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Preliminary Hearing 11/1/11. Day Six. Discussion Thread

http://www.drjunge.de/pdf/propofol_03.eng_web.pdf

Male nurse who abused propofol for the last six hours of his life injecting himself with 2200mg of propofol via bolus injections.


After a bolus injection consciousness is lost in patients at propofol blood concentrations of 1.3-6.8 ug/ml. Consciousnes was regained after 8-10min at concentrations of 1-2.5ug/ml . Thus the propofol blood concentration of 5.3ug/ml measured in our case is well within the range of the anaesthetically used concentrations during the institution of a narcosis, leading to the conclusion that death could have occured immediatley folloing the propofol injection.

Even during the disposition phase the rapid breakdown of propofol results in a steep decline of the propofol blood concentration. The extremely high urine concentration in our case 5.6ug/ml has to be taken as a sign of this elimination. ( where was the propofol in MJ's urine if he was given HUGE AMOUNTS and was swiming in propofol)

In our case the cause of death would not be a multipe overdose but an accidental complication caused by apnoe or drop in blood-pressure.

Hypotension and apnoea are relevant side effect which also occur with other anaesthetic agents and are probably dependant on the dose and speed of propofol administration. Apnoea during anaesthesia induction occurs more frequently with propofol than with other anaesthetics. Taking this evidence as well as the normal redistibution phase propofol blood levels into account, it is more probable that the death was caused by to fast injection of a normal propofol dose than by a propofol overdose.




Read and educate yourselves before going after people who post FACTUAL INFORMATION ,
 
I think it's pretty weird when someone abuses this serious subject to get attention and to attack others.
 
All I know is that Michael is gone because he had a doctor that didn't know what to do in case something went wrong. He had no business giving Michael propofol or anything he had no idea about. I don't understand these numbers and medications. I know the numbers are important for the expert testimonies and such.

There are people with no medical experience that know to call for help and call 911 immediately if somebody is not breathing. He had 2 phones and there were other people in the house. He just didn't care. He didn't do his job and Michael trusted this man with his life and he just didn't care. All Michael wanted was to sleep. That's all. I don't know why and how the idea of propofol came up to help him sleep but that's what happened. Murray didn't care because if he really did Michael would still be here.
 
Soundmind said:
http://www.drjunge.de/pdf/propofol_03.eng_web.pdf

Male nurse who abused propofol for the last six hours of his life injecting himself with 2200mg of propofol via bolus injections.


After a bolus injection consciousness is lost in patients at propofol blood concentrations of 1.3-6.8 ug/ml. Consciousnes was regained after 8-10min at concentrations of 1-2.5ug/ml . Thus the propofol blood concentration of 5.3ug/ml measured in our case is well within the range of the anaesthetically used concentrations during the institution of a narcosis, leading to the conclusion that death could have occured immediatley folloing the propofol injection.

Even during the disposition phase the rapid breakdown of propofol results in a steep decline of the propofol blood concentration. The extremely high urine concentration in our case 5.6ug/ml has to be taken as a sign of this elimination. ( where was the propofol in MJ's urine if he was given HUGE AMOUNTS and was swiming in propofol)

In our case the cause of death would not be a multipe overdose but an accidental complication caused by apnoe or drop in blood-pressure.

Hypotension and apnoea are relevant side effect which also occur with other anaesthetic agents and are probably dependant on the dose and speed of propofol administration. Apnoea during anaesthesia induction occurs more frequently with propofol than with other anaesthetics. Taking this evidence as well as the normal redistibution phase propofol blood levels into account, it is more probable that the death was caused by to fast injection of a normal propofol dose than by a propofol overdose.




Read and educate yourselves before going after people who post FACTUAL INFORMATION ,
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I repeat...why don't you START WITH YOURSELF. Obviously you don't UNDERSTAND what you are posting....:doh:

:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

Lawd. Anyways....whatever. :doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh:

"Ignorance is bliss"...........:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:
 
How about you start with YOURSELF before you start telling others they are "stupid". How about you go and educate YOURSELF about basic anatomy FIRST (and anatomy as we all know is scientifically proven)....and then we can talk.

