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Preliminary Hearing 11/1/11. Day Six. Discussion Thread

Question : I remember in the autopsy it said high "propofol amounts used in a surgery" was found in MJ's system. can anyone tell me what does it mean in mg? around 200mg?
 
Soundmind said:
The woman who testified yesterday from the coroner's office said, they found 70 mg of liquids in MJ's stomach . Out of those 70mg they found only 1.4 mg propofol:smilerolleyes: of course with blood .

The expert had no answers for your questions and I clearly don't but from everything we know about propofol this is not at all a plausible theory and will be shut down once the hemorrhage from the stomach walls caused by resuscitation attempts is delivered as an explanation by the coroner.
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I fully agree with the bolded too.
 
Justthefacts said:
But why would they when he already said he messed up? Oh yeah look at who I am talking about
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I agree. Again, this case is going to boil down to credibility of the experts and the science of it all. If any of his testimony that could possibly help the defense was based on miscalculations, then the prosecution will hammer the point in at trial. And I don't think that the jury will appreciate anyone trying to use calculations that have already been admitted as wrong.
 
Question : I remember in the autopsy it said high "propofol amounts used in a surgery" was found in MJ's system. can anyone tell me what does it mean in mg? around 200mg?
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Flagan repeatedly said the amounts in MJ were very huge close to 150mg ( relatively high, of course) , and Murray only gave 25mg.

Martinez the detective did admit he was wrong about the IV drip , Murray never said he gave an IV drip that day, he only infused it over 3 to 4 minutes, Martinez said Murray told them he gave it between 10:40 and 11 am so it lasted 20 mintues and that's why he believed it was an IV drip ( very logical, how could you even believe Murray remained beside MJ's bed giving a 25mg for 20 minutes INSANE) chernoff said it was a typo even though Martinez said it was recorded on tape. So tell me now why that 1000mg vial was there if it were not to trick MJ into believing he was being sedated using propofol not lorazepam?

The expert said 2 mg of flumazenil was a very low dose to reverse the effect of the HUGE amount of lorazepam he gave. He said lorazepam although was given in huge quantity would not have killed MJ alone but propofol increased it's effect.

Flanagan said that at 11 am the dose Murray gave would have stopped being effective and the fact that mj remained asleep for 40 minutes after that had nothing to do with propofol. the expert agreed with that . He claimed after 40 minutes MJ would not have suffered any effect of propofol , and he would have been sober enough to administer the last dose himself ( of course he is producing theories here and asking the witnesses to verify its accuracy and the witness agreed)

That's why if those idiot expert keep saying he was a known addict and even if Murray did not do it we still consider it homicide must re evaluate their responses , the last thing we need an expert on the stand saying MJ could have done it and he was a known addict ...etc

The expert said iv fluids should be taken into consideration and at the time of death the levels would have been even higher by 30% . Not the amounts , the levels again. so the blood concentration was even higher than 4.5 ug/mg= immediate death .

Also Chernoff said Murray never said he gave mj an IV drip on 25 june. Only one injection over 3 to 4 minutes .

He also told the coroner that MJ would have stopped breathing within one minute under propofol concentrations of 4.5 ( they were even higher) , he said that in response to the coroner telling him MJ would not have been able to do that if Murray only left for 2 minutes.


Basically everything we said was correct, one bolus injection to induce sleep Murray admit he gave that , death within one minute of another bolus injection and they blame MJ for it . Immediate death that's why the blood concentration remained very high.

Flagan also said how could Murray even bring MJ back if the levels were as high as 4.5 ( according to the expert they were even higher antemortem) They are finally admitting MJ died immediately and now using that as an argument for the defence " even he performed CPR correctly , it was already too late"
 
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ivy said:
Question : I remember in the autopsy it said high "propofol amounts used in a surgery" was found in MJ's system. can anyone tell me what does it mean in mg? around 200mg?
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I know I took this from one of your posts, but anyway ;) :

- Dr. Cooper is asked how much propofol she would give to someone MJ's weight (136 lb), she says she would start with 60mg. She says a dose of 25mg wouldn't last longer than 5-10 minutes and a dose wears of in 20-30 minutes.

I know this doesn't answer your question, but it's a little hint. Also, I'm not sure what she means, "she would start with" ... so that would probably be the first injection, and then give more through IV?

Question about liquid in stomach - the 70 mg (or ml?), what's that? Blood? Or did he drink something (I'm not talking about Propofol)? If it's let's say water and it's still in the stomach, he must have drank it close to his death?

P. S. Would it be possible to create a section, like a "folder", no idea what that's called in computer talk, here in the case section with all the threads about the hearing in it? The disusscion threads, the update threads, and there are picture threads as well, I think? Because it's hard to find them since only the latest one is a sticky and especially the update threads are something that people might want to look at from time to time for reference.
 
