Preliminary Hearing 11/1/11. Day Six. Discussion Thread

[summer]

i guess another excuse is he only gave 25mg so when mj was still asleep after the time he should have woken up ie 5 mins max thats why he left the room for 40 mins! becasue mj wwasnt under the effect of the drug anymore and was sleeping normally.

the most horrible thing about this is whatever the outcome we will prob never know what really happened to mj in those last hours and we will have to live with that ontop of everything else

Only the problem will still be that he was assuming MJ will wake up within 5 minutes and will be okay. When you give Propofol...no matter what amount...it is your JOB to make SURE that the patient wakes up. THAT'S why you are there. To make sure they wake up alright. So unless MJ really woke up and talked to Murray and gave answers that made it clear he was awake and alert, Murray walking away is reckless. Because how would he KNOW Michael will be okay. How was he able to KNOW if there wasn't a complication after all, and MJ DIDN'T wake up...if he was away. And according to Murray MJ was sleeping when he left, so that means here was no way for Murray to know what was going on with MJ and IF he was gonna wake up within 2 minutes or 5 minutes or at ANY time at all. Why would there be a need for such a thing as a recovery nurse, if it's enough to just assume that the patient will wake up after an estimated time and if it's okay and safe to leave them alone. After giving Propofol, you need to make sure the patient wakes up. If you leave a sleeping patient who has not woken up yet, it is NOT SAFE to leave them alone.

 

[Autumn II]

The defences's theory of the timeline could prove pivotal. They say the police got it wrong, how, when they were questioning Murray for two days? What possible way could they use a timeline to support their argument. Oh Michael drank propofol when Murray was gone? Right, so he convinently woke up, poured propofol in his juice, and drank it in the space of two minutes? Right......biggest pile of crap. All they're hanging on is those two minutes when Murray was out of the room convinently saying thats when it all happened yet neglecting to mention the fact he should never have been out of the room anyway.

Right. As you said, "biggest pile of crap." If Murray was gone for TWO minutes, if he'd returned to see Michael not breathing, he could have/should have immediately called 911. And if Michael was in cardiac arrest and he'd initiated EFFECTIVE CPR, that could have been enough to save Michael. And then EMTs would have arrived.

Plus, they never tested the juice-box, did they? For traces of propofol? And if not, or if none were found, then that defense is no defense at all.

 

[Ingelief]

That is inaccurate. Propofol intoxication causes death by first causing a respiratory arrest, ie one stops breathing. With no oxygen to the brain and other vital organs in the body, a cardiac arrest follows ie one's heart stops beating. Propofol in those concentrations itself does not directly cause the heart to stop beating. And if the patient is found within a short time of having stopped breathing, supporting the breathing will rectify the problem if this is before there is damage to the brain etc from the lack of oxygen. So death is not within one minute. The brain can survive for a few minutes without oxygen.

precise what i said

 

[ExoticPrincess]

Med board: Jackson doctor still has Nevada license

<!--subtitle--><!--byline-->By KEN RITTER Associated Press
<!--date-->Posted: 01/12/2011 11:59:04 AM PST
<!--secondary date-->Updated: 01/12/2011 12:09:03 PM PST



<SCRIPT language=JavaScript> var requestedWidth = 0; </SCRIPT>
<SCRIPT language=JavaScript> if(requestedWidth > 0){ document.getElementById('articleViewerGroup').style.width = requestedWidth + "px"; document.getElementById('articleViewerGroup').style.margin = "0px 0px 10px 10px"; } </SCRIPT>LAS VEGAS—A medical board official says Michael Jackson's personal physician still has a license to practice in Nevada.
Nevada Board of Medical Examiners chief Douglas Cooper tells The Associated Press the board is reviewing a California judge's order suspending Dr. Conrad Murray's ability to practice in that state.
But Cooper says Nevada hasn't made a decision yet.
Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor on Tuesday called it a public safety issue to prevent Murray from practicing medicine pending his involuntary manslaughter trial in Jackson's death.
Murray lives in Las Vegas and has licenses to practice in Nevada and Texas. His lawyer, Charles Peckham in Houston, says he hopes Texas follows Nevada's lead, reviews Murray's case and talks with patients before making a decision

http://http://www.dailynews.com/ci_17077464?IADID=Search-www.dailynews.com-www.dailynews.com

It just irritates me reading this! Review what! he killed a man, should'nt that be enough! You know what? I would'nt be surprised if both Texas and Nevada declined to revoke his license.

When it comes to fairness on a human level, MJ seemed to always get a raw deal!

