Preliminary Hearing 11/1/11. Day Six. Discussion Thread

Finally, they are taking it to trial. Finally, someone has recognised that Murray's actions show he may be an incompetent doctor, and have suspended his licence.

I'd also understood that the timeline of the medication was as per the police, and Murray had said it was not accurate, back in 2009. So we will have to wait for the trial to get Murray's official version.

If Murray DID start giving MJ propofol in April, I think he should have acquired the correct equipment at the same time, and not waited 2 months for the contract to be signed, OR he should have not started administering propofol at all. Two months is a long time to be giving propofol without being able to monitor MJ. Scandalous if its true.

These Dr Feelgoods need to be stopped.
 
Murray would be unable to support his children or adequately provide for his defense.
like this disgusting creature ever supported/provided for anyone but his own lousy bigoted ass.
 
Why didn't Michael sign the contract with Murray? I find it odd that this man is being his doctor for all that time and no signed contract. Do you think that will be brought up in the trial?
 
If Murray lacked oxygen, and the ambu bag was in the closet, and if he lacked the proper medications, he should have PUT MICHAEL IN A CAR, and driven him to the hospital. It was only minutes away!

That's what I've been thinking for days now ... if you don't know the address, etc., etc. - why not just do that? That's even quicker than calling 911 and waiting for the EMT's (only that they can at least do some things right away while still at the house) and for the ambulance to arrive at the hospital. Either he didn't think of that either - or he knew it was too late.
 
the contract was for london. they said it was still being negotiated murray signed the final contract on the night of the 24th so it never got to mj
 
"milka i agree with you... the amount what is in his blood never is spoken off

soundmind said less than 200mg but i dont know why he-she said that?

By googling things and interpreting them one way. I think they could be interpreted in the opposite way as well. The "less than 200 mg" thing is not a fact. It's speculation.
 
All the evidence presented at the Prelimenary Hearing fits my original theory
that Michael Jackson was intentially and deliberatedly murdered.
 
i dont know if coughing is a fact she heared that maybe she said and it could easily be something else

That is correct. The sound would not be easy to identify over the phone (a dropped phone?)

"milka i agree with you... the amount what is in his blood never is spoken off

soundmind said less than 200mg but i dont know why he-she said that?

I don't know, either, because blood-levels were not given, and because propofol leaves the body so quickly.

5,85 is propably more the level in blood so that means higher..

and that mean if he not used a drip he killed michael with a bolus injection with at least 200mg..

Of course, it could easily have been a bolus injection.

then he left to make calles and came back to late

That is the most likely scenario.

no way he is calling in the room than michael would certanly not sleep..

Of course he wouldn't. The goal was apparently so that Michael could sleep, and making phone calls in the room would have been disruptive.
 
About the medical license being suspended in California....I am CERTAIN Nevada and Texas will do the same. I doubt they will let a doctor practise in their state when in another state it has been shown in COURT that he is a "danger to the public" if he he is allowed to continue. Also....just looking at Murray's defense's arguements, it becomes clear they know that too...They were like "You want it to have a punishment effect...but Dr. Murray doesn't even have a practise in California...he isn't treating any other patient's in California..." As in....if you suspend his license...it won't have any effect on Dr. Murray. WELL....if it doesn't...why do you try to ask the judge to NOT suspend his license with ANY kind of agruements at all then? UNLESS, you know that it will cause the other states to follow. OR...unless you know he does indeed have patients in California and his main income comes from those patients. And if he will lose that income, he won't be able to pay child support...andlet's not forget that if he will be behind with his child support payments, Nevada will immediately suspend his license too based on THAT.

Another thing....Murray will be on trial for involuntary manslaughter. That means...if he was reckless or not as a doctor. The judge just ordered his license to be suspended because Murray is a "danger to the public". The judge heard the evidence....what do you think his verdict would be? Not guilty? So in my opinion it already is very telling from how the judge ruled, what the outcome will be. Sure, you gotta convince the jurors...but the jurors also need to judge based on EVIDENCE. They won't be allowed to judge based on "gut feeling" or what their personal opinion is. And if one juror for example would say Murray is "not guilty", I would bet the other jurors would point to him/her what facts make it clear he most definately is guilty.

