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Marcel Avram talks about a recent meeting with MJ

KOPV said:
not specifically talking about Avram.. BUT, Michael has always been able to seperate business with friendship.. He's had legal battles with many people that he considers friends..
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...maybe that's the problem, you know what I mean? He is too powerful and in control of too many assets for that to be a rule of thumb.
 
That translation lost me, hence I'm not giving much credence to these comments!

Michael is gonna do what the heck he wants to do and everybody will just have to accept it!
 
KOPV said:
I have said this SO MANY TIMES.. But my dream performance set for Michaels 'comeback' would be..

2 concerts on each populated country..
*Average 2 concerts a month (spread out within a year)
* 14 concerts in total

This will do many good things:
1) He does not like to travel all the time for tours.. Well he'd only HAVE to travel once a month.
2) It gives him more time to rehears in between concerts
3) He can spend more time with family (children)
4) Between concerts he would have time to do what he wants.. (videos/time off/other promotion stuff)
5) It would be the first concert set EVER to land on each populated continent
6) Everyone would get a chance to see him that wants to, but keeps it still a rarity

Then his last two concerts would end in the United States. in a big place in Vegas or somewhere near. The LAST concert could be an HBO special..

On this HBO special durring the Motown Medly, The Jacksons suprize everyone and perform with him.. (opening act could be Janet) as she said she would love to do..

By this time over a year will go by from the albums release date.. He could release the HBO special on DVD, as a set with the album.. Raising album sales even MORE...
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Wow, you've got it all figured out for him. Now that's what I call thinking ahead. :lol:^_^
 
I really like KOPV's touring plan. It would be marvelous to see Janet opening for her brothers. I would get that ticket in a heartbeat!
 
KOPV said:
I have said this SO MANY TIMES.. But my dream performance set for Michaels 'comeback' would be..

2 concerts on each populated country..
*Average 2 concerts a month (spread out within a year)
* 14 concerts in total

This will do many good things:
1) He does not like to travel all the time for tours.. Well he'd only HAVE to travel once a month.
2) It gives him more time to rehears in between concerts
3) He can spend more time with family (children)
4) Between concerts he would have time to do what he wants.. (videos/time off/other promotion stuff)
5) It would be the first concert set EVER to land on each populated continent
6) Everyone would get a chance to see him that wants to, but keeps it still a rarity

Then his last two concerts would end in the United States. in a big place in Vegas or somewhere near. The LAST concert could be an HBO special..

On this HBO special durring the Motown Medly, The Jacksons suprize everyone and perform with him.. (opening act could be Janet) as she said she would love to do..

By this time over a year will go by from the albums release date.. He could release the HBO special on DVD, as a set with the album.. Raising album sales even MORE...
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Great Idea! It's a relaxing schedule, and he can spend more time visiting the country, go around interesting places, enjoy life!
 
maybe that's the problem, you know what I mean? He is too powerful and in control of too many assets for that to be a rule of thumb.
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exactly.to nice or to naive or both
 
whisper said:
...maybe that's the problem, you know what I mean? He is too powerful and in control of too many assets for that to be a rule of thumb.
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I agree. I wish MJ had not got ten rid of his father. Those dark people would have never been around had he kept Joseph on in some capacity. The minute he got rid of his father and the rest of his family all the siucckers and parasites flocked to him like fleas to cats. All hell broke loose after that.:)
 
that crap only started happening in the 90's long after joe left the scene
 
elusive moonwalker said:
that crap only started happening in the 90's long after joe left the scene
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Yep. It also happened after MJ left home, The sharks flocked to Neverland where they wouldn't have got a foothold in Encino.
MJ was exposed to these fools and they took advantage of him. MJ had never been exposed to these people before. This was a first for him. He trusted the wrong people and they turned his life upside down. Even his ex wife mentioned his inability to judge character. I hope he is in good hands now. I feel he is in a better place. He is friends with Jessie Jackson and I trust Jessie. He isn't looking for fame and fortune, He already got that.
 