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Soundmind said:
Flagan repeatedly said the amounts in MJ were very huge close to 150mg , and Murray only gave 25mg.

The expert said iv fluids should be taken into consideration and at the time of death the levels would have been even higher by 30% . Not the amounts , the levels again. so the blood concentration was even higher than 4.5 ug/mg= immediate death .

Also Chernoff said Murray never said he gave mj an IV drip on 25 june. Only one injection over 3 to 4 mintues .

He also told the coroner that MJ would have stopped breathing within one minute under propofol concentrations of 4.5 ( they were even higher) , he said that in response to the coroner telling him MJ would not have been able to do that if Murray only left for 2 minutes.


Basically everything we said was correct, one bolus injection to induce sleep Murray admit he gave that , death within one minute of another bolus injection and they blame MJ for it . Immediate death that's why the blood concentration remained very high.

Flagan also said how could Murray even bring MJ back if the levels were as high as 4.5 ( according to the expert they were even higher antemortem) They are finally admitting MJ died immediately and now using that as an argument for the defence " even he performed CPR correctly , it was already too late"
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Now that the coroner has pretty much destroyed that he could have done it himself argument. We have the he drank it defense. And if Michael's prints is not on any needles or IVs good luck with that
 
Justthefacts said:
Now that the coroner has pretty much destroyed that he could have done it himself argument. We have the he drank it defense. And if Michael's prints is not on any needles or IVs good luck with that
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Michael did NOT drink it. That is absurd. But if he DID? WHO put it into the juice box, anyway? That he "drank it" is no defense, at all.
 
yeah by the way , Martinez was asked about Murray's statement regarding Dr.Adams and whether MJ received propofol as early as March by him. That came from Chernoff.

The prosecutor immediately asked him where did Murray say that incident occurred he said at MURRAY'S OFFICE. Very telling !!!!

Dr.Adams said Murray and MJ went to see him in his own clinic in March , he delivered medical records , and he gave propofol four times to MJ in 2008 NEVER in 2009, for extensive dental procedures , and there was a dentist there , never in Murray's presence.


So expect the hair samples to indicate use of propofol as early as March and April of 2009.

Again Murray was the doctor MJ was talking about to Lee. At least he admitted someone gave MJ propofol in his clinic in Vegas in March , and we all know it was not Adams
 
Soundmind said:
Flagan repeatedly said the amounts in MJ were very huge close to 150mg , and Murray only gave 25mg.
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so let's do a worst case scenario

- Murray gave 25 mg
- Assuming MJ drank and whole his stomach contents were propofol (not likely I know) - 70mg
so this brings our total to 95mg right? nowhere near 150mg.

if the above is true (I have no medical knowledge) doesn't this alone debunks the "drinking propofol" theory?
 
ivy said:
so let's do a worst case scenario

- Murray gave 25 mg
- Assuming MJ drank and whole his stomach contents were propofol (not likely I know) - 70mg
so this brings our total to 95mg right? nowhere near 150mg.

if the above is true (I have no medical knowledge) doesn't this alone debunks the "drinking propofol" theory?
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Yes, it debunks. Thanks.
 
so let's do a worst case scenario

- Murray gave 25 mg
- Assuming MJ drank and whole his stomach contents were propofol (not likely I know) - 70mg
so this brings our total to 95mg right? nowhere near 150mg.

if the above is true (I have no medical knowledge) doesn't this alone debunks the "drinking propofol" theory?
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Every thing debunk the drinking propofol theory, it is not even a realistic one.
 
Petrarose said:
Yes. By the way Pace, where is that quote from Mez about looking at the case as a totality. I need to see it now because I have to remind myself that some witnesses or some days will have more positive news than others and I have to look at the testimonies as a totality. In that way I don't freak out. I almost did with that guy who needed more math skills.
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Here you are.
I was watching this interview and said, gee, thanks universe for making sure I watched this.

Thomas Mesereau:
"You don't overreact to a bad day, or a good day.
You keep everything in perspective, it's a holistic thing.
You can't really score it, the way the media does and say, you know, 'It's the bottom of the third inning and one team is doing better than another team.'
It doesn't work that way, you have to look at everything in terms of the whole- and it's not done, until it's done.
So I never overreact to a good moment- or a bad moment. I just keep things in perspective, do it one day at a time and just keep focussed on your objective."
^^^He said that in an interview with William Wagener, taped in December of 2010, part 2 of the interview.

I'm about to tape that to my mirror, or make that a signature.

P.S.: Let me know when you plan on being in front of that court house drinking, as you promised in another Prelim. thread. I'll pour some 'juice' into my juicebox and join ya!!
 
ivy said:
my head hurts . anyone care to comment on the points below

1- Assuming that Murray gave MJ 25mg and MJ drank the rest - he needs to drink a large amount right? how much?

