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Discussion about Charges against Dr. Murray / all threads merged

Re: Unappropriate Charges In Case

kasume said:
I have been speaking with someone in the medical field who's been looking into all this. This person works with medical examiners, coroners and has credentials to pronounce and participate on teams of investigation.

the most unconscionable action-so unbelievably hazardous and frankly should be looked at as way beyond what so far Murray is charged with - and should be at least voluntary-rather than involuntary MS-I don't believe the prosecution would be over reaching seeking a conviction for M2.
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how about adding the opinion of someone from the legal field to the mix? (Remember what T-Mez said?)

although I will not argue with any medical expert, I believe that it's important to remember that the charges also depends on "what can be proven in court without reasonable doubt".

You can charge any guilty person with higher charges but unless you can prove it, it doesn't mean a thing.

You need add in the possible defense strategies and other factors etc.

sometimes the question is are you willing to gamble and risk a guilty person walk with higher charges or does it worth to go with a lesser charge for an almost guaranteed conviction?

PS: Ginvid is right, the more technical the case gets, the more experts takes the stand, the more the terminology is introduced it becomes harder for the jury to follow and understand it and they are less likely to give a guilty verdict. (jurors also want to be certain if they are going to send someone to a prison, the less they understand the less confident that they are with their decision which means more likelihood of not guilty verdict). It's recommended to keep such cases as simple as possible.
 
Re: Unappropriate Charges In Case

ivy said:
PS: Ginvid is right, the more technical the case gets, the more experts takes the stand, the more the terminology is introduced it becomes harder for the jury to follow and understand it and they are less likely to give a guilty verdict. .
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I just answered that, but you seemed to ignore it. Of course everyone won't understand all those medical terms. It's commen sense. The medical experts can DEFINATELY break it all down for everyone to understand.

What do you think happens to all these other cases involving medical malpractice?

Their are TOO MANY strange things surrounding this to have no possible chance of being proven.

I would still LOVE to know why Murray injected all those drugs into Michael after Michael told him his heart was hurting and even INSISTED to be taken to the hospital.
 
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Re: Unappropriate Charges In Case

kasume said:
I just answered that, but you seemed to ignore it. Of course everyone won't understand all those medical terms. It's commen sense. The medical experts can DEFINATELY break it all down for everyone to understand.

What do you think happens to all these other cases involving medical malpractice?

Their are TOO MANY strange things surrounding this to have no possible chance of being proven.

I would still LOVE to know why Murray injected all those drugs into Michael after Michael told him his heart was hurting and even INSISTED to be taken to the hospital.
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I totally agree. Medical experts will most likely come in. To say to make is easy as as to keep it simple is not going to fly.
Why would some judge and jury let someone go free because they didn't understand the medical terminology. I say give them all the time they need to evaluate the evidence, take them to the crim scene, look into MURRAY's medical history...question everything before you let this murderer go free to kill again and again.
 
Re: Unappropriate Charges In Case

You need the right medical expert. Some medical experts don't have the ability to simplify stuff. Plus almost in any case there's some medical expert or some research done someplace that shows contradicting findings. In science most things aren't definitive. I've been in courtrooms, experts are battled with other experts with conflicting information to confuse the jurors.

(For example and I'm making this up one expert can say that it's the benzo effect but another one can cite a research that showed no effect and argue that it's not a scientifically proven thing.or your doctor is talking about "a lot of factors", some other expert might pin the reason to one of those factors etc. )

ps: any source for heart hurting and insisting on going to a hospital? I don't remember reading that.
 
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Re: Unappropriate Charges In Case

^^Agreed Ivy. And Murray's lawyers will make sure they have medical experts to make it as complicated as possible. you are talking about a legal and medical tug of war. MJ's side will try to simplify. ON cross and when they bring experts Murrays side will try to be as confusing as possible tomake the jury doubt what they think they understand.

I was just watching Court TV over the weekend and they were talking about some case (i'm sorry I cannot remember) where they said the complications brought on by the experts directly related to the not guilty verdict.

We all here believe it should be M2, but I doubt any MJ fans will be on the jury at all.
 