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you could say the crap started after dileo left the scene and morey etc came on board. i dont see how joe or him going to neverkand had anything to do with it. joe left the business side of mj in the early 80s 10 years befroe things started going bad. and he he bought neverland in the late 80's
 
elusive moonwalker said:
you could say the crap started after dileo left the scene and morey etc came on board. i dont see how joe or him going to neverkand had anything to do with it. joe left the business side of mj in the early 80s 10 years befroe things started going bad. and he he bought neverland in the late 80's
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These type of things take time to develop and take many stages and maybe years. They didn't just rush in all at once. They needed time to settle in and worm their way in, this could take years. Anyway,you could say we can agree to disagree. :)
 
i know u are trying to say that everything fell apart after joe left being his manager but the facts/timeline clearly show that is wrong.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
i know u are trying to say that everything fell apart after joe left being his manager but the facts/timeline clearly show that is wrong.
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I did not say that it fell apart after,what I am sayong is that the door was wide open for anyone to come in and take advantage of him and through the door they came. There was no strong person who could say No to him. His father may have said no to him, but more than that many people who were hanging around wouldn't have been welcomed because they would have had to go through Joe and they wouldn't have wanted that. The door swang wide open after joe left and to be honest, it doesn't really matter how soon they came in, but in they came.
 
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Oh come one Joseph Jackson used to call up Michael to get money out of him whenever his bad business deals with sour. That's a fact. He did the same thing to Michael. He wouldn't do it now of course but he did over the years.
 
Irish Flower said:
Oh come one Joseph Jackson used to call up Michael to get money out of him whenever his bad business deals with sour. That's a fact. He did the same thing to Michael. He wouldn't do it now of course but he did over the years.
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I would much prefer to know that Joseph was getting money off of Michael than the parasites that ended up sucking him dry. At least Joseph did something for him those people did nothing. And so what if Joseph calls him, If a father can't call him multi- millionare son, then who should he call? I suppose you would prefer to see him give it to Delio than to his father, well I would have prefered it the other way round, MJ has said himself that his father has never stolen from him.:)
 
Don't be silly. You are missing the point.

So obviously it's fine to use your own son whenever you make a bad business deal over and over again. I guess Michael is just a meal ticket then. It's ok Michael even according to your fans.
 
Irish Flower said:
Don't be silly. You are missing the point.

So obviously it's fine to use your own son whenever you make a bad business deal over and over again. I guess Michael is just a meal ticket then. It's ok Michael even according to your fans.
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I don't even know what you are talking about and what has Joesph's failed business deal got to do with this? Joseph has had failed business deals, Michael has had failed business deals. I have had failed business deals. More than 50% of busness fail in their first year.
By the way, some of Josephs business deals did pay off. he gambled his wages on guitars for his kids, he signed them up with Motown, and he took a big decision to leave Motown for Epic so that his kids could be more creative. He took his kids to Vegas and on tv, we are still enjoying those shows.
My point is that the slime-balls that got to MJ and stole his money and scandalise his good name wouldn't have been 9 miles near MJ had Joseph been around. Only after Joseph left, did they get in and notice how they deliberately kept the door close so that his family couldn't contact him except through them. Both ex-wives mentioned the same thing. They kept the people that cared about MJ far away from him so that they couldn't reach him.
 
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AW: Re: Marcel Avram talks about a recent meeting with MJ

elusive moonwalker said:
you could say the crap started after dileo left the scene and morey etc came on board. i dont see how joe or him going to neverkand had anything to do with it. joe left the business side of mj in the early 80s 10 years befroe things started going bad. and he he bought neverland in the late 80's
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Well, the crap didn't start until after the HIStory tour onward! Before that everything seemed fine! Apart from the first allegations, which was just unfortunate and not really any business associates fault! Michael got involved with that family!
 
