Hot topic What unreleased demos and remixes do you think will be on Thriller 40 Disc 2?

[AlwaysThere]

Why is it not allowed to feel frustrated as a customer? You guys act like being a fan means to be happy with every s*** the Estate might put out. I have the right to expect quality over their releases and not blindly support them. I don't care if my neighbor has ever listened to Caroussel. But it's easily found over the internet and it occupies the place of something way more interesting in a commemorative release. Save the leaked demos for a compilation or whatever.

I don’t think anyone is saying you can’t be disappointed, but disappointment over to the choice to release leaked material is just nonsensical. We’d all love unheard tracks, but just because you chose to listen to these songs prematurely doesn’t invalidate them from a release.

Leaked or unleaked, Thriller era demos should be used on an anniversary reissue, not a compilation (which ultimately wouldn’t make a difference anyways, since the complaint of “why didn’t you use something totally unheard instead?” will be used regardless of the project).

 

[Ekans]

We’d all love unheard tracks, but just because you chose to listen to these songs prematurely doesn’t invalidate them from a release.

It's not my fault that the songs leaked. If the Estate did a good fan service I wouldn't be looking for leaks in the first place. It would be hypocritical of you to say that you've never listened to a leak or never held it as a personal favorite even for a moment. The fans who listen to leaks shouldn't be blamed for their disappointment as it is perfectly understandable.

 

[AlwaysThere]

It's not my fault that the songs leaked. If the Estate did a good fan service I wouldn't be looking for leaks in the first place. It would be hypocritical of you to say that you've never listened to a leak or never held it as a personal favorite even for a moment. The fans who listen to leaks shouldn't be blamed for their disappointment as it is perfectly understandable.

I was massively disappointed when Xscape wound up being 80% leaks, but I quickly realized that the vault is limited and just because I stupidly decided to listen to them doesn’t invalidate their worth.

I never said it’s your fault songs leaked. But there’s a whole world out there, and just because 5% of them decided to listen to these tracks illegally doesn’t mean suddenly they shouldn’t come out. It’s bigger than you or any one of us.

 

[filmandmusic]

Maybe we should change our fanbase name from moonwalkers to spoiled brats.

 

[Zack44]

Maybe we should change our fanbase name from moonwalkers to spoiled brats.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

MJ fans are just like the man himself: never satisfied with anything.

 

[IMWhizzle]

I don’t think anyone is saying you can’t be disappointed, but disappointment over to the choice to release leaked material is just nonsensical. We’d all love unheard tracks, but just because you chose to listen to these songs prematurely doesn’t invalidate them from a release.

Leaked or unleaked, Thriller era demos should be used on an anniversary reissue, not a compilation (which ultimately wouldn’t make a difference anyways, since the complaint of “why didn’t you use something totally unheard instead?” will be used regardless of the project).

The problem is that most of us are curious about unheard stuff from the Dangerous sessions onwards. Instead the estate is milking the fan base out by justifying another release of an album that was re-released countless times. For some reason they always succeed by framing the fan base as if this project is all new and special, it isn’t.

Unreleased post dangerous songs, concert material, 4K release of MJ’s short films, that’s what most of us want. Michael was always about being cutting edge and being innovative. The estate is just trying to release this album in with the sole purpose of reminding the mainstream public again that MJ made Thriller, succes guaranteed. I think it will flop, big time.

Now the Prince and other estates of icons for example, they know what their fans want. If only…

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

You’re too late, we had our fun last week. This week you have to complain about “carousel”. You gotta stay up to date man!

I'll get back here in one week to complain about Carousel. I'm using Internet Explorer.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

If 10bonus songs, which many have never been released, are awful, then how do you call Thriller25 or the 2001 special editions MJ himself released?

Big mistake imho. All the fans were already tired of the re-releases. We've always wanted new stuff. Since the 80s I've lost count of how many Billie Jean remixes, covers, mash-ups, megamixes I've heard. I understand that MJ wanted to get back with popularity and so on that's why he brought in Will I Am into that project, but honestly I'd prefer Mike did his own stuff even if it had meant less popularity.