You said the heart stopped because the circulation stopped, but conveniently went and edited it after I pointed it out. And I was not the only one who quoted you saying it.
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that's damn lie, go read the time of editing and you will know you are lying .

I'm posting facts against fictional theories. When you say he gave him IV drip and left him and then he came back after 5 , 10 40 minutes I have every right to disagree based on scientifically proven facts .

And you have no right to tell me you think you know but you know nothing , and we shall wait to hear what the experts say and when the experts took the stand and commented on the concentrations and the window of survival which did prove what I posted before , you damn well know you have no right to tell me I'm calling other members stupid.
 


Guys I always see the main posters in a thread as a subfamily, so break it up. Stay civil. Don't laugh at each other. Calm down.
 
marebear said:
All I know is that Michael is gone because he had a doctor that didn't know what to do in case something went wrong. He had no business giving Michael propofol or anything he had no idea about. I don't understand these numbers and medications. I know the numbers are important for the expert testimonies and such.

There are people with no medical experience that know to call for help and call 911 immediately if somebody is not breathing. He had 2 phones and there were other people in the house. He just didn't care. He didn't do his job and Michael trusted this man with his life and he just didn't care. All Michael wanted was to sleep. That's all. I don't know why and how the idea of propofol came up to help him sleep but that's what happened. Murray didn't care because if he really did Michael would still be here.
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I agree
 
StacyJ said:
I agree
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The thing that really hurts is that if he was watching him and called 911 non of this would happen. In hindsight it seems so easy to save someone--just a simple call and use your eyes.
 
Soundmind said:
How about you start with YOURSELF before you start telling others they are "stupid". How about you go and educate YOURSELF about basic anatomy FIRST (and anatomy as we all know is scientifically proven)....and then we can talk.



that's damn lie, go read the time of editing and you will know you are lying .

I'm posting facts against fictional theories. When you say he gave him IV drip and left him and then he came back after 5 , 10 40 minutes I have every right to disagree based on scientifically proven facts .

And you have no right to tell me you think you know but you know nothing , and we shall wait to hear what the experts say and when the experts took the stand and commented on the concentrations and the window of survival which did prove what I posted before , you damn well know you have no right to tell me I'm calling other members stupid.
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Okay...so you are right. Since you are the EXPERT. And as only YOU would know....you know...as an EXPERT..who has EDUCATED himself....it has been SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN....that when you stop breathing...your heart stops within a minute (of course the blood circulation has to stop first...as only you as the expert would know...since that also is a scientifict fact...).....and you are dead right on the spot. Dead will mean beyond being rescued. And once you are dead...you are dead and that's it. Right? Or ...wait....if you just do CPR you can bring the DEAD person back into life. Right? Or not? Hmmm...confusing...confusing....



It is SO GREAT to have someone SO SMART in this thread. Really....you learn new things about the SCIENTIFIC FACTS in almost every post of yours!! Amazing!!! You are a toxicology expert without having studied it...you know all about medicine....amazing. Wow....so smart....
 
marebear said:
All I know is that Michael is gone because he had a doctor that didn't know what to do in case something went wrong. He had no business giving Michael propofol or anything he had no idea about. I don't understand these numbers and medications. I know the numbers are important for the expert testimonies and such.

There are people with no medical experience that know to call for help and call 911 immediately if somebody is not breathing. He had 2 phones and there were other people in the house. He just didn't care. He didn't do his job and Michael trusted this man with his life and he just didn't care. All Michael wanted was to sleep. That's all. I don't know why and how the idea of propofol came up to help him sleep but that's what happened. Murray didn't care because if he really did Michael would still be here.
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Of course. There were two phones, a house full of people, and body-guards outside who probably knew CPR.

Uhm, may I respectfully suggest that using the report-button is a whole lot better than hashing things out in the threads if there are disagreements? :doh: With that said, this is a DISCUSSION, and there are bound to be differences of opinion. The problem lies in stating opinions as facts when they are clearly not facts. Moving right along. . .
 
Best to wait for the trial to get ALL the factual answers we're looking for instead of speculating! Whether u think your argument is facts no one on here is gonna be on the stand! So wait until the real experts are called then we can say they are facts! Cause right now it's just all opinions by us as far as I'm concern!!
 