 

[Ingelief]

off topic

maybe murrays killes another person in nevade and then he gets the death penalty (still there right)

off topic

 

[xthunderx2]

Med board: Jackson doctor still has Nevada license

<!--subtitle--><!--byline-->By KEN RITTER Associated Press
<!--date-->Posted: 01/12/2011 11:59:04 AM PST
<!--secondary date-->Updated: 01/12/2011 12:09:03 PM PST



<script language="JavaScript"> var requestedWidth = 0; </script>
<script language="JavaScript"> if(requestedWidth > 0){ document.getElementById('articleViewerGroup').style.width = requestedWidth + "px"; document.getElementById('articleViewerGroup').style.margin = "0px 0px 10px 10px"; } </script>LAS VEGAS—A medical board official says Michael Jackson's personal physician still has a license to practice in Nevada.
Nevada Board of Medical Examiners chief Douglas Cooper tells The Associated Press the board is reviewing a California judge's order suspending Dr. Conrad Murray's ability to practice in that state.
But Cooper says Nevada hasn't made a decision yet.
Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor on Tuesday called it a public safety issue to prevent Murray from practicing medicine pending his involuntary manslaughter trial in Jackson's death.
Murray lives in Las Vegas and has licenses to practice in Nevada and Texas. His lawyer, Charles Peckham in Houston, says he hopes Texas follows Nevada's lead, reviews Murray's case and talks with patients before making a decision

http://http://www.dailynews.com/ci_17077464?IADID=Search-www.dailynews.com-www.dailynews.com

It just irritates me reading this! Review what! he killed a man, should'nt that be enough! You know what? I would'nt be surprised if both Texas and Nevada declined to revoke his license.

When it comes to fairness on a human level, MJ seemed to always get a raw deal!

I cannot believe they have not taken hi license yet.
well what the hell..you would think the patience in those two states would say..oh my he killed a man..I am not going to him anymore..

 

[sophie]

no one is talking about a drip any more, the prosecution is going with the bolus injection theory BASED ON THE EVIDENCE. The defence tried first the IV drip, found nothing physically support that , they moved to the broken syringe and now orally taken propofol. They will be back to the syringe .

yes they will have to go back to the syringe, there was not enough propofol found in the stomach to support the oral theory.

but let's not forget the lorazepam. they found huge amounts of lorazepam in blood samples. mj was asleep or groggy when the lethal propofol bolus was administered. how could he have self-administered propofol in such a state?


here is how i see it:

they finally admit it was a bolus shot as we have suspected all along.

so mj wasnt under the influence of propofol when murray allegedly left the room at 11h (now, that's breaking news!). because from the 25mg propofol mini-bolus murray allegedly gave at 1040h mj would have woken up long since by then... (why even bother to give him that amount, murray??).

but mj at 11h was still heavily sedated, i believe once we have the full tox report with all the missing "-" amounts filled in it will show he was under the influence of lorazepam. liver, urine, it was everywhere.

if (as the defence claims) mj woke up from his lorazepam induced sleep before noon to self-administer a lethal propofol dose, how come the coroner found huge amounts of lorazepam in mj's blood? as i said above, mj must have been asleep or at least groggy when the lethal propofol bolus was administered. how could mj have self-administered propofol in this state?

so i guess it was the NOI then..?

you have to wonder though about the girlfriend statement. who did cough if murray says it wasn't mj? maybe the mystery man who "really" killed mj? which would place murray in an awkward position since his girlfriend overheard him mumbling to the coughing stranger..

and what has happened to the story murray told UCLA doctors that mj still had a pulse when murray "found" him? so supposedly the murderer(?) had just left the scene when murray "haphazardly" entered to find a dying mj? but did not bother to call 911 right away? instead spent time doing cpr with one hand on a bed + collect used propofol bottles (why hide evidence, murray, we thought you are innocent??)


i say: busted.

 

[Justthefacts]

All of this is formally his license will be taking in both states. And this what he told the cops is the story he is stuck with. You can't radically change your story because you got caught lying. Did we learn nothing from 2005?

 

[Ashtanga]

I cannot believe they have not taken hi license yet.

Yes, they're still doing reviews after all that was said in audiences. :doh: What was said at the audiences was not enough? Of course it was! Unbelievable! :bugeyed

 

[twinklEE]

waiting 20 mins to call 911 hardly helps him though. nothing in her testimony does

I cannot believe they have not taken hi license yet.
well what the hell..you would think the patience in those two states would say..oh my he killed a man..I am not going to him anymore..

why not just give him the noble prize for killing Michael Jackson, isn't that what most of the people want anyway?!