 

[Admor "Funky" Pages]

At the level of a major record company like Sony-BMG it's important to find a balance between guaranteed worldwide revenues and an artistically attractive product. Leaked demos [of potential hits back in time!] that have been around for many years are a god's gift for marketing people. That buzz has created itself organically over the years. Many of the demo tracks that will figure on the bonus disc are all recordings in an advanced stage of pre-production. We can hardly speak of song ideas or rudimentary material still in an early laboratory stage here. They "obviously" lack some of Quincy Jones' final arrangement magic but the production is solidly rooted already. I wonder how many more recordings of this calibre and production maturity can be found in the Thriller vaults? Unlike Prince, Michael Jackson wasn't an all round musician who could almost create a finished track in a few days.

 

[ChrisC]

The absolute backflips of logic folk do on here to defend the output of this Estate.

A 34 track release that, so far, offers 4 unreleased tracks. You can dress that up any way you like, but the rest have been released - it's as simple as that. That is not a good ratio.

You don't have to search online for two seconds to trip over dozens upon dozens of examples of what other catalogue artists and estates are doing better when it comes to unreleased material on anniversary/special edition albums. Or indeed, as has been argued, a complete exhaustive collection of existing material of an album/era - we already know Thriller 40 can't fulfil that criteria. The Estate elected not to go that route.

The Estate constantly set expectations wrongly in their communications. We were promised pop up events and global activations and to date absolutely nothing has materialised. They suggested they were putting the tracks that were "previously in limited release" on the digital only album but neglected to say they would do the same with the physical album as well. They didn't explicitly say CD2 will be all unreleased material but when you set the criteria of the digital album it's natural for people to make inferences, notwithstanding that we know of enough unreleased material to fill that second disc, easily. The fact is the Estate chose not to include them, thus offering better value to fans, or they forgot those tracks even existed. And then that doesn't even touch on the fact that various online outlets listed each track on disc 2 as "previously unreleased" in the absence of a track title. I wonder where they got that impression!

I'm not prepared to write this project off just yet but it is imperative that the next 3 tracks announced are unreleased otherwise it's a no from me unfortunately. The Estate have the finances, time, talent and raw materials to produce an infinitely better product than it looks, 20 or so days out, they intend to.

Stoked for those remastered videos though. Ironically I'd drop 3 figures for a bluray physical release no questions asked. But they're probably just gonna give them away for free, compressed, on YouTube. Couldn't write it!

 

[filmandmusic]

I genuinely like the look of disc 2 I don’t own any of those tracks + it helps that I love all those songs dearly. I hate having to go on youtube to hear those songs. I would be disappointed if nite line and hot street are not part of it. I have been waiting for decades to have them on an album.

 

[DangerousGal91]

Keep in mind that I'm not dismissing anyone's concerns with this post.

But funnily enough, I peeked at the Prince subreddit a while ago out of sheer curiosity (I'm not a Prince "fan" in the strict sense of the word, although I do respect him as an artist) and I noticed a lot of people were complaining about his estate. This surprised me somewhat given the fact that most people in Michael Jackson fan spaces seem to regard the Prince estate positively, generally speaking.

Note that I myself have plenty of issues with Michael's estate (the Cascio tracks being the most obvious one) but saying "b-but how about this estate and that estate?" isn't exactly a good measuring point, because the grass seems to always be greener on the other side. Meanwhile the fans themselves have a different opinion.

Again I'm not dismissing anyone's concerns, I'm just saying that comparing different estates and their outputs isn't going to work. We should judge Michael's estate by itself, in my opinion.

That's really all I have to say with regards to this thread; for me, whatever songs we're getting I'm fine with, since 1) I don't listen to leaked tracks and didn't even know half of these existed, and 2) I'm mostly invested in Michael's legacy as an artist, so I haven't been paying super close attention to this release (I'm aware this might sound shocking to many). Still gonna stream the previously unreleased tracks, of course.

 

[MJbr2]

People here seem to be oblivious to it, but most Prince fans have serious complaints about how his estate turns the blind eye to his post-80s stuff. All of his 80s hit albums have been reissued in those crazy boxsets and stuff, but nothing else. It's literally the same around here with people complaining the Estate doesn't seem to care about Dangerous and onwards.
The grass is always greener on the other side.