Re: Unappropriate Charges In Case

yes, I don't remember reading it either, though in Kasume's post which this doctor says Michael's weight, age, diet and any chronic diseases MURRARY should have well known.

As I am near Michael's age and I don't like sickly as he did in that pic. I take benzo, anti-depressants and have very bad asthma, n(respiratory) problems. I worry too that I am so very careful with what I put into my body. I don't smoke or drink but I'm nearly allergic to everything.

I still can dance when I hear Michael's music though.
 
Re: Unappropriate Charges In Case

ginvid said:
^^Agreed Ivy. And Murray's lawyers will make sure they have medical experts to make it as complicated as possible. you are talking about a legal and medical tug of war. MJ's side will try to simplify. ON cross and when they bring experts Murrays side will try to be as confusing as possible tomake the jury doubt what they think they understand.

I was just watching Court TV over the weekend and they were talking about some case (i'm sorry I cannot remember) where they said the complications brought on by the experts directly related to the not guilty verdict.

We all here believe it should be M2, but I doubt any MJ fans will be on the jury at all.
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Based on the location of the court, greater Los Angeles, they are bound to have some or more than MJ fans. Hope they pretend during jury selection they never heard of Michael so they can be selected. I am going to pray that Michael get's justice for once.
 
Re: Unappropriate Charges In Case

mjistheonlyone said:
Based on the location of the court, greater Los Angeles, they are bound to have some or more than MJ fans. Hope they pretend during jury selection they never heard of Michael so they can be selected. I am going to pray that Michael get's justice for once.
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that's perjury, they can go to prison (up to 5 years) and any verdict from that kind of conduct will get overturned. and we'll be back to square one.
 
Re: Unappropriate Charges In Case

ivy said:
that's perjury, they can go to prison (up to 5 years) and any verdict from that kind of conduct will get overturned. and we'll be back to square one.
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Yes, I know it is. Let me ask you this...Do you think the DA will go for a simple conviction of IM?
 
Re: Unappropriate Charges In Case

sources

MARTIN: And you said a doctor saw him last night, but he didn’t see a need to take him to the hospital?

JACKSON: He didn’t take him to the hospital. This morning he wasn’t breathing and they rushed him to the hospital. He was going to be 51 in August. Gone too soon.
http://machronicles.com/2009/06/26/marlon-jackson-speaks-on-how-he-found-out-about-michaels-death/
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Exel: Okay. Marlon Jackson went on the record on CNN’s Roland Martin and he said Michael was not feeling well early in the morning of June the 25th and late at night on the 24th. If that is true, can you tell us what was wrong with Michael? Did Michael request to go to the hospital in the early morning hours?

DiLeo: No and I don’t think that Marlon spoke to him on the morning of the 25th and I am not sure he spoke to him the night of the 24th.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7NqrDLdN0A
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Now as some random fan over the internet, I know I'm not the most credible source. Whether anyone believes this, it is up to them.

My uncle who is a music producer called up Marlon about a day or two after and asked him, "What happened?" He said, Marlon told him that Michael called him the night before and told him that his heart was hurting, something was wrong with his chest, but the doctor wouldn't take him to the hospital, and said, "No, you're fine." And Michael insisted, "You know, I really think something's wrong with me. I think I need to go." And the doctor kept saying, "No, you're fine. You're fine."
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Re: Unappropriate Charges In Case

ivy said:
that's perjury, they can go to prison (up to 5 years) and any verdict from that kind of conduct will get overturned. and we'll be back to square one.
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then they better not pick some mj haters either, or secretly biased people against him. we even have some undercover haters and people like that at this board.
 
Re: Unappropriate Charges In Case

He said, Marlon told him that Michael called him the night before and told him that his heart was hurting, something was wrong with his chest, but the doctor wouldn't take him to the hospital, and said, "No, you're fine." And Michael insisted, "You know, I really think something's wrong with me. I think I need to go." And the doctor kept saying, "No, you're fine. You're fine."
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And Michael agreed and did nothing... :smilerolleyes:

:doh:
 
Re: Unappropriate Charges In Case

kasume said:
sources
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about those sources after looking to them (especially 3) I believe it's a story that's been exaggerated (taking the interview and embellishing it) by fans.

from the whole essence interview

http://www1.essence.com/news_entert...l_jacksons_family_speaks_on_his_death/?Page=1


ROLAND S. MARTIN: Marlon, how did you find out about Michael's death?
MARLON JACKSON: I talked to Frank Dileo, Michael's manager. Frank told me that Michael last night was complaining about not feeling well. Michael's doctor went over to see him, and Frank said, "Marlon, from last night to this morning, I don't know what happened." When they got to him this morning, he wasn't breathing. They rushed him to the hospital and couldn't bring him around. That's what happened. They don't know what happened.

and

MARTIN: Was that the last time you spoke with him?
JACKSON: May 14 was the last time I spoke with him. The last time I saw him.


so by his own account he says that he didn't talk with Michael and he heard it from Frank Dileo. Even though Frank said it he doesn't mention what he was complaining about.

Plus the interview is done and posted on the day Michael died.

It's obvious that they don't know the propofol and Murray's regular presence. They assume that the reason the doctor was at the house was due to some complaint.
 
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Re: Unappropriate Charges In Case

mjistheonlyone said:
Yes, I know it is. Let me ask you this...Do you think the DA will go for a simple conviction of IM?
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well that's what they are going for isn't it?

kasume said:
then they better not pick some mj haters either, or secretly biased people against him. we even have some undercover haters and people like that at this board.
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they wouldn't. Murray's lawyers wouldn't want MJ fans, DA wouldn't want MJ haters. They'll eliminate those during the selection process. And in the end all will be left with indifferent impartial unbiased people.
 
Re: Unappropriate Charges In Case

ivy said:
ROLAND S. MARTIN: Marlon, how did you find out about Michael's death?
MARLON JACKSON: I talked to Frank Dileo, Michael's manager. Frank told me that Michael last night was complaining about not feeling well. Michael's doctor went over to see him, and Frank said, "Marlon, from last night to this morning, I don't know what happened." When they got to him this morning, he wasn't breathing. They rushed him to the hospital and couldn't bring him around. That's what happened. They don't know what happened.

and

MARTIN: Was that the last time you spoke with him?
JACKSON: May 14 was the last time I spoke with him. The last time I saw him.


so by his own account he says that he didn't talk with Michael and he heard it from Frank Dileo. Even though Frank said it he doesn't mention what he was complaining about.
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Yes, I read all that. Now, take a look at this.

Exel:Did Michael request to go to the hospital in the early morning hours?
DiLeo: No and I don’t think that Marlon spoke to him on the morning of the 25th and I am not sure he spoke to him the night of the 24th.

DiLeo has some explaining to do.

and exaggerated by fans? I'm the only one who heard directly from that last source. and he says that is what Marlon told HIM. So suppose Marlon has some explaining to do too.

but if they're paying Marlon to keep quiet, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be hard for DiLeo to have told him to lie about his answer on that question of the last time he spoke to Michael.

And here's the thing, Marlon is being paid to shut up. There is a reason to that. They don't want him to speak about something.



ivy said:
well that's what they are going for isn't it?
they wouldn't. Murray's lawyers wouldn't want MJ fans, DA wouldn't want MJ haters. They'll eliminate those during the selection process. And in the end all will be left with indifferent impartial unbiased people.
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It can still be done of either side. All you need to do is be a good actor. Look at Michael's best friend, Murray.
 
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Re: Unappropriate Charges In Case

you are stepping into conspiracy in the case section. If that will be the way this goes this thread is better suited for that section.

I can say this : "some random fan" and "hearsay" won't hold in a court of law.

I'm sure that cops dumped MJ's phone records and contacted the person he talked last (if any)- that's standard procedure as well.

Now for the rest of the statements from Marlon and Frank and even if we assume they are correct I'm not sure whether it's a good thing for the case. Here is why : Frank said that he last saw MJ at the rehearsal so even if MJ was complaining that was after the rehearsal and before Murray gave him anything.