2a- again are the propofol bottles easily pourable?
2b- Wasn't the only needles available 10ml needles? so if the answer to question 1 is "a lot" and to 2a. is "not pourable" are we saying MJ took multiple times to fill the needle and push it into the juice cups?

3 - if he drank propofol, it wouldn't travel from his stomach right? I mean it wouldn't be found in his blood, eyes, liver etc right?

4- seriously what happens if you drink it?

read this " Well, to start with, it would taste nasty. It has a smell that's reminiscent of industrial chemicals, and it's oily. Yuk. I think that ingestion of a significant amount of it would cause vomiting. It is not supposed to be pharmacologically active when taken orally (as compared to fospropofol, which is)."

It doesn't seem like drinking it causes an instant death , cardiac arrest , respiratory arrest right? Plus it doesn't seem like sleep is induced by drinking it.

5- what about "dark liquid in the stomach" and that it's not white? yesterday we learned that propofol was oily and it would stay white for a while.

did I say my head hurts?
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So what the defense is really trying to say is that Murray went to the bathroom for LESS than two minutes. And during that time, MJ not only suddenly woke up all alert and coordinated as hell, collected several Propofol bottles, then either opened multiple 20 ml bottles and shook the contents into his juice bottle (and part would no doubt stay in the bottle, and part of it would no doubt go around the bottle because of the way you'd ned to shake it)...or he used syringes and got the Propofol in a syringe...then injected it into the bottle...repeated it about 4-5 times MINIMUM...Or....he put a spike on a 100 ml bottle...and then did the same using a syringe...And I guess he then drank it all at once....then went back to bed....then stopped breathing...and he died. Oh and did I say all that in less than 2 minutes? So...uhm...wow...that Propofol was absorbed from his stomach into his blood pretty damn fast! :scratch:Not to mention, how fast he died. Wow.

How it tastes...? I can only remember opening a 20 ml bottle once in y hurry and a tiny amount of the contents flew on my face and I think a drop landed in my mouth because I can recall instantly grimacing. However, I can't say if it was because of some taste or because it was just a reflex. And again, because it was literally just a drop. And a drop was on my jaw, and no it did not burn. But again, that too was literally just a tiny drop. So how it would taste if you'd drink it...no idea. Can't imagine it tasting too good.

If the effect is the same when taken orally as when given i.v......why aren't there more cases in which the person abusing it DRANK it?! Wouldn't that be a much more convenient way to do it since you wouldn't have to worry about needle marks? Faster, cleaner...and if works that fast...wow.

Also, as I mentioned before...Murray arrived to MJ's house before MJ and was alone in that room for at least 10 minutes before MJ arrived. So who's to say it wasn't MURRAY who put it in his juice. Or he could have put it in the juice while MJ was TRYING to sleep and had his eyes closed and wasn't paying attention. Maybe the whole oral thing came from Murray as some kind of wacky plan to use that as a method to "wean MJ off" from Propofol. :doh: Maybe he even TOLD Michael there is Propofol in the juice (for what purpouse...only Murray would know...) and MJ trusted Murray and drank it. Again, WHO KNOWS. Point is...no one will be able to prove who put the Propofol in the juice bottle...IF that even happened in the first place. It could have been Murray, MJ...or Murray could say the bottle was already there when he arrived...so...again, you would not be able to say for sure it was him even though he was alone in the room for 10 minutes. Unless there is some other evidence that will indicate that. So...point is...I don't think the defense can really use the "MJ dank it" theory as Murray's defense, because it could have just as well been Murray who put it in there without MJ's knowledge. And given his record and pattern of lying and hiding evidence...it would not look good for Murray even in that case.


Autumn II said:
There is no indication whatsoever that Michael was suicidal. He DID have some medical knowledge. He would NEVER have intentionally drunk propofol.

If the tactic used at trial is that "Michael drank the propofol," the counter tactic could be used, that "WHO put it in the juice-box?" If someone actually did that, that is premeditated MURDER. NOT a viable defense, IMHO.
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I agree...it would indicate premeditated murder...however as I said above...it would be almost impossible to prove beyond doubt who put it there. :(

ivy said:
I agree nothing Murray and his lawyers say makes sense. I mean Murray even claimed that MJ liked to inject the propofol himself and other doctors allowed it.

if that's the case why would he drink it, if he likes to inject it?



well the defense could call him. remember there are two sides.
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Yeah....ESPECIALLY since Murray HAD given him Propofol already just a few minutes beore...after he alledgedly "begged" for it. Doesn't make any sense! :doh: If Murray WOULND'T have given him Propofol one could maybe speculate and say "oh he gotfrustrated and took it". But Murray HAD given him Propofol SHORTLY before that...so where it the logic in all that?! :doh:
 
I think autopsy report said there was 70 grams NOT 70 mg in his stomach

right?


