Discussion about Charges against Dr. Murray / all threads merged

Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

I'm worried that if the charge is harsher then he might walk free.
 
Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

I'm worried that if the charge is harsher then he might walk free.
And that's exactly the same concern T-Mez had.

Aside from the fact, that you just can't march up in that piece, demanding that the charges be changed, because Michael Jackson's fans are upset, you need additional hard evidence and if Oxman was a good attorney, he would know that.

He's just blowing smoke, as far as I'm concerned.

IF THAT'S EVEN HIM. For all we know, this is somebody else's campaign and they just attached Oxman's name to it, because they know he loves the limelight and wouldn't mind (maybe).
 
Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

deleted, wrong thread-
 
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Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

i doubt there will be a plea theres really nothing to plea it down to. and the problem with the quote you replied to it at this stage we dont have a time of death. and imo if they had a strong TOD.not one that could be manipulated by defence experts then charges would have come along time ago. and the filled upto the eyenall comment comes from oxmans doesnt it? well that says it all

The propofol being in his eye's comes from the official autopsy report. Anyone want to take a guess a to how it got in his stomach? Was Michael drinking it? This is something that makes no sense at all.
 
Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

1. Forget who says this, the name is irrelevant. But if it's for justice for Michael, that's what counts. Do you love Michael? Do you want his spirit in peace? Then fight!
2. Even with 2nd degree murder charge, with an impartial judge and jury and no money exchange/ threats behind the scenes, Murray WILL get convicted. Suffice to look at the publicly available evidence!! It's so obvious, don't tell me he might walk free! Again, given no funky things behind the scenes
 
Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

1. Forget who says this, the name is irrelevant. But if it's for justice for Michael, that's what counts. Do you love Michael? Do you want his spirit in peace? Then fight!
2. Even with 2nd degree murder charge, with an impartial judge and jury and no money exchange/ threats behind the scenes, Murray WILL get convicted. Suffice to look at the publicly available evidence!! It's so obvious, don't tell me he might walk free! Again, given no funky things behind the scenes

If there's going to be a fight, per se, then it needs to be directed towards finding NEW/MORE evidence to support a new charge. Otherwise it just ain't gonna wash, no matter how loud we scream.

Bottomline, new evidence = new charges. Without that, nothing is liable to change, that's just how it works.
 
Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

For the record...I am not a big Brian Oxman fan, in fact I want to slap him every time I hear him mention MJ's "alleged" drug use. I am a Michael Jackson fan and at this point he is all we have. He is speaking out with the family...No one else is doing a damn thing to help Michael. So Intel someone else steps in to help..I will be throwing my support behind anyone who is willing to speak up about these absurd Charges of, not manslaughter but involuntary manslaughter. Meaning no malice intended, BS!
 
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Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

We can not use the excuse that Murray was Just a dumb ass doctor, his schooling would reflect otherwise:

- 1983 He got his Bachelor of science degree at Texas Southern University
- 1989 He got his Doctor of Medicine degree at Maharry Medical Collage Nashville
- 1992 He got his Internal Medicine degree at Loma Linda University Medical Center California
- 1995 He got his Cardiology degree at the University of Arizona Medical Center.

He is licensed in three states:


- Texas, this license expires on August 31th 2010
- Nevada, this license expires on June 30th 2011
- California, this license expires on February 28th 2011

With this schooling he would have at least known Propofol would and should only be administered in a hospital while a patient is monitored by breathing machines and CPR is to be done on a hard surface not a bed.
 
Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

I have mixed feelings about this situation.

Clearly T-Mez knows what he's talking about, so I'm inclined to rely on his opinion; however I do believe there's enough evidence in the coroner's report alone for a second degree murder conviction... hence want to support what this idiot Oxman is asking for.

I strongly think the DA's decision to charge him with IM is simply because they rather play it safe, they know the world is watching want a open-shut case, NOT because there's not enough evidence to back up a higher charge.
We need to analyze the situation carefully and read and re-read the coroner's report before making our minds.
 
Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

1. Forget who says this, the name is irrelevant.

Is that in any way similar to "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain"

(courtesy of the Wizard of Oz)
 
Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

has anyone cntacted the D.A and asked why murder 2 based on gross negligence was not filed against murray as the charges are very similar to IM. if pp want to fight to get the charges changed we need to know the reasons (their reasons) as to why they have gone the way they have. same with the addedcharges such as obstruction of justice
 
Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

There are different legal variations of murder, known as degrees. Degrees of murder vary by the gravity (seriousness) of the offense (usually measured by the intent of the perpetrator) and the sentence assigned to that offense. For example, murder in the first degree, or first-degree murder, carries the sternest sentences and is usually reserved for murders committed with premeditation or extreme cruelty.