 

[summer]

Med board: Jackson doctor still has Nevada license

<!--subtitle--><!--byline-->By KEN RITTER Associated Press
<!--date-->Posted: 01/12/2011 11:59:04 AM PST
<!--secondary date-->Updated: 01/12/2011 12:09:03 PM PST



<SCRIPT language=JavaScript> var requestedWidth = 0; </SCRIPT>
<SCRIPT language=JavaScript> if(requestedWidth > 0){ document.getElementById('articleViewerGroup').style.width = requestedWidth + "px"; document.getElementById('articleViewerGroup').style.margin = "0px 0px 10px 10px"; } </SCRIPT>LAS VEGAS&#8212;A medical board official says Michael Jackson's personal physician still has a license to practice in Nevada.
Nevada Board of Medical Examiners chief Douglas Cooper tells The Associated Press the board is reviewing a California judge's order suspending Dr. Conrad Murray's ability to practice in that state.
But Cooper says Nevada hasn't made a decision yet.
Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor on Tuesday called it a public safety issue to prevent Murray from practicing medicine pending his involuntary manslaughter trial in Jackson's death.
Murray lives in Las Vegas and has licenses to practice in Nevada and Texas. His lawyer, Charles Peckham in Houston, says he hopes Texas follows Nevada's lead, reviews Murray's case and talks with patients before making a decision

http://http://www.dailynews.com/ci_17077464?IADID=Search-www.dailynews.com-www.dailynews.com

It just irritates me reading this! Review what! he killed a man, should'nt that be enough! You know what? I would'nt be surprised if both Texas and Nevada declined to revoke his license.

When it comes to fairness on a human level, MJ seemed to always get a raw deal!

I cannot believe they have not taken hi license yet.
well what the hell..you would think the patience in those two states would say..oh my he killed a man..I am not going to him anymore..

Yes, they're still doing reviews after all that was said in audiences. :doh: What was said at the audiences was not enough? Of course it was! Unbelievable! :bugeyed

why not just give him the noble prize for killing Michael Jackson, isn't that what most of the people want anyway?!

Everybody calm down. Murray's license in California was suspended YESTERDAY. Murray has 24 hours to notify the boards in Nevada and Texas. That time limit has barely expired. NO medical board ANYWHERE would ever just go and say "okay...suspended" with a snap of their fingers. It needs to be done formally, no doubt with a meeting with people who will make the final decision. It does not mean that he will keep his license. It just means they have not made the decision YET, but will do so. And it's higly unlikely they will let him practise. But again, don't get all dramatic just yet. It's only been barely a day.

 

[Soundmind]

The defences's theory of the timeline could prove pivotal. They say the police got it wrong, how, when they were questioning Murray for two days? What possible way could they use a timeline to support their argument. Oh Michael drank propofol when Murray was gone? Right, so he conveniently woke up, poured propofol in his juice, and drank it in the space of two minutes? Right......biggest pile of crap. All they're hanging on is those two minutes when Murray was out of the room conveniently saying that's when it all happened yet neglecting to mention the fact he should never have been out of the room anyway.

the prosecution were not prepared for that orally taken propofol because you would have to be real dumb to even consider that was what happened in this case. Nevertheless, they got notice of this possible 'theory' and will be prepared to shut it down .

again please dont put this information here as though it is fact..we do not know this for sure...if you are saying that it is your opinion then that is different..but to put as fact..that is not right...you could be wrong ..You could also be right..but we dont know this.

It is a fact, it was being discusses at the hearing , Flagan did ask the coroner how long the onset of propofol would have been with 4.5 concentration and he did say within one minute

It's a medical fact that propofol concentrations starts to drop within one minute due to rapid distribution and the fact they remained that HIGH meant his heart stopped within one minute because circulation stopped.

Flagan asked them how could have Murray bring MJ back under that propofol concentration he said he could have brought breathing back and then MJ might have been saved.

The fact that no breathing was back, meant MJ's hurt stopped and if you goes with what the expert says of possibly higher concentration perimortem then that means the survival time could not have been more than one minute.
THAT'S CALLED SCIENCE . It is a fact , it is stated during the hearing.

That is inaccurate. Propofol intoxication causes death by first causing a respiratory arrest, in one stops breathing. With no oxygen to the brain and other vital organs in the body, a cardiac arrest follows in one's heart stops beating. Propofol in those concentrations itself does not directly cause the heart to stop beating. And if the patient is found within a short time of having stopped breathing, supporting the breathing will rectify the problem if this is before there is damage to the brain etc from the lack of oxygen. So death is not within one minute. The brain can survive for a few minutes without oxygen

The dose Murray gave was normal 10cc syringe would not have caused death if it was given slowly but a rapid normal dose did cause death before and this is what the prosecution are claiming occurred in this case based on the coroners "by bolus injection "

Murray said himself that previously he gave a bolus to get MJ to sleep and then gave a drip to keep MJ sleeping.