 

[Nite Line]

Now the Prince and other estates of icons for example, they know what their fans want. If only…

I am a Prince fan, so I do frequently visit prince.org. His fans there are always complaining about his estate. But Michael fans are always saying that Prince fans are happy with his estate, which obviously isn't true.

You have every right to complain about MJ's estate, but do so without talking about how fans of other deceased artists are happy with their respective estates, when it is clearly nonsense.

 

[AlwaysThere]

I’ve peeked into various George Michael, Beatles, and Prince forums and articles, and the dissatisfaction among their fans is far more significant than anyone here might believe. They’re getting full, multiple disc box sets and people are still complaining about the decision to focus on this album, or the omission of that song, or incorrect classification and organization (apparently the Purple Rain box set includes multiple songs that should not be aligned with that album).

As @DangerousGal91, @Nite Line, @MJbr2, (and others) have said, the concept that all other estates are absolutely knocking it out of the park is just wildly false, because the conversations from within the fan community are mixed at best.

Obviously this doesn’t therefore mean the estate is doing an excellent job, but let’s stop saying, “What about them?” as a litmus test for anything.

 

[MJbr2]

I’ve peeked into various George Michael, Beatles, and Prince forums and articles, and the dissatisfaction among their fans is far more significant than anyone here might believe. They’re getting full, multiple disc box sets and people are still complaining about the decision to focus on this album, or the omission of that song, or incorrect classification and organization (apparently the Purple Rain box set includes multiple songs that should not be aligned with that album).

As @DangerousGal91, @Nite Line, @MJbr2, (and others) have said, the concept that all other estates are absolutely knocking it out of the park is just wildly false, because the conversations from within the fan community are mixed at best.

Obviously this doesn’t therefore mean the estate is doing an excellent job, but let’s stop saying, “What about them?” as a litmus test for anything.

Even some legacy artists that are still alive don't seem to care for the hardcore fanbase. As a Queen fan myself, I can say from experience that QPL (Queen Productions LTD) is also focused on the mainstream public, especially after the movie, and pretend to care about their hardcore fans. While they put out new stuff every now and then, production-wise it's a nightmare: imagine doing pitch-correction on the vocals of every unreleased track by the man who's often considered the greatest vocalist ever. I could go on and on about it, but that's not the point.

What I mean is that I have so many complaints about Branca and his infinite f**k-ups since '09, but it doesn't mean that all the other artists, either alive or their estates, are doing it 100% correctly. They are not. They're just as clueless as the MJ Estate is.

 

[SmoothGangsta]

Eh, I have a real problem with this "let's not compare the MJ Estate to anything else going on" attitude. Just seems a way to once again muffle any criticisms that could be had and act like they're doing better than they actually are. They don't exist in a bubble as much as some seem to think they do.

 

[MJbr2]

Eh, I have a real problem with this "let's not compare the MJ Estate to anything else going on" attitude. Just seems a way to once again muffle any criticisms that could be had and act like they're doing better than they actually are. They don't exist in a bubble as much as some seem to think they do.

I agree, there must be criticism. However, comparisons based on double standards is tough.
Okay, they're doing wrong on a lot of stuff, but that doesn't mean the others are always right.
There are right doings and stupid f**k-ups from all sides.

 

[DangerousGal91]

Eh, I have a real problem with this "let's not compare the MJ Estate to anything else going on" attitude. Just seems a way to once again muffle any criticisms that could be had and act like they're doing better than they actually are. They don't exist in a bubble as much as some seem to think they do.

It seems you're misunderstanding me a bit. I'm not dismissing anyone's concerns, in fact I think a lot of them are valid. I have plenty of criticisms towards the estate myself! I could list many; I've only listed one in my post, but I have much more. It's just that I think constant comparisons aren't productive, exactly because those other estates are also being criticized a lot. And I'm not dismissing any of that either (frankly I know little of what the Prince estate is up to, just that Prince fans aren't entirely happy either).

 

[SmoothGangsta]

I agree, there must be criticism. However, comparisons based on double standards is tough.
Okay, they're doing wrong on a lot of stuff, but that doesn't mean the others are always right.
There are right doings and stupid f**k-ups from all sides.

Well obviously other estate's get stuff wrong as well, I don't think anyone has claimed otherwise tbh. I just think that some people are now going "see! some fans aren't happy with what other estates do" so as to dismiss any actual valid comparisons that could be made between how they operate compared to the MJ estate and trying to tell people not to think about it.