EVEN if Michael would have drunk the Propofol...it won't change the fact that MURRAY is guilty. Where did the Propofol come from ? Murray ordered busloads of it. Who started giving the Propofol? Dr. Murray. Under which doctor's treatment did MJ even DEVELOP this alleged addicion of his? DR. MURRAY!!! And this is important because it becomes from Dr. Murray's OWN statement....he said he was concerned MJ was DEVELOPING an addiction. He didn't say MJ already was addicted...no, he said "developing" as in "becoming" an addict. So....IF Michael was addicted to it...which doctor can be made responsible for the addiction? Dr. Murray. Which doctor did NOT make sure the emergency equipment and drugs you HAVE to have when giving Propofol is there? Dr. Murray. Which doctor administered Propofol without having a person there who knows how to assist with respiratory problems and knows how to intubate? Dr. Murray. Which doctor left a patient, who has gotten Propofol and other sedatives, alone in the room? Dr. Murray. Which doctor gave all the sedatives, etc. and not only left the room, but also didn't MONITOR the patient? Dr. Murray. Which doctor knew his patient (and I am putting this because Murray is trying to use it as a defense) is addicted to Propofol but a) still gave that to his patient and b ) left the patient alone with Propofol next to the patiet with syringes and needles and with a working i.v....Dr. Murray. Which doctor found a patient not breathing but waited over 20 minutes to call 911? Dr. Murray. Which doctor gave CPR on a bed. Dr. Murray. Which doctor tried to hide evidence? Dr. Murray. Which doctor did not tell the EMTs or the doctors at UCLA what drugs exactly he had given to the patient? Dr. Murray. Which doctor did not keep patient records while treating MJ? Dr. Murray.

So, even if MJ drank it....it won't change anything. Also, WHEN was MJ supposed to have drunk it anyways??? Don't forget that Propofol leaves the body fairly quickly, so if it was found MJ must have been drinking it fairly shortly before he died. And Dr. Murray has insisted that he left the room ONLY for two minutes MAXIMUM. So again, the same proplem as with the "self-injection"....would MJ really be alert enough that he'd be able to have the needed coordination to be SO FAST that he could open several Propofol bottles and then either pour or use a syringe to get the Propofol into his juice, then drink it, and then stop breathing....all that it less than two minutes?? Don't think so. And there is no way any juror will buy that either...because that is ridicilous. And EVEN if MJ would have managed that somehow, that would mean that he would have JUST stopped breathing, like right when Murray came back, so he was not beyond being saved at that point. Which again brings back Murray's responsibility as the only doctor there, especially as the only DOCTOR there who has admitted he administered Propofol. He was SUPPOSED to know exactly what to do an how to help the patient if he has trouble breathing. Don't forget that when giving Propofol you need to be PREPARED for those EXACT problems. So if Murray came out and saw MJ not breathing he SHOULD have been able to help MJ like it was nothing. Like he would not have bene doing anything else in his whole life. It should have been a ROUTINE to him. Because WHAT would have he done if MJ would have stopped breathing when HE gave the Propofol? What? What was his plan? So, again...whether MJ self-administered or if MUrray gave it to him really is beside the point. Dr. Murray was the doctor there who was supposed to be monitoring and helping the patient, and not only did he leave that patient alone, but he also did NOT KNOW how to help. So what was he doing administering Propofol in the first place? Itis COMPLETELY insane and totally reckless!

If Murray will now change his timeline because the 2 minutes won't give MJ enough time to wake up, open the bottles, get it in the juice, drink it and go back to bed and stop breathing...and say he was away and on the phone for over 40 minutes, then things will become even MORE troubling (sp?) for him. Because he would admit to have left a sedated patient ALONE with no monitoring that would have even alerted him with a SOUND, for 40 minutes. So in that case too whether MJ drank it or not would pretty much become secondary because it is INSANE to leave a sedated patient alone. ESPECIALLY one who has gotten Propofol!!! Also, if Muray says he was away for 40 minutes and not 2 minutes...then he also will admit has lied to the police officers from the beginning. Because he said he ONLY left for less than 2 minutes to go to the bathroom. So his credibility would completely be gone by then because nothing he has said so far makes any sense and there has already been a pattern of lying. So if he will admit to have been lying to the POLICE OFFICERS....do you understand what that will do to him?

So again, no matter WHAT way you twist it....there is no way out for Dr. Murray.

:clapping::clapping::clapping:

I completely agree. Murray is guilty no matter who administered Propofol. If Murray does not go to jail, I will really question American justice system. So if the system works you guys should not be worried even if they prove Michael injected or drunk Propofol himself (whivh they will not, I am sure).
 
Of course he wouldn't. The goal was apparently so that Michael could sleep, and making phone calls in the room would have been disruptive.