Murray could have injected a bolus around 10:40 a.m...then put MJ on a Propofol drip that was going in with a too big of a dose....Murray left the room for 40 minutes...MJ would not have stopped breathing immediately, but by the time he had gotten too much of Propofol...and Murray was out of the room by then. Then Murray came back, saw that MJ was not breathing and panicked...disconnected the Propofol drip...and the rest we know. Murray said he gave a bolus and THEN started the drip. In that case MJ can't wake up and adjust the low of the drip because he is continuously getting Propofol.

We don't know if there was a drip, all I'm saying is that it's a possibility. And the Propofol bottle in the i.v. bag could speak for it.

Chernoff got Martinez to admit that Murray never said the word IV DRIP during the interview . Martinez said Murray told him he gave infusion of 25 dose starting at 10:40 mg and remained there for ten minutes then left for 2 minutes returned MJ was not breathing .

Martinez said he believed in order for propofol to be given for 20 minutes it must have been an IV drip and when he wrote a summary of the interview he wrote the word IV drip . On the recording tape Murray never mentioned the word IV drip but also he said something very unlikely , he infused 25mg for 20 minutes which is unrealistic to say the least .

Could you please explain that again ??? I'm really tired (haven't slept much, I work early in the morning and the prelim ended at 2 am here....), I'm confused about this.
If it's definitely not a drip, then it can help narrow a timeline a little bit.

yeah, Flagan asked the coroner why do they believe MJ did not do it he said because their expert expalined to them how mj could not have injected propofol into the port of the tube due to the configuration of the IV.

Flagan and the woman who tested for propofol in the IV system went over every piece of evidence and the same for the prosecution they pointed out where propofol was found and where it was not.

None talked about an IV drip when talking about the physical evidence and Martinez admitted Murray never claimed he gave an IV drip.

 

[8701girl]

Everybody calm down. Murray's license in California was suspended YESTERDAY. Murray has 24 hours to notify the boards in Nevada and Texas. That time limit has barely expired. NO medical board ANYWHERE would ever just go and say "okay...suspended" with a snap of their fingers. It needs to be done formally, no doubt with a meeting with people who will make the final decision. It does not mean that he will keep his license. It just means they have not made the decision YET, but will do so. And it's higly unlikely they will let him practise. But again, don't get all dramatic just yet. It's only been barely a day.

I dont think murray will notify the nevada & texas boards, hes too much of a wimp 2 do that.

 

[Soundmind]

yes they will have to go back to the syringe, there was not enough propofol found in the stomach to support the oral theory.

but let's not forget the lorazepam. they found huge amounts of lorazepam in blood samples. mj was asleep or groggy when the lethal propofol bolus was administered. how could he have self-administered propofol in such a state?


here is how i see it:

they finally admit it was a bolus shot as we have suspected all along.

so mj wasnt under the influence of propofol when murray allegedly left the room at 11h (now, that's breaking news!). because from the 25mg propofol mini-bolus murray allegedly gave at 1040h mj would have woken up long since by then... (why even bother to give him that amount, murray??).

but mj at 11h was still heavily sedated, i believe once we have the full tox report with all the missing "-" amounts filled in it will show he was under the influence of lorazepam. liver, urine, it was everywhere.

if (as the defence claims) mj woke up from his lorazepam induced sleep before noon to self-administer a lethal propofol dose, how come the coroner found huge amounts of lorazepam in mj's blood? as i said above, mj must have been asleep or at least groggy when the lethal propofol bolus was administered. how could mj have self-administered propofol in this state?

so i guess it was the NOI then..?

you have to wonder though about the girlfriend statement. who did cough if murray says it wasn't mj? maybe the mystery man who "really" killed mj? which would place murray in an awkward position since his girlfriend overheard him mumbling to the coughing stranger..

and what has happened to the story murray told UCLA doctors that mj still had a pulse when murray "found" him? so supposedly the murderer(?) had just left the scene when murray "haphazardly" entered to find a dying mj? but did not bother to call 911 right away? instead spent time doing cpr with one hand on a bed + collect used propofol bottles (why hide evidence, murray, we thought you are innocent??)


i say: busted.

I know , the expert not only said lorazepam concentration was high, he said it must have been " much higher" than what Murray admitted to.
As for the toxicology results on lorazepam , it shall be very interesting. they brought an independent expert to talk about propofol concentrations not the one quoted in the autopsy.

They brought the one who did the propofol testing and left those who did the benzos testing, Flagan tried to ask her about Lorazepam she said it was not her speciality.

They do believe lorazepam is key in this case apparently.

As for liver and urine, I doubt it, lorazepam was not given early that day, as Murray claimed, maybe it did not have enough time to redistribute from the blood into the liver and urine.