Petrarose said:
The thing that really hurts is that if he was watching him and called 911 non of this would happen. In hindsight it seems so easy to save someone--just a simple call and use your eyes.
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yeah..I agree with you...all he had to do was stand by MJ's side...and not leave him...and use one of those cell phones he had. It is just so so sad..
 
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How long before the trial will start? My hope now is that a jury will see how wrong Murray was in everything he did and find him guilty.
 
I hope the trial is this year. Let's see, we are in January and the next court date is in 2 weeks. I hope there is no long wait.
 
someone said it could take 8-10 months..I think that was a poster..not an actual public official.
 
Autumn II said:
Of course. There were two phones, a house full of people, and body-guards outside who probably knew CPR.
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I agree. And that is one of many things that makes me so angry about what happened to Michael. A house full of people and bodyguards outside. But Murray still could not yell down the stairs for somebody to call 911 right away? Ridiculous. There was no reason for this. He could have saved Michael if he wanted to by doing things right and by the book to begin with, including having the proper monitoring equipment. Now we have him blaming everybody else and and especially Michael for what took place. Talk about passing the buck. Jeez. This is one of the most stupid, screwed-up and disgusting cases of malpractice I've ever heard of in my whole life. It is absolutely disgraceful.
 
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Soundmind said:
THAT WHAT I POSTED FIRST:


the fact they remained high meant his heart stopped within one minute ,stop trying to be funny , you are silly

Have you bothered to read the testimony posted on trials and tribulations . They talked about that one minute survival window and the coroner did say the levels found would have been reached within one minute if they did not drop that only means blood circulation stopped and blood circulation stops when the heart stops. That means his heart must have stopped within one minute for these concetration to remain that HIGH.

The CORONER AND THE EXPERT BOTH AGREED and you are here still arguing .

screw you , you are unable to comprehend what I posted. Never ever I believed Murray left MJ's bedroom.

So he made the calles where michael was? and that would be ok with michael, him trying to sleep, and murray talking to his girlfriends... yeah right

educate yourself before entering into debate about scientifically proven things especially when these things have already being discussed at the hearing .
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"the fact they remained high meant his heart stopped within one minute " (soundmind)


Thats no fact, they never said that like that!
So every bolus injection on surgery stops a heart within minutes?

Educate yourself of a case online is not possible. you only can do study on the matter but never ever you can say i read this its a fact. every human being is different and has different reactions.. so to say to summer etc to educate is a litlle harsh..
besides even if u have a medical degree its still difficult to say anything with certain facts... for a fact u need study, to re act the scene scientifully with diffferent factors with different scientist.
 
Even when Michael's heart stopped beating he was still alive because his brain was still functioning. Michael didn't die within 1 minute. He could have been saved by Murray :(
 
It's horrible if Murray indeed gave Michael a rapid injection and witnessed him going into respiratory and cardiac arrest, but instead of calling 911 immediately, he tried to revive Michael himself (so nobody would know) and failed. Precious time had been lost. Then I don't know why it's not a murder. He took risks. He tried to save himself rather than Michael.

But I'm more inclined to believe that he didn't even notice how Michael died because he was too busy chatting on the phone (two phones!)
 
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marebear said:
How long before the trial will start? My hope now is that a jury will see how wrong Murray was in everything he did and find him guilty.
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took 9 months with mjs so i guess no longer than that.heck knows depends on how many hearings they have over evidence etc u can see the defence dragging it out
 
Did Murray's attorney ever give a reason as to why Murray didn't call 911 right away when he 'discovered' MJ wasn't breathing?
 
Hi all. I'm more of a reader than a poster but am getting so confused by all the reading...all this info is so hard to keep straight but about this I am crystal clear: Murray was in over his head and he placed his greed for money above his solemn duty to his patient: to do not harm. And when things started to go horribly wrong, he panicked and tried to conceal his actions. Omitting to tell the paramedics and the doctors at the hospital the drugs Michael had been given is simply unforgivable. Well really all his actions are unforgivable. Simply put, Murray placed his own self preservation above the needs of a man who entrusted him with his life. I can't help but wonder if this is the first time Murray has done that...who knows, perhaps there have been others no one knows about.