Re: AW: Re: Marcel Avram talks about a recent meeting with MJ

PatrickS77 said:
Well, the crap didn't start until after the HIStory tour onward! Before that everything seemed fine! Apart from the first allegations, which was just unfortunate and not really any business associates fault! Michael got involved with that family!
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Things don't just start overnight though. It would have taken years to develop but had certain things not had happened to let it happen, it wouldn't have happened. MJ said, himself that he was lonely and isolated. His parents complained that he was unreachable. In 93, he was so isolated from his family, that it was said that they travelled to see him and was unable to. LMP, mentioned the people around him at the time of his marriage to her., Don't think they were going to show their evil hands straight away. They needed to earn his trust and confidence and that could take years. It was a long term plan not something that happened overnight. But Being isolated from the people that really cared was the trigger.
 
AW: Re: AW: Re: Marcel Avram talks about a recent meeting with MJ

Oh please! Your statement was

Datsymay said:
I agree. I wish MJ had not got ten rid of his father. Those dark people would have never been around had he kept Joseph on in some capacity. The minute he got rid of his father and the rest of his family all the siucckers and parasites flocked to him like fleas to cats. All hell broke loose after that.:)
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And that was not the case! For at least 10+ years everything went the way it should go!

And about your "long term plan".... there was no "snake" who masterminded this from the moment Michael got rid of Joseph! Nobody stayed on long enough to mastermind anything! Certain people came in and Michael fell for them! And there is no saying that Joseph wouldn't have fell too for some of these people!

And for Michael being isolated! He's a grown ass man, if he let's that happen to him then that's his own fault! And that you emancipate yourself from your parents is just natural! Everybody does that!

So that "What if" game is kinda pointless! It happend and there is nothing to change about! I do wish though the last 10 years wouldn't have happened... they would have been easily avoidable!
 
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Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: Marcel Avram talks about a recent meeting with MJ

PatrickS77 said:
Oh please! Your statement was



And that was not the case! For at least 10+ years everything went the way it should go!

And about your "long term plan".... there was no "snake" who masterminded this from the moment Michael got rid of Joseph! Nobody stayed on long enough to mastermind anything! Certain people came in and Michael fell for them! And there is no saying that Joseph wouldn't have fell too for some of these people!

And for Michael being isolated! He's a grown ass man, if he let's that happen to him then that's his own fault! And that you emancipate yourself from your parents is just natural! Everybody does that!

So that "What if" game is kinda pointless! It happend and there is nothing to change about! I do wish though the last 10 years wouldn't have happened... they would have been easily avoidable!
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This is the mistake some of you people make about MJ. He is not like everybody. He has had a different lifestyle and has lived a sheltered lifestyle. Furthermore, he was never treated like everybody else. That leaves him vulnerable to people who wanted fame and fortune and were happy to ride his coat tail. HE NEEDED PROTECTION from these people. He didn't get it. Just because he is a grown man doesn't mean he was not vulnerable. How do you know who these people are when you have never had to deal with them, MJ never went out and sought his own contract and secure his own career. He had everything done for him as a child. His business was always taken care of. For the first time he was having to deal with real people and he let the dogs in. It took the trial to get rid of them, and it was even T-Mez and Randy who got rid of some of them and look how they took revenge on him when they were let go?::(
 
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AW: Marcel Avram talks about a recent meeting with MJ

Whom are you telling that?? Do you think that's new to me?? You said he was being isolated! I said, if he is being isolated against his will and let's it happen and doesn't do anything about it, then that's his fault! He is a grown up man... he pays the people supposedly isolating him... he knows how to work a telephone!

And as for knowing whom to trust and recognizing people's intention and being cautios, that's a different thing! But even people living in the real world sometimes are being taken for a ride!

My point though is, he did well with DiLeo, he did well with Gallin and Morey and after they where let go it kinda went on a downward spiral with rapidly changing managers and advisors and all kind of strange people coming in!
 
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Re: AW: Marcel Avram talks about a recent meeting with MJ

PatrickS77 said:
Whom are you telling that?? Do you think that's new to me?? You said he was being isolated! I said, if he is being isolated against his will and let's it happen and doesn't do anything about it, then that's his fault! He is a grown up man... he pays the people supposedly isolating him... he knows how to work a telephone!

And as for knowing whom to trust and recognizing people's intention and being cautios, that's a different thing! But even people living in the real world sometimes are being taken for a ride!