Murray only gave that detailed time line and claimed the last lorazepam dose was at 5 am to downplay the significance of using such a drug with propofol.

The expert did say, if these drugs were given separately with these doses , they would not have caused death.

 

[summer]

the prosecution were not prepared for that orally taken propofol because you would have to be real dumb to even consider that was what happened in this case. Nevertheless, they got notice of this possible 'theory' and will be prepared to shut it down .


It is a fact, it was being discusses at the hearing , Flagan did ask the coroner how long the onset of propofol would have been with 4.5 concentration and he did say within one minute

It's a medical fact that propofol concentrations starts to drop within one minute due to rapid distribution and the fact they remained that HIGH meant his heart stopped within one minute because circulation stopped.

Flagan asked them how could have Murray bring MJ back under that propofol concentration he said he could have brought breathing back and then MJ might have been saved.

The fact that no breathing was back, meant MJ's hurt stopped and if you goes with what the expert says of possibly higher concentration perimortem then that means the survival time could not have been more than one minute.
THAT'S CALLED SCIENCE . It is a fact , it is stated during the hearing.

The CIRCULATION stops when the HEART stops. Not vice versa. :doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh: And here we have a person talking about SCIENCE and insists what he says is a fact. Okay then.....:doh:

So....if I go swimming and dive and hold my breath for a minute...my heart will stop? :doh:

 

[8701girl]

The CIRCULATION stops when the HEART stops. Not vice versa. :doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh: And here we have a person talking about SCIENCE and insists what he says is a fact. Okay then.....:doh:

So....if I go swimming and dive and hold my breath for a minute...my heart will stop? :doh:

Yes it clear he doesnt know a thing of what hes talking bout lol

 

[xthunderx2]

the prosecution were not prepared for that orally taken propofol because you would have to be real dumb to even consider that was what happened in this case. Nevertheless, they got notice of this possible 'theory' and will be prepared to shut it down .


It is a fact, it was being discusses at the hearing , Flagan did ask the coroner how long the onset of propofol would have been with 4.5 concentration and he did say within one minute

It's a medical fact that propofol concentrations starts to drop within one minute due to rapid distribution and the fact they remained that HIGH meant his heart stopped within one minute because circulation stopped.

Flagan asked them how could have Murray bring MJ back under that propofol concentration he said he could have brought breathing back and then MJ might have been saved.

The fact that no breathing was back, meant MJ's hurt stopped and if you goes with what the expert says of possibly higher concentration perimortem then that means the survival time could not have been more than one minute.
THAT'S CALLED SCIENCE . It is a fact , it is stated during the hearing.



The dose Murray gave was normal 10cc syringe would not have caused death if it was given slowly but a rapid normal dose did cause death before and this is what the prosecution are claiming occurred in this case based on the coroners "by bolus injection "


Chernoff got Martinez to admit that Murray never said the word IV DRIP during the interview . Martinez said Murray told him he gave infusion of 25 dose starting at 10:40 mg and remained there for ten minutes then left for 2 minutes returned MJ was not breathing .

Martinez said he believed in order for propofol to be given for 20 minutes it must have been an IV drip and when he wrote a summary of the interview he wrote the word IV drip . On the recording tape Murray never mentioned the word IV drip but also he said something very unlikely , he infused 25mg for 20 minutes which is unrealistic to say the least .



yeah, Flagan asked the coroner why do they believe MJ did not do it he said because their expert expalined to them how mj could not have injected propofol into the port of the tube due to the configuration of the IV.

Flagan and the woman who tested for propofol in the IV system went over every piece of evidence and the same for the prosecution they pointed out where propofol was found and where it was not.

None talked about an IV drip when talking about the physical evidence and Martinez admitted Murray never claimed he gave an IV drip.

because Murray left Michael's freakin bedside..you keep saying that Murray was right there when Michael died.....that the cough that was heard was from Michael...NOW your saying that he had no breath back and his heart stopped because of a higher concentration...Michael's heart stopped because Murray was not there to use the ambu bag like he should of to put air back in Michael's lungs....THAT is testified too....Michael died because Murray is a damn loser and let him die...he wasn't monitoring him like he was suppoe to be....and I am so damn sick and tired of your damn stories changing.....you are as bad as Murray..go back and read someof your other posts..earlier you were fighting about Murray being near the bed.. If this was the case then Michael would still be here because Murray would of niticed he stopped breathing. Now that is plain common sense...screw science. Niether you nor I have a medical degree.....I do NOT try and act like I know everything....because I dont.....neither do you

 

[Petrarose]

yes they will have to go back to the syringe, there was not enough propofol found in the stomach to support the oral theory.