Unless he had given him (enough) Propofol before the calls (or during). Then he could have been in the room doing whatever, listening to Motorhead at full blast ...
 
i dont know if coughing is a fact she heared that maybe she said and it could easily be something else

Yes it could be somthing else.
The fact is Murray called her, they talked, and suddenly she heard what she described as a phone going off, a cough, mumbling, a commotion. Then Murray was not on the phone with her anymore, he didn't hang up either.
She said she didn't recognise Murray's voice.

Something went wrong at that time, or Murray at least something that he didn't expect happened, and Murray was not far, otherwise Murray would not have realised that something was happening, and she would not have heard anything.

That's what she said , and that's why the prosecution called her.

Of course this doesn't say who was coughing, even if it was really a cough. This will never proved as Sade didn't recognise anyone's voice.

I think she heard Michael, but it's a speculation on my part.

The reason why I think that is , if it was not Michael, then who was it ???

What could be so wrong or so unexpected that needed Murray's attention immediately, he didn't even hang up ?

If it wasn't a cough, then what could sound like a cough ?
 
Remember the 100ml Propofol bottle in the saline bag? The prosecutor said it was in the bag upside down, attached to the spike....If it really was, then that would pretty much show Murray did give Propofol as a drip. I mean, he even said himself he had previously given it as a drip. And if the interview was recorded, then it will be there for everyone to hear for themselves.

Why Murray would still use the saline bag and not just put the spike through the bottle..who knows...but it could be possible I guess. We don't use bags in our hospital, we use bottles, so I don't know if it would be possible to get the spike through the Propofol bottle if it was in the bag. But if it was attached to it when they found it... then I guess it's a yes. I found pictures in the internet of different i.v. bags, and depending on which kind Murray used...it could be possible I guess.

Check this out:

stock-photo-iv-bag-39724159.jpg

I guess if you push the bottle far down enough against the spike, you could use that system as a drip. Again, why Murray would go through all that trouble and not just put the spike straight through the Propofol bottle is what I don't understand. Or maybe he didn't know how else to hang the Propofol bottle (you could use tape, for example,...but maybe he didn't think of that...who knows WHAT he was thinking anyways...).

Another pic I found with a close up of the spike going in the bag.

92244460.jpg
 
Remember the 100ml Propofol bottle in the saline bag? The prosecutor said it was in the bag upside down, attached to the spike

It was not attached to a spike , Alvarez testified the empty bag with propofol vial inside was not attached to MJ at all. the saline bag he was asked to leave there was

as for cough under propofol it happens in intubated people , MJ was not intubated.


The prosecution whole point MJ did not do it because he was not able to inject it in the IV port , they found a 10cc syringe completely depressed and attached to that port.

When Flagan kept saying 150mg ,would have done this, the on set would have been that...the coroner did not say the amount were higher , the expert said we should take into consideration also the fluids and the amounts would have been 5 to 30% higher .

0.10 ug/ml is a very very small concentration, read the concentration in his stomach 0.13 , and they said that was relatively very very small.

propofol concentrations in his stomach was HIGHER than propofol concentration in his urine , take into account the rapid metabolizing of propofol into the urine ,within half an hour of a propofol dose , propofol would have disappeared from his blood, brain and liver and would have ended up completely in his urine , how could you still say he received lethal or huge amounts of propofol that day.

Go read about it on the Internet , it is everywhere, no way he received anything exceeding 200mg that day.
 
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What could be so wrong or so unexpected that needed Murray's attention immediately, he didn't even hang up ?


I'm not sure as far as the noises go that she heard, especially over a cell phone ... but that he dropped the phone and she heard something, a commotion, and that he didn't get back on the phone, not even when she called back several times ... that definitely means something.
 
I'm not sure as far as the noises go that she heard, especially over a cell phone ... but that he dropped the phone and she heard something, a commotion, and that he didn't get back on the phone, not even when she called back several times ... that definitely means something.
he obviously realised then. i dont think thats up for dispute? the question is had mj already been gone 30 mins as the medic said mj was gone anywhere from 20 mins to an hour b4 they got there at 12.30 or was that coughing mj.not sure if it fits becasue she heard coughing at vertually the same time he dropped the phone. if he was coughing he was still ok? the dropping of the phone would need to happen a couple of mins later if u go with the theory he injected mj as he was waking up
 
It was not attached to a spike , Alvarez testified the empty bag with propofol vial inside was not attached to MJ at all. the saline bag he was asked to leave there was

Well obviously the SPIKE GOING INTO THE BAG would not be attached to the patient.....But if the Propofol bottle in the bag was attached to a spike, it woudl speak for a drip. The tubing could have been cut off, or maybe it was even still hanging...I don't know. Murray was alone with MJ and had enough time to disconnect the drip if it was hanging and connected to the saline drip. So it is a possibility.
 
if he was coughing he was still ok? the dropping of the phone would need to happen a couple of mins later if u go with the theory he injected mj as he was waking up

Not necessarily. He could have noticed that he was waking up and then dropped the phone quickly for the injection, but never got back on the phone because something went wrong after a couple of seconds.
 
i have a really bad time believing the coughing.. i phone which is dropped on the floor every move can be like coughing could also be something moving, or a bag on the ground..
the he is coughing is more likely to be as a lie for murray.. but you could do a test in trial and react the scene..
 