Obviously some comparisons are outlandish, especially when it comes to the Prince estate, but there are many basic things the MJ estate does wrong that most others get right and I think it's fine to hold them to that when considering what they're doing and how they're doing it.

 

[MJbr2]

Well obviously other estate's get stuff wrong as well, I don't think anyone has claimed otherwise tbh. I just think that some people are now going "see! some fans aren't happy with what other estates do" so as to dismiss any actual valid comparisons that could be made between how they operate compared to the MJ estate and trying to tell people not to think about it.

Obviously some comparisons are outlandish, especially when it comes to the Prince estate, but there are many basic things the MJ estate does wrong that most others get right and I think it's fine to hold them to that when considering what they're doing and how they're doing it.

I get what you mean. I didn't mention the other estate's mistakes to dismiss valid complaints from us, not in the slightest.
Let's be real though, some people here really act like the Estate is always wrong and the others are always right. These are the folks I'm addressing.

Wanna trash the Estate for the basic stuff they still miss and need to be called out on? Count me in!

 

[telimens]

hey guys, we are talking about thriller 40, disc 2 as you can see on the subject. prince’s estate is really off topic.

 

[AlwaysThere]

The absolute backflips of logic folk do on here to defend the output of this Estate.

A 34 track release that, so far, offers 4 unreleased tracks. You can dress that up any way you like, but the rest have been released - it's as simple as that. That is not a good ratio.

You don't have to search online for two seconds to trip over dozens upon dozens of examples of what other catalogue artists and estates are doing better when it comes to unreleased material on anniversary/special edition albums. Or indeed, as has been argued, a complete exhaustive collection of existing material of an album/era - we already know Thriller 40 can't fulfil that criteria. The Estate elected not to go that route.

The Estate constantly set expectations wrongly in their communications. We were promised pop up events and global activations and to date absolutely nothing has materialised. They suggested they were putting the tracks that were "previously in limited release" on the digital only album but neglected to say they would do the same with the physical album as well. They didn't explicitly say CD2 will be all unreleased material but when you set the criteria of the digital album it's natural for people to make inferences, notwithstanding that we know of enough unreleased material to fill that second disc, easily. The fact is the Estate chose not to include them, thus offering better value to fans, or they forgot those tracks even existed. And then that doesn't even touch on the fact that various online outlets listed each track on disc 2 as "previously unreleased" in the absence of a track title. I wonder where they got that impression!

I'm not prepared to write this project off just yet but it is imperative that the next 3 tracks announced are unreleased otherwise it's a no from me unfortunately. The Estate have the finances, time, talent and raw materials to produce an infinitely better product than it looks, 20 or so days out, they intend to.

Stoked for those remastered videos though. Ironically I'd drop 3 figures for a bluray physical release no questions asked. But they're probably just gonna give them away for free, compressed, on YouTube. Couldn't write it!

Whilst I agree that an exhaustive, complete examination of the era’s material is long overdue, something tells me that the 50th anniversary would be the wiser time. And even then, for such a compilation to be truly comprehensive, it would have to contain all of the leaked and previously released material, which countless users have already found fault with on Thriller 40. I’m on your side completely, but the selection of material is very much “damned if you do, damned if you don’t,” especially for an era that, by all accounts, has very little in the way of unheard and usable material.

The only reissues that I could objectively call worth the discs they’re printed on are those from the Prince estate. Everything else, from George Michael to Mariah Carey to the Beatles to Usher, are varying shades of underwhelming. Of course, this isn’t to then say, “See? The estate is doing great!” But the insistence that other groups, artists, and estates are all hitting home runs woefully ignores reality.

As for the contents of the second disc, every officially-sanctioned press release has emphasized that the material would consist of “bonus rarities and demos.” Sure, the phrasing of “tracks in limited release” was a bit questionable, but calling that intentionally misleading is certainly a stretch. The digital release seems focused on alternate cuts and remixes, whereas disc two is outtakes and non-album cuts (some of which are also in limited release, but hence qualify as “rarities”). I just think it’s ridiculous to pin blame on the estate for the public assigning everything on disc two as being “previously unreleased” when at no point did anyone involved say as much. Why should we pander to people who can’t/won’t properly read a press release…?