but let's not forget the lorazepam. they found huge amounts of lorazepam in blood samples. mj was asleep or groggy when the lethal propofol bolus was administered. how could he have self-administered propofol in such a state?


here is how i see it:

they finally admit it was a bolus shot as we have suspected all along.

so mj wasnt under the influence of propofol when murray allegedly left the room at 11h (now, that's breaking news!). because from the 25mg propofol mini-bolus murray allegedly gave at 1040h mj would have woken up long since by then... (why even bother to give him that amount, murray??).

but mj at 11h was still heavily sedated, i believe once we have the full tox report with all the missing "-" amounts filled in it will show he was under the influence of lorazepam. liver, urine, it was everywhere.

if (as the defence claims) mj woke up from his lorazepam induced sleep before noon to self-administer a lethal propofol dose, how come the coroner found huge amounts of lorazepam in mj's blood? as i said above, mj must have been asleep or at least groggy when the lethal propofol bolus was administered. how could mj have self-administered propofol in this state?

so i guess it was the NOI then..?

you have to wonder though about the girlfriend statement. who did cough if murray says it wasn't mj? maybe the mystery man who "really" killed mj? which would place murray in an awkward position since his girlfriend overheard him mumbling to the coughing stranger..

and what has happened to the story murray told UCLA doctors that mj still had a pulse when murray "found" him? so supposedly the murderer(?) had just left the scene when murray "haphazardly" entered to find a dying mj? but did not bother to call 911 right away? instead spent time doing cpr with one hand on a bed + collect used propofol bottles (why hide evidence, murray, we thought you are innocent??)


i say: busted.

About this mystery man: If I am taking care of someone, and I see an unknown person doing something to kill the person, I am going to shout for help, call 911, fight with the person, claim at the roof tops what happened to show my innocence, scratch up this person so they have marks. In no way would a normal person keep quiet and hide, if the person knows they did not kill someone and let themselves be dragged into a trial. The covering up that Murray did shows he was involved in the death.

 

[twinklEE]

lets not fight u guys

 

[Autumn II]

The CIRCULATION stops when the HEART stops. Not vice versa. :doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh: And here we have a person talking about SCIENCE and insists what he says is a fact. Okay then.....:doh:

So....if I go swimming and dive and hold my breath for a minute...my heart will stop? :doh:

Better stay out of the pool! :bugeyed

There seems to be some confusion. First of all, time-of-death was never given in testimony (not the 2:26 in the afternoon called at the UCLA Medical Center.) A heart that stops beating is called "cardiac arrest." That is not necessarily DEATH. That is what CPR is for, and what defibrillators are for. After about four minutes, brain damage occurs due to lack of oxygen (carried by circulating blood.) CPR can delay that, if done effectively. Brain death is where the brain has been denied oxygen for so long that brain activity ceases. At that point, the person has "died." A person is NOT pronounced dead after one minute of no heart-beat. (Except in cowboy shows where a person is shot and drops dead immediately, for theatrical effect. It's actually much more complex than that.)

If Murray noted that Michael's heart had stopped beating, he should have called 911 immediately, or yelled for someone else to call. (We now know that he had a phone, or two, which he originally denied.) He should have hauled Michael to the floor and begun CPR. If he had done so, Michael could have been saved.

 

[xthunderx2]

Better stay out of the pool! :bugeyed

There seems to be some confusion. First of all, time-of-death was never given in testimony (not the 2:26 in the afternoon called at the UCLA Medical Center.) A heart that stops beating is called "cardiac arrest." That is not necessarily DEATH. That is what CPR is for, and what defibrillators are for. After about four minutes, brain damage occurs due to lack of oxygen (carried by circulating blood.) CPR can delay that, if done effectively. Brain death is where the brain has been denied oxygen for so long that brain activity ceases. At that point, the person has "died." A person is NOT pronounced dead after one minute of no heart-beat. (Except in cowboy shows where a person is shot and drops dead immediately, for theatrical effect. It's actually much more complex than that.)

If Murray noted that Michael's heart had stopped beating, he should have called 911 immediately, or yelled for someone else to call. (We now know that he had a phone, or two, which he originally denied.) He should have hauled Michael to the floor and begun CPR. If he had done so, Michael could have been saved.

exactly..:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[summer]

Better stay out of the pool! :bugeyed

There seems to be some confusion. First of all, time-of-death was never given in testimony (not the 2:26 in the afternoon called at the UCLA Medical Center.) A heart that stops beating is called "cardiac arrest." That is not necessarily DEATH. That is what CPR is for, and what defibrillators are for. After about four minutes, brain damage occurs due to lack of oxygen (carried by circulating blood.) CPR can delay that, if done effectively. Brain death is where the brain has been denied oxygen for so long that brain activity ceases. At that point, the person has "died." A person is NOT pronounced dead after one minute of no heart-beat. (Except in cowboy shows where a person is shot and drops dead immediately, for theatrical effect. It's actually much more complex than that.)