My point though is, he did well with DiLeo, he did well with Gallin and Morey and after they where let go it kinda went on a downward spiral with rapidly changing managers and advisors and all kind of strange people coming in!
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I usually try to stay out of these discussions because a. I don't know what happened b. I feel uncomfortable as an armchair advisor and c. Life is usually too complicated to stick a label on an event and say you are done.

I do want to add just one thjing to this discussion however. Sociopaths (alternately called psychopaths in the literature) are able to effectively lie to and deceive even the top psychiatrists in the specialty that studies them. Because they are without concience they can lie without giving themselves away. And yet to be whole people have to trust others. Given Michael's wealth and fame and how that alone colors the way even well meaning people react around him what happened is a shame but understandable. I do not think it is fair to say that it is Michael's fault. You are right however that Michael is not the only person to have ever been taken for a ride by people like that and it is for the very reason that they are so good at it. Very smart and savy people are taken in sometimes.
 
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Datsymay said:
I think it is an interesting comment as well, if true. It would seem that MJ isn't as hungry as some would seem to want us to believe. He isn't rushing his album, and he isn't rushing to go back on the road.:)
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I disagree! I think that since 2005, he's been chilling out for a while, but he's also been writing music a lot of music as well, and I believe that he has a masterpiece in the works--he just wants it to be the best it can be, by his standards.
 
i think Michael is looking for a change,something he didn't do.cool!
 
Michael needed to get rid of Joe. His career was becoming far too vast for someone like Joe to handle, he needed someone who really understood the marketing and business end of the industry, and the two of them were simply on different plains in terms of ideas regarding artistic endeavours and promotion. Michael has been taken advantage of, and I don't trust Marcel Avram or any of these people. But I believe Michael's been taken advantage of because he is a trusting person, someone who is willing to give the benifit of the doubt and someone who doesn't believe in revenge or any of that kind of thing. He doesn't hold grudges, so to speak. People are vicious and if they see an opportunity to take advantage of you, they will. Michael's mistake is in believeing in people's capacity for good and in their willingness to do the right thing. He beleives every person to be, essentially, good. He himself has said this. And it isn't something he just preaches, it's something he lives. I don't think he's being stupid. I think he's being an idealist. Sort of, if he shows kindness and good will towards others, they in turn will find those same qualities in their own hearts. The mistake really doesn't lie with Michael but with other people's inability or refusal to do the same as he and treat him with the same love and kindness he does for them. I think, whether he was around certain people or not, because of his perception on life and on people, he would have been hurt one way or the other. That's more a statement of man kind and society then it is on Michael Jackson. In fact, I've always said that Michael is really a case example of how human nature works, not in himself, but in how people have reacted to and treated him.
 
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Re: AW: Re: Marcel Avram talks about a recent meeting with MJ

PatrickS77 said:
Well, Avram sued Michael already in '93 and then they did the HIStory Tour, the Michael Jackson & Friends and the supposed Millennium concerts together! So what?!
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Yeah, and I doubt that MJ would make the same mistake twice. Like I said, I doubt MJ talked to that clown. That is just me. Also, I did not like that "so what" comment. You can "so what" sit down somewhere!

Wannabe - on point. Also, Mike has a hard time of saying the word "no". A lot of nice people have a hard time saying that. Now, I am not saying that he should say "no" everytime he gets and offer, but say "no" when he really wants to. Maybe if he did that, he would have less issues.
 
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AW: Marcel Avram talks about a recent meeting with MJ

Well, how about you sitting down somewhere? It's not my problem if you don't like my comments!

All I'm saying is, Avram sued Michael once and they made up and successfully worked together again! So what? Who's telling that it couldn't happen again? It's all business! If Avram is the best for the job!? Maybe Avram had valid reasons to sue! Avram is not just some concert promoter! He is one of the top 3 german (or maybe even european) concert promoters in the past 35+ years! He's worked with everybody who is anybody! Regardless of what I think of him personally, he has his work cut out for him!
 
I don't think it's a matter of "proving himself" its the experience of seeing him live...many people never have gotten that chance. MJ's looking at it all the wrong way...of course he doesn't need to "prove himself"
 
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