That would be preexisting condition, a "factor" affecting the outcome. Not understanding his complaints and not taking him to a hospital, giving him other drugs could be classified as misdiagnoses on Murray's part - even reducing IVM.

I don't know anybody else but I'm tired of reading statements, theories, explanations etc that introduce reasonable doubt and in the end helps Murray.
 
Re: Unappropriate Charges In Case

although I will not argue with any medical expert, I believe that it's important to remember that the charges also depends on "what can be proven in court without reasonable doubt".

You can charge any guilty person with higher charges but unless you can prove it, it doesn't mean a thing.

You need add in the possible defense strategies and other factors etc.

sometimes the question is are you willing to gamble and risk a guilty person walk with higher charges or does it worth to go with a lesser charge for an almost guaranteed conviction?
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exactly. some fans are trying to be to simplistic with how the law works. thinking you can prove something with no evidence. re the marlons statements. even if it were true its irrelevent. mj didnt have a heart attack there was nothing wrong with him. and as ivy pointed out the story has been chinese whispered.
 
Re: Unappropriate Charges In Case

delete
 
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Re: Unappropriate Charges In Case

ivy said:
you are stepping into conspiracy in the case section. If that will be the way this goes this thread is better suited for that section.

I can say this : "some random fan" and "hearsay" won't hold in a court of law.

I'm sure that cops dumped MJ's phone records and contacted the person he talked last (if any)- that's standard procedure as well.

Now for the rest of the statements from Marlon and Frank and even if we assume they are correct I'm not sure whether it's a good thing for the case. Here is why : Frank said that he last saw MJ at the rehearsal so even if MJ was complaining that was after the rehearsal and before Murray gave him anything.

That would be preexisting condition, a "factor" affecting the outcome. Not understanding his complaints and not taking him to a hospital, giving him other drugs could be classified as misdiagnoses on Murray's part - even reducing IVM.

I don't know anybody else but I'm tired of reading statements, theories, explanations etc that introduce reasonable doubt and in the end helps Murray.
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Michael has ask to go to the hospoital more than once. When the time when he called Cherynne Lee regarding the beinmg hot on one side and cold on the other.
The fact Murray misdisdiagnosed, :wtf2 if he Michael complained about going to the hospital, he should be allowed to go!!! Plan and simple. Misdiadanoise is still unfavoriable~hell he is supposue to be the doctor but his actions proves otherwise.

As it stands now, hopefully we will hear of a [misdiagnose] in court.. It could mean MURRAY had other things up his sleeve, as we know now Michael didn't live, reducing the INM makes him even more guilty.
 
Re: Unappropriate Charges In Case

your doing good work here Kasume...thank you. And I agree...I totally think that Michael asked to go to the hospital and he was denied that request.
 
Re: Unappropriate Charges In Case

But we have no proof from anyone (that can be verified) that he asked to go. Of course more information will be coming out and people will have to get their stories straight one way or the other, but for now...
 
Re: Unappropriate Charges In Case

Michael's body was moved after 11:00 am.

I am very interested to know who and even MORE interested whether or not that person was one of the people Murray called during that 47 minute time frame of calls.

Murray called three people during that time frame which began at 11:18 am. Those three people are the suspects of helping Murray move Michael's body.

If none of those three people helped Murray, then WHO did? How would someone know to come upstairs? Because NO ONE was allowed upstairs.
 
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Re: Unappropriate Charges In Case

I think that if Michael really wanted to go to the hospital and Dr. Death wouldn't comply, he would have called his security guards outside--they would have called his personal asst. Michael Amir and they would have gotten him there. Michael was not moved from Dr. Death's bedroom after dying. When the security guard Alvarado called 911, he stated Michael was being given CPR on the bed. The paramedics advised to move to a hard surface so one would surmise that the Dr. and Alvarado moved him to the floor. When paramedics arrived----Michael was in the first BD on the right at the top of the stairs---it's in their report. This is Dr. Death's BD. Michael's BD was at the very end of the hallway. I, too believe Michael had been dead for several hours probably due to Dr. Death not being in the room to monitor him for a long period of time. God only knows how often this probably happened. He knew Michael was dead when he called his asst.'s in Houston early that morning to remove items from his storage facility. As far as Grace, I don't think she was around at all during the last 6 months of his life. She had been fired the previous Dec. but was allowed to come to Paris's birthday party for a few hours in April. Nothing more. She may be (and probably is) guilty of other things, but I don't think she had anything to do with Michael's death. These are only my opinions but I research everyday. I'll only really believe something if the Jackson's say it (but not Joe). And Marlon would never betray his beloved brother, and none of the other siblings would, either. Yes, they had intense differences over the years but bottom line they loved and supported each other, esp. when the chips were down.
 