I believe if that were true Milka he gave michael not long before that propofol so if he gave propofol round 11.00 then he aint awake anymore at 12
 
Well obviously the SPIKE GOING INTO THE BAG would not be attached to the patient.....But if the Propofol bottle in the bag was attached to a spike, it woudl speak for a drip. The tubing could have been cut off, or maybe it was even still hanging...I don't know. Murray was alone with MJ and had enough time to disconnect the drip if it was hanging and connected to the saline drip. So it is a possibility.


this is wast I was thinking too...he disconnected him from the propofol and reconnected the saline..after all..he DID hide the fact that he gave MJ propofol from paramedics
 
the vial was not attached to a spike , the long tubing with NO TRACES OF PROPOFOL was attached to the SALINE BAG VIA A SPIKE .

Roberto said the empty bag was hanging up there , nothing attached to it .


at 12.30 or was that coughing mj.not sure if it fits becasue she heard coughing at vertually the same time he dropped the phone

she said he was talking to her, then she realised he was not on the phone and believed the phone was in HIS POCKET , then she heard commotion and COUGHING , when asked whether the coughing was coming from Murray she said no, the voice was not Murray.
 
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but he was death at least 30 min the paremedics think, so the coughing could not been micheal

i dont believe that at all... he was already that, so maybe the stress was during 11.00 alone stressing not breathing.. pfff

The exact time of death is not clear, and I don't think it will ever be, scientifically. What I remember from the coroners thread, is that at best they could figure out a time frame of 1 hour (eg he died between 11 15 and 12 15)

What is certain from the perimortem wounds is that Michael was dead when he was taken off his bed (12 22 according to Alberto, 12 25 paramedics arrived).

Both paramedics said they thought he had been dead for 20 mn, one said 1 hour to 20 mn.

But if time of death can't be very precise, then there will never be a clear timeline to prove WHO did the injection, or who did NOT.

That's why I asked several times if that was important, because they will never prove beyond reasonable doubt that it was Murray who injected.
That's where the defense questions come from, IMO about implying self injection, ingestion, the bodyguards (who's next ???)

I think the prosecution goes by Murray's timeline just to prove him wrong, meaning to prove he's lying, and maybe also because there is no point for them to argue about his timeline.
 
who says her testimony is accurate...so what she was under oath...she could still be lieing...she never even would of came forward if the phone call time had not been brought forward...and she was told she had to come in and testify.
 
Not necessarily. He could have noticed that he was waking up and then dropped the phone quickly for the injection, but never got back on the phone because something went wrong after a couple of seconds.
true.......
 
who says her testimony is accurate...so what she was under oath...she could still be lieing...she never even would of came forward if the phone call time had not been brought forward...and she was told she had to come in and testify.
waiting 20 mins to call 911 hardly helps him though. nothing in her testimony does
 
The exact time of death is not clear, and I don't think it will ever be, scientifically. What I remember from the coroners thread, is that at best they could figure out a time frame of 1 hour (eg he died between 11 15 and 12 15)

What is certain from the perimortem wounds is that Michael was dead when he was taken off his bed (12 22 according to Alberto, 12 25 paramedics arrived).

Both paramedics said they thought he had been dead for 20 mn, one said 1 hour to 20 mn.

But if time of death can't be very precise, then there will never be a clear timeline to prove WHO did the injection, or who did NOT.

That's why I asked several times if that was important, because they will never prove beyond reasonable doubt that it was Murray who injected.
That's where the defense questions come from, IMO about implying self injection, ingestion, the bodyguards (who's next ???)

I think the prosecution goes by Murray's timeline just to prove him wrong, meaning to prove he's lying, and maybe also because there is no point for them to argue about his timeline.

I believe that when murray said first 10.40 that that mostly the true.. so that means trouble 11.00 death 11.15 thats like an hour what the paremedics said..

I believe that i think
 
but if thats true that TOD never is going to be known that would make him being charged at the necl and not helping and using propofol that we all know as a fact
 
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