Again, I’m not trying to dismiss general disinterest in the project or diminish criticism towards it. But, with all due respect, these angles don’t hold much water in my opinion.

 

[Simijacksonfan]

Ich war massiv enttäuscht, als Xscape zu 80 % leckte, aber mir wurde schnell klar, dass der Tresorraum begrenzt ist und nur weil ich mich dumm entschieden habe, ihnen zuzuhören, macht das ihren Wert nicht ungültig.

Ich habe nie gesagt, dass es deine Schuld ist, dass Songs durchgesickert sind. Aber es gibt eine ganze Welt da draußen, und nur weil 5 % von ihnen beschlossen haben, diese Tracks illegal zu hören, heißt das nicht, dass sie plötzlich nicht mehr herauskommen sollten. Es ist größer als Sie oder jeder von uns.

But one question you have to ask yourself about the leaked songs songs like she's trouble, hot street, starlight, night line have been easily found on YouTube for over a decade and the estate and Sony have to put up with the reproach why They didn't take better care to get rid of them on YouTube I mean they've been on the internet for over 1 decade so don't be surprised if there's a certain disappointment then that it all could have been prevented had YouTube been better controlled by sony

 

[AlwaysThere]

But one question you have to ask yourself about the leaked songs songs like she's trouble, hot street, starlight, night line have been easily found on YouTube for over a decade and the estate and Sony have to put up with the reproach why They didn't take better care to get rid of them on YouTube I mean they've been on the internet for over 1 decade so don't be surprised if there's a certain disappointment then that it all could have been prevented had YouTube been better controlled by sony

“If MJ and the estate actually cared about these songs, why didn’t they put in the effort to take them down?” is a very weird argument to make. Once something lands online, there’s no removing it, especially in the early 2000s when the internet was very much in its infancy. Take it off YouTube, it’s still very public.

 

[KOPV]

It

But one question you have to ask yourself about the leaked songs songs like she's trouble, hot street, starlight, night line have been easily found on YouTube for over a decade and the estate and Sony have to put up with the reproach why They didn't take better care to get rid of them on YouTube I mean they've been on the internet for over 1 decade so don't be surprised if there's a certain disappointment then that it all could have been prevented had YouTube been better controlled by sony

It's the listeners decision to listen to an unreleased song, in that choice comes the understanding if it's released, he/she misses out of the personal excitement they may have gotten when it was released. Being upset at a song being released that has been leaked and you've decided to listen is like watching spoilers for movies and getting upset that the movie was too predictable when watching it after..

 

[Ekans]

It's funny how some ppl have suddenly become self proclaimed examples of a good moral compass saying that they don't ever listen to leaks, when we all know that threads that contain leaks in 2000 Watts are the hottest ones. Now that's some hypocrisy. You honestly deserve the bad treatment the Estate does regarding MJ's legacy especially when they think they can release any s*** and the fans will just accept and be ok with it.

 

[filmandmusic]

It's funny how some ppl have suddenly become self proclaimed examples of a good moral compass saying that they don't ever listen to leaks, when we all know that threads that contain leaks in 2000 Watts are the hottest ones. Now that's some hypocrisy. You honestly deserve the bad treatment the Estate does regarding MJ's legacy especially when they think they can release any s*** and the fans will just accept and be ok with it.

That’s not me, I jump on leaks like a tiger to its prey.

 

[kreen]

That’s not me, I jump on leaks like a tiger to its prey.

So do I. Leakers are doing the job the Estate should be doing. Leakers want the world to hear MJ’s music before we’re all dead and it’s too late. The Estate wants to make money for the next 100 years repackaging the same stuff again, this time as a musical, now as a biopic, this time as a circus show, now as a hologram tour, and each time releasing one or two tidbits to get fans to shell out their money again.

 

[kreen]

I genuinely like the look of disc 2 I don’t own any of those tracks + it helps that I love all those songs dearly. I hate having to go on youtube to hear those songs. I would be disappointed if nite line and hot street are not part of it. I have been waiting for decades to have them on an album.

You know you can rip songs off Youtube and burn them on a CD, right? I made a CD with all of those leaked Thriller tracks years ago.