Reading the tox. report of the autopsy, the propofol concentration in the stomach contents is recorded as 0.13 mg not µg. Converting that comes out to 130 µg. The propofol levels in the blood samples, etc., are listed as µg/ml but the stomach contents simple say mg. So how can mg be compared to µg/ml? I mean, the report doesn't say mg per ml, just mg. Isn't that a bit like trying to compare a liquid measurement (ml) to a weight (mg)? You know, apples to oranges?

As far as the idea of propofol levels not dropping because of cessation of circulation, well CPR was being performed effectively from at least 1230 (commencing with the EMTs) until he was pronounced almost 2 hours later. The EMTs record pulses with CPR plus he was being ventilated. Therefore, I would have to think that would surely have an effect on the propofol level in his system? Wouldn't it?
 
cinzia;3192344 said:
Hi all. I'm more of a reader than a poster but am getting so confused by all the reading...all this info is so hard to keep straight but about this I am crystal clear: Murray was in over his head and he placed his greed for money above his solemn duty to his patient: to do not harm. And when things started to go horribly wrong, he panicked and tried to conceal his actions. Omitting to tell the paramedics and the doctors at the hospital the drugs Michael had been given is simply unforgivable. Well really all his actions are unforgivable. Simply put, Murray placed his own self preservation above the needs of a man who entrusted him with his life. I can't help but wonder if this is the first time Murray has done that...who knows, perhaps there have been others no one knows about.

Reading the tox. report of the autopsy, the propofol concentration in the stomach contents is recorded as 0.13 mg not µg. Converting that comes out to 130 µg. The propofol levels in the blood samples, etc., are listed as µg/ml but the stomach contents simple say mg. So how can mg be compared to µg/ml? I mean, the report doesn't say mg per ml, just mg. Isn't that a bit like trying to compare a liquid measurement (ml) to a weight (mg)? You know, apples to oranges?

As far as the idea of propofol levels not dropping because of cessation of circulation, well CPR was being performed effectively from at least 1230 (commencing with the EMTs) until he was pronounced almost 2 hours later. The EMTs record pulses with CPR plus he was being ventilated. Therefore, I would have to think that would surely have an effect on the propofol level in his system? Wouldn't it?
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Hi Cinzia, Yes cpr was given by EMT's But Michael was already dead beyond revival when they arrived. A doctor at from the hospital told the ETM's to pronounce him dead after their efforts failed, but Murray wouldn't let them, that is why he was pronounced dead at hospital at a later time.
 
rita.gibson said:
Hi Cinzia, Yes cpr was given by EMT's But Michael was already dead beyond revival when they arrived. A doctor at from the hospital told the ETM's to pronounce him dead after their efforts failed, but Murray wouldn't let them, that is why he was pronounced dead at hospital at a later time.
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Thanks, Rita. Yes, I suppose that's true... I found this : "Note that the level of heart blood propofol at autopsy was higher than that found in the femoral blood. This suggests that propofol undergoes the process of postmortem redistribution. In this phenomenon, after death a drug diffuses out of tissues and into the blood pool, producing a result somewhat higher than the actual level at the moment of death. This effect is more marked in blood obtained from central locations (heart, central vessels) compared to blood drawn from peripheral vessels such as the femoral vein. It is interesting to note that in in this case, the propofol level measured on samples of the hospital blood was higher than either postmortem level. This may be because any intravenous fluid administered to Mr. Jackson during resuscitation in the emergency department diluted the concentration of the drug." http://www.thepoisonreview.com/2010/02/13/michael-jackson-toxicology-report-released/

I really don't know what is meant by 'hospital blood'. Anyone?

Also, I remember reading during one of the days, that he was exposed from the waist down and had a condom catheter (ugh, I even hate to type such things, it's so damned intrusive..) Thought that was really odd. And if Murray had such a hard time getting Michael to sleep and if Michael spent more time awake than asleep as seems was the case, why on earth would a catheter be needed? Unless the plan was to sedate him to a very deep level?
I dunno. I think there's more here than I really want to know. Just thinking about it is upsetting...
 
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