If Murray noted that Michael's heart had stopped beating, he should have called 911 immediately, or yelled for someone else to call. (We now know that he had a phone, or two, which he originally denied.) He should have hauled Michael to the floor and begun CPR. If he had done so, Michael could have been saved.

:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

Thank you!!

 

[Petrarose]

What is Texas and Nevada waiting for. Do they need a transcript from the court? They certainly can only interview patients who are alive and who have not been getting propofol.

 

[8701girl]

The thing is murray is now cautious when treating paitents. So that way his paitents wont have anything bad to say bout him and maybe why nevada & texas are taking so long.

 

[Soundmind]

The CIRCULATION stops when the HEART stops. Not vice versa. :doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh: And here we have a person talking about SCIENCE and insists what he says is a fact. Okay then.....:doh:

So....if I go swimming and dive and hold my breath for a minute...my heart will stop? :doh:

THAT WHAT I POSTED FIRST:

the heart stopped within one minute due to rapid injection. 4.5 ug/ml( according to the expert it could have been higher ) is consistent with propofol concentrations after ONE minute of an induction dose. Concentration remained at 4.5 ug/ml that means there was no time for propofol to redistribute from brain and blood , the blood circulation stopped, your blood circulation stops when your heart stops.

4.5 ug/ml indicates a very short survival time.

read on propofol concentrations after one minute of injection , you will understand what I'm saying.

It's a medical fact that propofol concentrations starts to drop within one minute due to rapid distribution and the fact they remained that HIGH meant his heart stopped within one minute because circulation stopped.

the fact they remained high meant his heart stopped within one minute ,stop trying to be funny , you are silly

Have you bothered to read the testimony posted on trials and tribulations . They talked about that one minute survival window and the coroner did say the levels found would have been reached within one minute if they did not drop that only means blood circulation stopped and blood circulation stops when the heart stops. That means his heart must have stopped within one minute for these concetration to remain that HIGH.

The CORONER AND THE EXPERT BOTH AGREED and you are here still arguing .

because Murray left Michael's freakin bedside..you keep saying that Murray was right there when Michael died.....that the cough that was heard was from Michael...NOW your saying that he had no breath back and his heart stopped because of a higher concentration...Michael's heart stopped because Murray was not there to use the ambu bag like he should of to put air back in Michael's lungs....THAT is testified too....Michael died because Murray is a damn loser and let him die...he wasn't monitoring him like he was suppoe to be....and I am so damn sick and tired of your damn stories changing.....you are as bad as Murray..go back and read someof your other posts..earlier you were fighting about Murray being near the bed.. If this was the case then Michael would still be here because Murray would of niticed he stopped breathing. Now that is plain common sense...screw science. Niether you nor I have a medical degree.....I do NOT try and act like I know everything....because I dont.....neither do you

screw you , you are unable to comprehend what I posted. Never ever I believed Murray left MJ's bedroom.

Bring me one post ONE POST where I said Murray left MJ .

He was there beside him when he died but he did not have the means to bring him back , he was not prepared to that situation. That's what the expert and the coroner said. The fact that he gave him all these sedatives and had no means to bring him back if anything bad happened was great deviation from standard care.

When Falagan brought up the fact that under these concentrations how Murray could have brought MJ back, the expert said he could have brought his breathing back NOT HIS HEART , HIS HEAR STOPPED WITHIN ONE MINUTE.

go read and comprehend what they are saying before going after people who are posting FACTUAL INFORMATION.


IF mj received the laughable amounts you are claiming he received that day , his urine concentration would not have been 0.10 ug/ml

Did you know that propofol concentration in his STOMACH WAS HIGHER THAN THESE CONCENTRATION IN HIS URINE . 0.13 ug /ml


How come if he was receiving it via a drip ? and especially if he was receiving it for an hour or 40 minutes? :smilerolleyes:

educate yourself before entering into debate about scientifically proven things especially when these things have already being discussed at the hearing .

 

[Petrarose]

Better stay out of the pool! :bugeyed

There seems to be some confusion. First of all, time-of-death was never given in testimony (not the 2:26 in the afternoon called at the UCLA Medical Center.) A heart that stops beating is called "cardiac arrest." That is not necessarily DEATH. That is what CPR is for, and what defibrillators are for. After about four minutes, brain damage occurs due to lack of oxygen (carried by circulating blood.) CPR can delay that, if done effectively. Brain death is where the brain has been denied oxygen for so long that brain activity ceases. At that point, the person has "died." A person is NOT pronounced dead after one minute of no heart-beat. (Except in cowboy shows where a person is shot and drops dead immediately, for theatrical effect. It's actually much more complex than that.)