Manslaughter is also a form of criminal homicide. The difference between murder and manslaughter is in the element of intent. In order to commit voluntary manslaughter, a person must have committed a homicide, but have acted in the "heat of passion." This mental state must have been caused by legally sufficient provocation that would cause a reasonable person of ordinary temperament to lose self-control. To convict a person of manslaughter, it must be proved that the person who committed the homicide had adequate provocation (this cannot involve words alone), acted in the heat of passion, and lacked the opportunity to cool that passion. There must also be a connection between the incident of provocation, the heat of passion, and the act that caused the homicide.

Involuntary manslaughter is manslaughter resulting from a failure to perform a legal duty expressly required to safeguard human life, from the commission of an unlawful act not amounting to a felony, or from the commission of an act involving a risk of injury or death that is done in an unlawful, reckless, or grossly negligent manner. Involuntary manslaughter is a relatively new legal concept. Its exact definition varies greatly by jurisdiction, and is sometimes known as second- or third-degree manslaughter.

In order to convict someone of either murder or manslaughter, the distinct elements of each crime must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt, and the actions of the perpetrator cannot be explained or excused by any legal defense, excuse, or justification. Murder and manslaughter also differ in the sentences imposed for each crime. As the perpetrator of manslaughter is assumed to have evidenced less mental culpability, the sentence for manslaughter is usually less than that for murder.
 
Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

There is enough neglect for the human life found in the autopsy, 911 call, and actions by Murray on June 25 when he disappeared to warrant a Murder 2 charge. Now that the media have been going on so much about Involuntary Manslaughter, jurors minds will now be influenced and probably wont convict him of anything higher than Manslaughter. The "Justice" System is a joke.
 
Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

As far as I know murder charges require an intent before the action. Basically it means that Murray had to come to MJ's house that night planning that he will harm or kill MJ.

If there's no intent than you can only charge people with manslaughter. It can be voluntary or involuntary.

Voluntary is for the crimes that happen with the heat of passion, where you have temporary insanity and do something that you don't normally do.
Involuntary is when you have no intention but the person accidentally dies.

Here the question is intent. Did he intended to harm or kill MJ and can you prove it?

Apparently DA do not think that there's a intent and if they charge him with murder 2 and cannot prove intent he will walk free. If Oxman or anybody wants to bring murder2 charges they must have the evidence to show that there was an intent.

T-Mez has been on several shows now and he's basically saying similar things that you go for a lesser but a certain charge than risking a not guilty verdict with a higher but not provable charge.

On a personally note of course I would want Murray to be behind bars as long as he lives but taking into consideration the reality and the law it will probably not happen.
 
Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

intent before the action.

I don't think murder 2 requires that, someone posted what it meant and it was basically gross negligence and disregard.
 
Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

s far as I know murder charges require an intent before the action.
murder 2 based on gross disregard in cali doesnt require intent. its pretty much the same as IM in its definition
 
Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

murder 2 based on gross disregard in cali doesnt require intent. its pretty much the same as IM in its definition


Because they are so close by definition, I think with murder 2, you have to prove some form of malice. Simply saying he was grossly negligent is not enough to convict most people to sent to prison for 5 to 10 years. Especially a doctor.
 
Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

As far as I can see from california law, murder requires intent. If anyone has the opposite info can you please share.

CALIFORNIA PENAL CODE
SECTION 187-199

187. Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, or a fetus, with malice aforethought.

188. Such malice may be express or implied. It is express when there is manifested a deliberate intention unlawfully to take away the life of a fellow creature. It is implied, when no considerable provocation appears, or when the circumstances attending the killing show an abandoned and malignant heart.

192. Manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without malice. It is of three kinds:
(a) Voluntary--upon a sudden quarrel or heat of passion.
(b) Involuntary--in the commission of an unlawful act, not amounting to felony; or in the commission of a lawful act which might produce death, in an unlawful manner, or without due caution and circumspection.
(c) Vehicular

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=187-199
 
Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

the gross disregard is an added bit that is in place in cali. its been posted many times
 
Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

Because they are so close by definition, I think with murder 2, you have to prove some form of malice. Simply saying he was grossly negligent is not enough to convict most people to sent to prison for 5 to 10 years. Especially a doctor.

Yep. In California a standard of implied or express malice must be proved to charge for Murder 2. In Murray's case, the D.A. would have went for implied malice.
 
Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

Yep. In California a standard of implied or express malice must be proved to charge for Murder 2. In Murray's case, the D.A. would have went for implied malice.

What would it take to prove implied malice?
 
Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

We can not use the excuse that Murray was Just a dumb ass doctor, his schooling would reflect otherwise:

- 1983 He got his Bachelor of science degree at Texas Southern University
- 1989 He got his Doctor of Medicine degree at Maharry Medical Collage Nashville
- 1992 He got his Internal Medicine degree at Loma Linda University Medical Center California
- 1995 He got his Cardiology degree at the University of Arizona Medical Center.
He was pretty old before his ''career'' got rolling, a late starter, Bachelor's degree at 30? WTF?
What did he do till 30? Besides going around sleeping with women?
 
Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

Implied malice - murder. Malice is implied when either (a) no considerable provocation appears, or (b) circumstances indicate an "abandoned and malignant heart." The latter refers to doing an act with a (a) wanton disregard for human life, or an act involving a high degree of probability that death will result, or (b) conscious disregard for human life, i.e., doing something dangerous to human life, with actual knowledge of the danger and conscious disregard of the fact that the act endangers the life of someone.

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/crim.html#Death as second degree murder
 
Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

What would it take to prove implied malice?


Malice means he went with the intent to cause harm. Like if you go over someone's house to beat them up and you end up killing them. Driven under the influence could also be called malice because it is usually couple with assault with a deadly weapon. I think that is what they mean when they say negligent to the point of malice.
 
Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

What would it take to prove implied malice?

See below

Implied malice - murder. Malice is implied when either (a) no considerable provocation appears, or (b) circumstances indicate an "abandoned and malignant heart." The latter refers to doing an act with a (a) wanton disregard for human life, or an act involving a high degree of probability that death will result, or (b) conscious disregard for human life, i.e., doing something dangerous to human life, with actual knowledge of the danger and conscious disregard of the fact that the act endangers the life of someone.

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/crim.html#Death as second degree murder

What Murray did could be regarded as doing something dangerous to a human life, with actual knowledge of the danger and consciously disregarding the fact endangered Michael's life. However did he show MALICE? That's the hard part.
 
Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

Implied malice - murder. Malice is implied when either (a) no considerable provocation appears, or (b) circumstances indicate an "abandoned and malignant heart." The latter refers to doing an act with a (a) wanton disregard for human life, or an act involving a high degree of probability that death will result, or (b) conscious disregard for human life, i.e., doing something dangerous to human life, with actual knowledge of the danger and conscious disregard of the fact that the act endangers the life of someone.

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/crim.html#Death as second degree murder


Very thin line. It is easy to convict fans and family that he was negligent to the point of being malice, but can you prove it to 12 supposedly impartial jurors. I think Murray's case should be called killing by stupidly.
 
Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

the gross disregard is an added bit that is in place in cali. its been posted many times

gross negligence is actually covered by involuntary manslaughter. This is taken from jury instructions: Involuntary manslaughter is an unintentional killing that happened during the commission of a misdemeanor or because of gross negligence (carelessness)

Seeing your next post I guess you are trying to say that it is possible to charge him with murder 2 by stating implied malice.
 
Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

the malice bit is something i dont get interms of the way this law is written. maybe im reading it wrong but the wording of that implies to me u dont have to find actual malice on its own. but the actions of the below equal in the eyes of the law a degree of malice regadless of whether there was actual malice or not in the normal definition of the word. hence why it says Malice is implied if. and below is one of those things. so the action was so negligent it basically implies malice. so murray can be charged with murder 2 even if he did not have any malice under the normal defintion but his actions were so neglignet it implies he acted with some kind of malice

wanton disregard for human life, or an act involving a high degree of probability that death will result, or (b) conscious disregard for human life, i.e., doing something dangerous to human life, with actual knowledge of the danger and conscious disregard of the fact that the act endangers the life of someone.
 
Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

the malice bit is something i dont get interms of the way this law is written. maybe im reading it wrong but the wording of that implies to me u dont have to find actual malice on its own. but the actions of the below equal in the eyes of the law a degree of malice regadless of whether there was actual malice or not in the normal definition of the word. hence why it says Malice is implied if. and below is one of those things. so the action was so negligent it basically implies malice. so murray can be charged with murder 2 even if he did not have any malice under the normal defintion but his actions were so neglignet it implies he acted with some kind of malice

wanton disregard for human life, or an act involving a high degree of probability that death will result, or (b) conscious disregard for human life, i.e., doing something dangerous to human life, with actual knowledge of the danger and conscious disregard of the fact that the act endangers the life of someone.

That's exactly what I've been thinking, but the legal wording makes it difficult to understand. The law provides too many overlaping terms whithin different charges.
 
Re: Brian Oxman is asking for fans help and support to get charges against Murray changed.

That's exactly what I've been thinking, but the legal wording makes it difficult to understand. The law provides too many overlaping terms whithin different charges.


Which is why we have lawyers. :lol:
 
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