Cascio Tracks Debate Thread

[Garden]

Re: So, what's the general consensus on Keep Your Head Up?

What 's the problem with the word "fake"
What you guys want us to use as a word

"Fake" means for me that they use some TRUE michael's vocals here and there (and sometime 0 % of mj's vocals) and as he couldnt finish the song they used another person IMITATING michael's voice to fill in the holes ( I am not even talking about the arrangements and the music itself but only the VOCALS )

This is the main problem IMITATION
As soon as they IMITATE to fill the gaps this is FAKE

I dont see a better word than this one otherwise tell us and at the same give us the definition of a FAKE song since you seem not to agree with this word

KYHU is 80% IMITATION and 20% TRUE mj vocals = FAKE

The general problem and more specific for your last line is that you don't have any legal or scientifical proof.

 

[larry141094]

I am sorry Larry, but, firstly, we have moderators for those who do not respect the rules.

Secondly, you do not change the subject of the debate when it has already begun. For a new subject create a new thread.

And finally, no offense, I understand your good intentions, but people do not know you enough to give you credit to decide whose arguments are valid or not. In other words, who can vouch for your neutrality? Do you have references? I am sorry to put it this way, but being a law student at the uni can certainly contribute to many legal issues, however it does not give you more credit than to all other fans discussing and debating the subject that you've launched. Many of us have been graduated long time ago, have aquired experience at work in different areas of expertise and are not necessarily acting as judges or throwing our diplomas and resume into the face of others.

Ok, im a VERY tolerent person, but there are 3 things i do not stand for, and one of them is disrespect. I might not have been here long, but that does not give you the right to undermine me or my intelligence. I got past that cr@p at school.
Now i created this thread to debate a topic which was flooding every other thread on here and was disturbing the peace, people were asking for a proper debate... so im giving it to them.

I'm not neutral i am biased, i lean towards the tracks being michael with James porte doing backing vocals as well as fill in vocals. However, the results of a topic will not be open & shut, you'll just have to wait and see. Next time don't talk down to me, i REALLY resent that

 

[serena williams]

Re: So, what's the general consensus on Keep Your Head Up?

The general problem and more specific for your last line is that you don't have any legal or scientifical proof.

Has sony given you any scientific proof that this is MJ

Neither of the two sides has tangibles proof anyway

So i have still legaly the right to say this not MJ

 

[mariemarie]

I'm not neutral i am biased, i lean towards the tracks being michael with James porte doing backing vocals as well as fill in vocals.

and that's that, nothing else.

Happy we have songs like Monster. It's a sexy song, "toooooo baad." I understand why they wanted to release it, it's a floorfiller.unk::wub:

 

[Garden]

How do you know Jason uses Melodyne to alter his vibrato in his songs? That's a lie to me because the live performances of his proves he can pull it off.

;-) Well I've read that too, about Jason using Melodyne but I don't know where anymore and I don't think it was proven, but it is possible.

 

[Superstition]

The main issue I have with these tracks - and most of the reasons given for them sounding the way they do - is that they go against things we've seen in the past.

For these tracks to be legit, they have to go against every precedent ever set. We've heard "rough demos" and "guide vocals" before - In The Back, Earth Song Demo, etc. We've heard him recorded on lousy equipment. We've heard him singing recently, just last year.

 

[144000]