Re: Unappropriate Charges In Case

The 3 people Murray called that morning have been identified. None were in L.A. The body was not moved until the security guard, Alvarado was called upstairs and made the 911 call. Then Michael was moved to the floor where the paramedics found him.
 
Re: Unappropriate Charges In Case

SandyFromHouston said:
I think that if Michael really wanted to go to the hospital and Dr. Death wouldn't comply, he would have called his security guards outside--they would have called his personal asst. Michael Amir and they would have gotten him there. Michael was not moved from Dr. Death's bedroom after dying. When the security guard Alvarado called 911, he stated Michael was being given CPR on the bed. The paramedics advised to move to a hard surface so one would surmise that the Dr. and Alvarado moved him to the floor. When paramedics arrived----Michael was in the first BD on the right at the top of the stairs---it's in their report. This is Dr. Death's BD. Michael's BD was at the very end of the hallway. I, too believe Michael had been dead for several hours probably due to Dr. Death not being in the room to monitor him for a long period of time. God only knows how often this probably happened. He knew Michael was dead when he called his asst.'s in Houston early that morning to remove items from his storage facility. As far as Grace, I don't think she was around at all during the last 6 months of his life. She had been fired the previous Dec. but was allowed to come to Paris's birthday party for a few hours in April. Nothing more. She may be (and probably is) guilty of other things, but I don't think she had anything to do with Michael's death. These are only my opinions but I research everyday. I'll only really believe something if the Jackson's say it (but not Joe). And Marlon would never betray his beloved brother, and none of the other siblings would, either. Yes, they had intense differences over the years but bottom line they loved and supported each other, esp. when the chips were down.
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So you believe what the Jackson's say????...Do you believe Janet when she called Michael a drug addict and that they tried to do interventions??? Please be careful when you say that you listen to the Jacksons....some of what they say are lies and are damning to Michael and is helping the defense
 
Re: Unappropriate Charges In Case

Do you think it was Grace who started the intervention stories?

Since she was telling lies to Katherine, family, and even the children.

And I also read from another source, that she was pushing the family to do an intervention. And yet, IT WAS HER WHO WAS SECRETLY DRUGGING MICHAEL UP before Kai Chase came.

She is crazy!
 
Re: Unappropriate Charges In Case

SandyFromHouston said:
The 3 people Murray called that morning have been identified. None were in L.A. The body was not moved until the security guard, Alvarado was called upstairs and made the 911 call. Then Michael was moved to the floor where the paramedics found him.
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woah....I believe we have here a hint of a premeditated murder.

If none of the people he called was in L.A., then WHO knew to come upstairs anyways when NO ONE was allowed upstairs in the first place??


...sry for doublepost
 
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Re: Unappropriate Charges In Case

kasume said:
Do you think it was Grace who started the intervention stories?

Since she was telling lies to Katherine, family, and even the children.

And I also read from another source, that she was pushing the family to do an intervention. And yet, IT WAS HER WHO WAS SECRETLY DRUGGING MICHAEL UP before Kai Chase came.

She is crazy!
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So true, Michael said it himself, SHE'S POSINING MY FOOD. Grace is. Came from his mouth.
 
Re: Unappropriate Charges In Case

AnnieRUOkay89 said:
When did he say that?
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We do know their are SWORN DEPOSITIONS saying that Grace spiked Michael's food and drink with drugs like demerol, morphine, oxycontin etc. before Kai Chase came.

And Michael himself did realize what she was doing.
 
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