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yeah, my mistake 70 grams , lidociane to propofol ratio was 12 to 1. They said EVEN the amount of lidocaine was very small to be taken orally , and propofol was 12x less than lidocaine in his stomach
 
have just read all 40 pages of the discussion. I couldn't bring myself to follow the hearing in real time, so decided to read everything in the morning. Thank you to everyone in this thread for posting news, opinions and explanations.

I had no doubt the case would go to trial and it does. I am very glad his lisense in California was suspended. I hope Nevada and Texas will follow. I am disappointed that the charges weren't raised, but I hope he will be convicted and meet some MJ fans in jail.
 
Well that was a good day. :happy:

I'm happy to hear the news about his license and that it DOES go to Trail. :yes2:


But can anyone clear something up for me as I am unclear about something…

Did Murray find Michael, after the 2 minutes Murray came back from the bathroom?
Or, Did Murray see Michael whilst he was on the on a Phone Call, supposed to be monitoring?

I'm confused to which is true, the phone records and everything.
 
So does that mean that murder 2nd is officially out of the question??

Still good news about the trial and his license (btw. is that permanent?), but still... only 4 years maximum??? Come on!!!!!
 
twinklEE said:
So they have officially rested their case.. hmm well I sincerely hope the judge is not biased ans uses whatsoever brain the dear Lord has given him, and suspends his license immediately and orders a trial.

A very big and heartfelt THANK YOU to you Ivy, and all the others who contributed with numerous updates during these past 6 days the prelim lasted! :flowers:
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Indeed. Been lurking mightily and very much appreciate the efforts here.

(Still frustrated that the charges are only IVM)

PrincessMichaela said:
:better: hugs to you and everyone else who is nervous. I'm feeling nauseated and my heart is racing. I'm holding all of your hands right now.
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DieAlteHexe said:
Not to make light of this but I slept through all of it! I went to bed certain that nothing would happen overnight and was very surprised to see when I got up this morning that the prelim was all over. Not sure why I expected it to go on longer but I did not expect a resolution when I went to bed or I would've stayed up. Dang time zones. -_-
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i was the same have been following the hearings but went to bed,i,ve just logged on and read this,i,m glad it,s going to trial and he,s had his licence suspended,hope they can up the charges though,
 
man.in.the.mirror said:
i was the same have been following the hearings but went to bed,i,ve just logged on and read this,i,m glad it,s going to trial and he,s had his licence suspended,hope they can up the charges though,
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Unfortunately I believe that chance is now gone, if I understand it correctly.

Anyone?
 
Didn't that expert get on the stand and say that the juice box was never tested? So how would he know if there was any Propofol in it, let alone Michael drinking the propofol? And another strange thing is that they never mentioned Michael drinking it before. Why not hmmmmm? Really. This is so ridiculous. I can't help thinking that much like the 2005 trial for the prosecution, this whole case for the defense is based on exploiting the overall public's long-standing negative perceptions about Michael Jackson that have been hanging like a cloud for years and years. If it wasn't about that, there is no way that anybody would be buying Murray's excuses and switch-ups about what happened that terrible day. The entire situation is disgusting, senseless and sad.
 
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I don't understand why they didn't test the juice :doh: It seems they forgot to do a lot of things. Now it allows the defence to create ridiculous ideas.
 
I am numb!
Cannot believe that we find ourselves in a situation of having to face every day with the knowledge that Michael is not with us.
Gone forever ....
It's just so wrong. :(
Do we ever ... will we ever stop crying?
 
Billie Jean 78 said:
man.in.the.mirror said:
i was the same have been following the hearings but went to bed,i,ve just logged on and read this,i,m glad it,s going to trial and he,s had his licence suspended,hope they can up the charges though,
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Unfortunately I believe that chance is now gone, if I understand it correctly. Anyone?
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You can ADD or reduce charges at anyone time during the trial if the prosecution sees fit. I'd rather the prosecution does not show their cards right now. Murray's lawyers has kept a low profile and kept their defence it to a minimum.
Preliminary hearing has a lower standard for conviction.
 
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Don't forget guys the the defense only has to plant the seed for one of the jurers to think maybe Murray didn't do it. All 12 jurors will have to agree that he killed Michael, beyond a reasonable doubt. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong?)
 
well I hope they keep that idiot expert out of the trial if he's miscalculating numbers. And again Murray's attorneys are overlooking the fact that Murray left his patient alone under anesthesia, he wasn't monitoring him and he didn't have any idea on how to save his life if something went wrong. That is the most important thing and they are over looking it because they can't get around it.
 
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