there is something that is easily overlooked if people wish to overlook it. but it's a smoking gun. mark this post. it's dated december 18, into december 19th, 2010. as of the writing of this post, 'breaking news' is NOT a copyrighted song. there are 77 entries, as of right now, by many people, under the title 'breaking news'. the cascios and james porte are not among them. the reason why i dated this post, and i will copy it and store it in my private files, is because, as far as i am concerned, i wouldn't put it past the cascios to suddenly copyright the song. then again, if Michael Jackson was involved with the writing of this song, as the family claims, then, why not copyright it? is it because of the warning against fraud, that is on the eco system electronic copyright webpage? perhaps, if the governement isn't involved, there's nothing they can or will do. so, the best way to avoid trouble is to not officially copyright the song. but sony can use it's public image to...'copyright' the song, unofficially, with the cascios. so did Michael really have ANYTHING to do with this song? are his nephews right that this kind of song would never be on MJ's radar? the instructions of the copyright office specifically, explicitly demand that an applicant write the titles of ALL their works on the application. ALL works. not just some group title. while you're looking through the database at all the 'breaking news' entries, take a look at the entry by a famous weatherman, from the usa's 'today show'. Al Roker. the full title of his work has something to do with Halloween. he takes the time and labor to write ALL his titles of that work. breaking news is one of the titles. that's why i found the entry. it's a really long list. but if you're genuine, you'll follow the copyright instructions to the letter. Al Roker did. everybody else with a 'breaking news' entry did. where is the cascios entry? of course, if they dare deal with the government, and are willing to risk a 2500 dollar fraud penalty, i guess a cascios entry will be there, after the date of this post. they can just issue a tidy 760 dollar special handling fee, and they can get a certificate of copyright, quick, fast, and in a hurry. but, i guess they and sony have an..uhm..image to protect.

 

[Pentum]

;-) Well I've read that too, about Jason using Melodyne but I don't know where anymore and I don't think it was proven, but it is possible.

You don't need to read everything. Listen to both of Jason's album, almost every song has that vibrato + many live performances.

I'm not saying there is no effect on the vibrato in the cascio tracks, I'm just talking about Jason's other songs.

 

[Garden]

Quote:

[In my opinion, the "heavily processed" vocals are bullshit. KYHU vocals are the clearest vocals on the album.]

I don't think KYHU vocals are the clearest on the album.
And I don't think that "clearness" can always be a norm to measure the amount of processing with.
However I have to admit that I don't know how much processing has been done...

 

[aganim]

Re: So, what's the general consensus on Keep Your Head Up?

So i have still legaly the right to say this not MJ

nope.
It's innocent until proven guilty and not the other way around^^

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Ok, im a VERY tolerent person, but there are 3 things i do not stand for, and one of them is disrespect. I might not have been here long, but that does not give you the right to undermine me or my intelligence. I got past that cr@p at school.
Now i created this thread to debate a topic which was flooding every other thread on here and was disturbing the peace, people were asking for a proper debate... so im giving it to them.

I'm not neutral i am biased, i lean towards the tracks being michael with James porte doing backing vocals as well as fill in vocals. However, the results of a topic will not be open & shut, you'll just have to wait and see. Next time don't talk down to me, i REALLY resent that

I do not know you and I have no reason whatsoever to disrespect you. I did not say anything disrespectful, I said the facts.

I did not undermine you either. The fact that you haven't been long here does not mean that I undermined you. The fact that you haven't been long here indicates that people do not know you. It is a fact.

My remark was clear, neat and straight to the point. If I showed you disrespect please indicate in what part of my remark was that so I can rectify it.

 

[Garden]

You don't need to read everything. Listen to both of Jason's album, almost every song has that vibrato + many live performances.

I'm not saying there is no effect on the vibrato in the cascio tracks, I'm just talking about Jason's other songs.

I listened to Jason's songs.
How does your answer say that it can't be Melodyne in some of the vibrato?
Have you proof from the live performances you talk about, where you there and was he not lip syncing? Or is there something else to proove it?

Everybody without proof can tell whatever... and that goes for both sides.

 

[Pentum]

I listened to Jason's songs.
How does your answer say that it can't be Melodyne in some of the vibrato?
Have you proof from the live performances you talk about, where you there and was he not lip syncing? Or is there something else to proove it?

Everybody without proof can tell whatever... and that goes for both sides.

http://video.yahoo.com/watch/150573/1627044
http://www.4shared.com/video/uMX35Ng4/Jason_Malachi_Live.html

As you can hear, he can do the vibrato with no problem. Now imagine in a studio, perfecting it...

Everybody without proof can tell whatever... and that goes for both sides.

Of course. I like to play video games, do I really need proof for you to believe me?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

1.If Michael's voice is on the tracks why would the Family lie

Exactly. Why would they lie? And doesn't it struck you as weird that before the album was released there was this hype from Michael's family that some of the tracks on the album are fake, and now just suddenly no one's coming forward to say anything. No "Hey, we were wrong, the tracks really are authentic" or "We still believe the tracks are fake". I don't know about you guys but I think something's going on here. And I'm not a "consipary theory" kind of person.

2.If Michael's voice IS NOT on the tracks why would The estate, the producers, MJ's friends and Sony Music lie.

To cash in. Simples. The only people who supported that everything is authentic on the album is the people who will profit from the sales. The Cascios, Teddy Riley and Sony.

3.What kind of legal trouble would Sony be liable for?

I don't know the answer to this question but I hope closure. This is probably why we will never know the truth.

4.Why haven't the Jackson's taken legal action?

I don't know the answer to this question either, but I'm hoping that if they really believe what they say [that the Cascio tracks are fake], then maybe we will see some legal action from the Jacksons soon.

And by the way, I'm sorry if I sound a bit aggresive on my previous comments, I just strongly believe that the Cascio tracks are fake and that frustrates me beyond imagination. I don't have anything against anyone in here of course, quite the contrary. We're all Michael's fans. But when you have people saying they pitty you because you believe something that they don't, then I'm sorry, but I have to defend myself.

3.What kind of legal trouble would Sony be liable for?

SONY risk nothing at all. They paid for the songs in due form for what they believe is Michael's voice. The payment of more than 200 million dollars gives SONY credit of an act of good faith and could be used as such in the court to discredit all the accusers who would charge for fraud (when they clearly paid). If they were attacked, they could clearly counter-attack and claim that they were the victims (since it is they who paid the 200 mn dollars).

I suppose that the contract between Cascios, the Estate and Sony and whoever is involved in the project is so well arranged that in case of any kind of accusations they all would wash their hands from the responsibilities. The big companies do this kind of thing all the time. They divide responsibilities in so many different branches and parties and employees that it is extremely difficult to prove anything.

The military does it all the time as well. Take an example of a soldier who decides to disobey his superior to kill an innocent civilian. If he refuses the soldier could be shot for disobedience. If he shoots to kill, the soldier could be prosecuted. But then he will reject the responsibility to his superior. And his superior to his other superior. The superiors will deny it of course. The soldier has no proof to prove anything. In short, with such systems and contracts there will be always a win-win situation for some and a lose-lose situation for others.

 

[samhabib]

there is something that is easily overlooked if people wish to overlook it. but it's a smoking gun. mark this post. it's dated december 18, into december 19th, 2010. as of the writing of this post, 'breaking news' is NOT a copyrighted song. there are 77 entries, as of right now, by many people, under the title 'breaking news'. the cascios and james porte are not among them. the reason why i dated this post, and i will copy it and store it in my private files, is because, as far as i am concerned, i wouldn't put it past the cascios to suddenly copyright the song. then again, if Michael Jackson was involved with the writing of this song, as the family claims, then, why not copyright it? is it because of the warning against fraud, that is on the eco system electronic copyright webpage? perhaps, if the governement isn't involved, there's nothing they can or will do. so, the best way to avoid trouble is to not officially copyright the song. but sony can use it's public image to...'copyright' the song, unofficially, with the cascios. so did Michael really have ANYTHING to do with this song? are his nephews right that this kind of song would never be on MJ's radar? the instructions of the copyright office specifically, explicitly demand that an applicant write the titles of ALL their works on the application. ALL works. not just some group title. while you're looking through the database at all the 'breaking news' entries, take a look at the entry by a famous weatherman, from the usa's 'today show'. Al Roker. the full title of his work has something to do with Halloween. he takes the time and labor to write ALL his titles of that work. breaking news is one of the titles. that's why i found the entry. it's a really long list. but if you're genuine, you'll follow the copyright instructions to the letter. Al Roker did. everybody else with a 'breaking news' entry did. where is the cascios entry? of course, if they dare deal with the government, and are willing to risk a 2500 dollar fraud penalty, i guess a cascios entry will be there, after the date of this post. they can just issue a tidy 760 dollar special handling fee, and they can get a certificate of copyright, quick, fast, and in a hurry. but, i guess they and sony have an..uhm..image to protect.

Didn't the Cascios register their songs on 27th June 2009 (2 days after Michael passed away) as 'MJ collection'? Great friends, the Cascios, thinking of business before the family even had time to bury Michael.

I wish I had friends like that!

 

[Garden]

http://video.yahoo.com/watch/150573/1627044
http://www.4shared.com/video/uMX35Ng4/Jason_Malachi_Live.html

As you can hear, he can do the vibrato with no problem. Now imagine in a studio, perfecting it...



Of course. I like to play video games, do I really need proof for you to believe me?

I did not say Jason can't do vibrato ;-).
Perfecting it in studio... yes ofcourse he can do that... and you're certain nothing else touches that studio recordings than his "raw" voice, certainly no producing, certainly never Melodyne? Maybe you are right, but I don't know.
Anyway, we can go on forever ;-)
Also video clips are no legal proof, so we need better proof of things.
Maybe it was already been perfected in a studio?

You should thank me anyway for my answer gave you a beautiful opportunity to post these You Tube clips ;-). Many people will believe all of this Malachi thing, I won't untill I have real proof.

I really want that this whole controversy thing goes to court one day and finally I'll see the proof that will be sufficient for me, whatever the outcome is.

 

[Pentum]

Meh, I could've just posted the clips all over the forum. You wait for your proof. I don't need any, I trust my ears.

And yes, this whole thing is fucked up and I hate it.

 

[144000]

#144 samhabib vbmenu_register("postmenu_3145165", true);

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 289

Re: Cascio Tracks Debate Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by 144,000
there is something that is easily overlooked if people wish to overlook it. but it's a smoking gun. mark this post. it's dated december 18, into december 19th, 2010. as of the writing of this post, 'breaking news' is NOT a copyrighted song. there are 77 entries, as of right now, by many people, under the title 'breaking news'. the cascios and james porte are not among them. the reason why i dated this post, and i will copy it and store it in my private files, is because, as far as i am concerned, i wouldn't put it past the cascios to suddenly copyright the song. then again, if Michael Jackson was involved with the writing of this song, as the family claims, then, why not copyright it? is it because of the warning against fraud, that is on the eco system electronic copyright webpage? perhaps, if the governement isn't involved, there's nothing they can or will do. so, the best way to avoid trouble is to not officially copyright the song. but sony can use it's public image to...'copyright' the song, unofficially, with the cascios. so did Michael really have ANYTHING to do with this song? are his nephews right that this kind of song would never be on MJ's radar? the instructions of the copyright office specifically, explicitly demand that an applicant write the titles of ALL their works on the application. ALL works. not just some group title. while you're looking through the database at all the 'breaking news' entries, take a look at the entry by a famous weatherman, from the usa's 'today show'. Al Roker. the full title of his work has something to do with Halloween. he takes the time and labor to write ALL his titles of that work. breaking news is one of the titles. that's why i found the entry. it's a really long list. but if you're genuine, you'll follow the copyright instructions to the letter. Al Roker did. everybody else with a 'breaking news' entry did. where is the cascios entry? of course, if they dare deal with the government, and are willing to risk a 2500 dollar fraud penalty, i guess a cascios entry will be there, after the date of this post. they can just issue a tidy 760 dollar special handling fee, and they can get a certificate of copyright, quick, fast, and in a hurry. but, i guess they and sony have an..uhm..image to protect.

Didn't the Cascios register their songs on 27th June 2009 (2 days after Michael passed away) as 'MJ collection'? Great friends, the Cascios, thinking of business before the family even had time to bury Michael.

I wish I had friends like that!



yeah..i agree. but 'mj collection' is not abiding by the rules of the copyright office. 'mj' could be anybody. and the title of the song is not 'mj collection'. it's 'breaking news' and the song has to be registered as 'breaking news'.

 

[Gfresh]

Michael Jackson - That Grape Juice Interviews Teddy Riley from Sam A on Vimeo.

2.24 ...

Michael does all the leadvocal.

 

[smooth_criminal05]

Re: So, what's the general consensus on Keep Your Head Up?

It's 100% MJ singing. It's so obvious, I never doubted this one. How people think this is fake is beyond me.

 

[kreen]

Re: So, what's the general consensus on Keep Your Head Up?

It's 100% MJ singing. It's so obvious, I never doubted this one. How people think this is fake is beyond me.

What do you think of All I Need? DO you think it's MJ also?

 

[Pentum]

Re: So, what's the general consensus on Keep Your Head Up?

It's 100% MJ singing. It's so obvious, I never doubted this one. How people think this is fake is beyond me.

It's 100% not MJ singing. It's so obvious, I never doubted this one. How people think this is real is beyond me.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Michael Jackson - That Grape Juice Interviews Teddy Riley from Sam A on Vimeo.


2.24 ...

Michael does all the leadvocal.

I don't know Teddy personally and I don't know Taryll personally. I know one thing, is that I am a MJ fan and love MJ music.

When a new MJ album is on the market I am among the first people to buy it. The same goes for this new album Michael. I bought it before the official release (three times).

I want so hard to believe Teddy regarding the Cascio tracks. He certainly had good memories of Michael Jackson and tells nice cherishing stories and experience he had with Michael. I also absolutely love what Teddy did before for Michael on all his albums. I've been a fan since the 80s and love the "old team" that Michael was surrounded by. I was holding BAD album in my hands and used to read for hours all the credits and all the team that worked on that album. The same goes for Thriller, for Dangerous, for Moonwalker, etc. I loved the music so much that I wanted to read all the names who contributed to the songs. I didn't know who were all these guys, but they kept coming back on many Michael's songs and projects - Bruce Sweiden, Teddy Riley, Frank Dileo, Quincy Jones, ... they were all a part of Michael's magical universe and I've always loved it so much.

So yes! If I were biased I would have more reasons to believe Teddy than Taryll. And I want so much to believe Teddy, I really do from the deepest of my heart. But I just can't help it, I cannot hear my Michael from that old team from BAD era, or from any other era actually. My ears do not hear nor recognize Michael on BN or Monster! I can fall for KYHU maybe and hear Michael on that one, but certainly not on BN and Monster (even though I like very much those songs). Even if there is a proof that it is Michael singing on those songs I just can't hear that magic in his voice and most probably I would wonder why those controversial tracks were not included rather on a bonus cd than on an album containing only ten tracks among which the last one contains hardly 2 minutes 30 of music.

 

[Arklove]

Re: So, what's the general consensus on Keep Your Head Up?

It's 100% MJ singing. It's so obvious, I never doubted this one. How people think this is fake is beyond me.

Well, I've listened to KYHU then MTS back to back and um....the difference is vast to me...They're different people, to my ears....

 

[barok232]

Re: So, what's the general consensus on Keep Your Head Up?

KYHU is not MJ imo

 

[smooth_criminal05]

Re: So, what's the general consensus on Keep Your Head Up?

^ Much Too Soon was recorded in 1993, MJ's voice changed a lot in 14 years. But it's obvious his voice on KYHU was ran through some sort of autotune or studio effect which is why it's a tad off. It's clear MJ never mastered his own vocals so the producer had to do it himself.

Again, like I've said from the beginning. The concept that the Cascio's hired Jason Malachi to come record these songs is ubsurd. MJ was living here for 4 months, he clearly wrote the songs (I know his writing style)... so is it that inconceivable to think "hey, maybe MJ went into that studio and recorded the songs he clearly wrote with Cascio". It's a realistic look at it.

I can tell by listening to it, it's MJ

 

[ivy]

3.What kind of legal trouble would Sony be liable for?

SONY risk nothing at all. They paid for the songs in due form for what they believe is Michael's voice. The payment of more than 200 million dollars gives SONY credit of an act of good faith and could be used as such in the court to discredit all the accusers who would charge for fraud (when they clearly paid). If they were attacked, they could clearly counter-attack and claim that they were the victims (since it is they who paid the 200 mn dollars).

I suppose that the contract between Cascios, the Estate and Sony and whoever is involved in the project is so well arranged that in case of any kind of accusations they all would wash their hands from the responsibilities. The big companies do this kind of thing all the time. They divide responsibilities in so many different branches and parties and employees that it is extremely difficult to prove anything.

The military does it all the time as well. Take an example of a soldier who decides to disobey his superior to kill an innocent civilian. If he refuses the soldier could be shot for disobedience. If he shoots to kill, the soldier could be prosecuted. But then he will reject the responsibility to his superior. And his superior to his other superior. The superiors will deny it of course. The soldier has no proof to prove anything. In short, with such systems and contracts there will be always a win-win situation for some and a lose-lose situation for others.

not true because both epic and estate mentioned Sony conducting expert analysis. so they are under a tremendous risk.

"good faith" argument can only be made if the situation didn't raise any red flags. They can no longer claim "well they told us it's Michael and we believed them because we had no reason to suspect them " argument. By their statements they were made aware of a possible fraud (by Taryll and such) before the release of the album and they took these things seriously, acknowledged the possibility and they conducted analysis to determine if the vocals are Michael's. It's no longer a case of what sony might believe or what they might be told. It's a case of objective analysis.

Logically the only non legal risk way of putting those songs on the album is that they really have expert reports saying that it's Michael's vocals on those songs.

Also after the possible questionable vocals claims and after their expert evaluations if the tests came back negative (not Michael) or questionable and they still included the songs in the album, their legal troubles and liabilities will be even more as it becomes a deliberate fraud on their part.

 

[barok232]

Re: So, what's the general consensus on Keep Your Head Up?

^ Much Too Soon was recorded in 1993, MJ's voice changed a lot in 14 years. But it's obvious his voice on KYHU was ran through some sort of autotune or studio effect which is why it's a tad off. It's clear MJ never mastered his own vocals so the producer had to do it himself.

Again, like I've said from the beginning. The concept that the Cascio's hired Jason Malachi to come record these songs is ubsurd. MJ was living here for 4 months, he clearly wrote the songs (I know his writing style)... so is it that inconceivable to think "hey, maybe MJ went into that studio and recorded the songs he clearly wrote with Cascio". It's a realistic look at it.

I can tell by listening to it, it's MJ

You have no credibility on the subject and I am willing to remind everyone AGAIN what YOU posted the day Breaking News came out online.

I do not hear any processed vocals in KYHU, come on. I do hear processed vocals on Hollywood Tonight for instance but it still sounds like MJ

Hold my hand, Best of Joy, Hollywood Tonight, This is it film + common sense, all suggest that MJ's voice didn't change and in no way ended up sounding like Jason Malachi.

Some try so hard to make us believe that either Michael sounded like crap the last years of his life, or that Teddy Riley got raw MJ vocals (that DO sound like him) and tried to make it sound worse!!! Please

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

not true because both epic and estate mentioned Sony conducting expert analysis. so they are under a tremendous risk.

"good faith" argument can only be made if the situation didn't raise any red flags. They can no longer claim "well they told us it's Michael and we believed them because we had no reason to suspect them " argument. By their statements they were made aware of a possible fraud (by Taryll and such) before the release of the album and they took these things seriously, acknowledged the possibility and they conducted analysis to determine if the vocals are Michael's.

Logically the only non legal risk way of putting those songs on the album is that they really have expert reports saying that it's Michael's vocals on those songs.

Also after the possible questionable vocals claims and after their expert evaluations if the tests came back negative (not Michael) or questionable and they still included the songs in the album, their legal troubles and liabilities will be even more as it becomes a deliberate fraud on their part.

So all in all with our different and controversial opinions (which could occur from different parties in the court vs SONY), we get to the same conclusion: they risk nothing as they have managed to protect themselves by hiding behind all the possible legal experts and contracts.

 

[smooth_criminal05]

Re: So, what's the general consensus on Keep Your Head Up?

^ My credibility is no different than any of yours.

PS I've merged the Keep Your Head Up thread into this one. Let's keep ALL the Cascio song talk in here.

Thanks