If Murray noted that Michael's heart had stopped beating, he should have called 911 immediately, or yelled for someone else to call. (We now know that he had a phone, or two, which he originally denied.) He should have hauled Michael to the floor and begun CPR. If he had done so, Michael could have been saved.

You know, I have a feeling that even if Murray found Michael in distress, he still did not know what to do in an emergency. I feel his experience in the clinics did not deal with emergency issues. Notice that all the things he did when he found Michael was wrong or inadequate. To me if he found Michael dying, not breathing, or dead the conclusion would be the same as June 25, because he DID NOT KNOW WHAT TO DO.

 

[summer]

The thing is murray is now cautious when treating paitents. So that way his paitents wont have anything bad to say bout him and maybe why nevada & texas are taking so long.

His patients maybe won't have anything bad to say about him because most likely they don't know better. Which average person would know what is the right treatement for some cardiac problem and what drugs to take and in what dose. And in that case...they won't have bad things to say until they'll need CPR and Murray won't be able to help them because he's a quack. But that's when it will be too late for the patients to say "Oh...you were right"....:mello:

But if it was me and I'd know that my doctor, who is a CARDIOLOGIST and is treating my HEART, doesn't even know how to do CPR....I personally would be SCARED. :mello:

 

[xthunderx2]

THAT WHAT I POSTED FIRST:




the fact they remained high meant his heart stopped within one minute ,stop trying to be funny , you are silly

Have you bothered to read the testimony posted on trials and tribulations . They talked about that one minute survival window and the coroner did say the levels found would have been reached within one minute if they did not drop that only means blood circulation stopped and blood circulation stops when the heart stops. That means his heart must have stopped within one minute for these concetration to remain that HIGH.

The CORONER AND THE EXPERT BOTH AGREED and you are here still arguing .




screw you , you are unable to comprehend what I posted. Never ever I believed Murray left MJ's bedroom.

Bring me one post ONE POST where I said Murray left MJ .

He was there beside him when he died but he did not have the means to bring him back , he was not prepared to that situation. That's what the expert and the coroner said. The fact that he gave him all these sedatives and had no means to bring him back if anything bad happened was great deviation from standard care.

When Falagan brought up the fact that under these concentrations how Murray could have brought MJ back, the expert said he could have brought his breathing back NOT HIS HEART , HIS HEAR STOPPED WITHIN ONE MINUTE.

go read and comprehend what they are saying before going after people who are posting FACTUAL INFORMATION.


IF mj received the laughable amounts you are claiming he received that day , his urine concentration would not have been 0.10 ug/ml

Did you know that propofol concentration in his STOMACH WAS HIGHER THAN THESE CONCENTRATION IN HIS URINE . 0.13 ug /ml


How come if he was receiving it via a drip ? and especially if he was receiving it for an hour or 40 minutes? :smilerolleyes:

educate yourself before entering into debate about scientifically proven things especially when these things have already being discussed at the hearing .

Ok I will say this one more time for you seeing as you are a scientific genius.....All Murray had to do to get Michael's respiration back....was to use the ambu bag in the closet..if Murray would of done that...Michael's heart NEVER WOULD OF STOPPED. Believe me I have seen people die before...it takes longer than one minute for their hearts to stop....first comes lack of oxygen....which leads to brain damage....then after about 4 minutes or so their heart stops. Please stop using google as your science book....it not working for you.

 

[Autumn II]

Cardiac arrest and time-of-death are not exactly the same thing.

He could have stood at the top of the stairs for three seconds, and yelled, "Anyone know CPR?" And, "Call 911!" I don't think he was necessarily at the bedside when Michael died, but if he was, that's even WORSE! CPR training is quite common these days -- even good baby-sitters take a course. Outrageous!

 

[summer]

THAT WHAT I POSTED FIRST:




the fact they remained high meant his heart stopped within one minute ,stop trying to be funny , you are silly


educate yourself before entering into debate about scientifically proven things especially when these things have already being discussed at the hearing .

How about you start with YOURSELF before you start telling others they are "stupid". How about you go and educate YOURSELF about basic anatomy FIRST (and anatomy as we all know is scientifically proven)....and then we can talk.

You said the heart stopped because the circulation stopped, but conveniently went and edited it after I pointed it out. And I was not the only one who quoted you saying it.

Anyways, the point is....you are all over the threads talking like you are an expert and know it all and insist what you say is a fact and you are rude and arrogant and pretty much call others stupid if they disagree with you. You are NOT a medical expert (OBVIOUSLY...:doh, so stop acting like one. Or at least get your FACTS right first! Sheesh! :doh: