Theories : What do you think happened based on testimony

[xMichellex]

I'll tell you what annoys me, when we must only say that Dr.Murray is totally to blame and cannot possibly say anything that might be interpreted as 'bad' about MJ. Yes this is an MJ board but come off it guys, he was a human being who made bad choices and mistakes just like all of us. I am shocked at what I see as the bullying of one member simply for not agreeing with you all. And to attack him for saying Michael was a child in a mans body? Ffs this is not a negative comment, everyone knows MJ was child-like. Like it or not MJ was a troubled human being who could not live a normal life because people, his fans included, would not leave him alone and seeing how his fans expect him to be this perfect being I am hardly surprised he felt this way. Yes the negative press was worse but please guys treat him as a human for once! MJ was not able to live a normal life and because of this he turned to medication to help, and let us face it he was addicted. More focus should be on WHY he felt like this, why he was so unhappy. He is not entirely blameless whether you like it or not. Dr.Murray was likely employed because he was a 'yes man', he gave Michael what he wanted. It is not healthy to portray MJ as something he is not. You say you love him, but when you truly love someone you love them and their bad points you do not just deny their faults exist. Supporting him means supporting his bad times too. "in my violence, in my turbulance.....will you still care, will you be there?" in other words when he messes up like ANY HUMAN BEING will you still support him, not deny his faults. And certainly not attack and bully one person who has done nothing but present their view of things. I guess this opinion won't be liked but I have been shocked and upset. It is like you're all saying we're not fans unless we agree that Dr.Murray killed MJ and that MJ had no part in it. Well I apologise but I love MJ too and that includes his faults, I am more upset he was not allowed a normal life which made him depend on medication but of course that is someone elses fault as well isn't it?

 

[Soundmind]

MJ was not able to live a normal life and because of this he turned to medication to help, and let us face it he was addicted. More focus should be on WHY he felt like this, why he was so unhappy.

Maybe if the coroner told us MJ's body was that of a drug addict, we might have considered what you are saying. Since the coroner said MJ's health was not only good but EXCELLENT for a man his age, I'm entitled to believe he was not an addict and I think I have every right to believe so.

And who really told you he was "so unhappy", how did you know he was "so unhappy"?

being an INSOMNIAC does not equal being "so unhappy". He was not taking propofol to get a fix an feel "happy", he was taking it to SLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP

 

[xMichellex]

No of course he wasn't unhappy, he never stated this in interviews did he? And what do you think caused his insomnia? I did not use the words "drug addict" so don't even try it, but the fact is, like his own family noticed, he was addicted to medication. He relied on it to sleep because he could not sleep naturally.

 

[xMichellex]

ALSO someone in 'excellent health' would not have been described by doctors/paramedics as "unrecognisable" and looking like a "hospice patient" would they? Think about it!

 

[mjsdot]

I think the hospice patient bit is because of the doctor being in a private home, IV setup etc if you read what they said, they would not have been expecting to see MJ plus from the sound of it he was dead. That would not make him look exactly healthy would it.:no:

 

[The Healer]

xMichellex...I have read a lot of posts like yours on another board ( s ).
No one here is saying that Michael was a saint. He was human and he made bad choices like all of us do sometimes. The big difference is...Michael was taking MEDICATIONS..not drugs. I also take pills for my pain..sometimes maybe more than I should when it hurts...does that makes me an addict ?! And I am not Michael Jackson and I don"t have to rehears every day even when I am feeling sick.
Through all that..I can somehow read between the lines that Michael was playing with fire and that he croosed the line. And that his death was partialy his fault.
I will never exept that kind of thinking. According to some..Michael was spoiled as hell and could not take no for an answer.
Well...everyone has the right to an opinion .
Damn it, even if Michael wanted the propofol so bad,( which I certanly don"t believe ) Murray had to stay and watch over Michael.

 

[StacyJ]

Maybe if the coroner told us MJ's body was that of a drug addict, we might have considered what you are saying. Since the coroner said MJ's health was not only good but EXCELLENT for a man his age, I'm entitled to believe he was not an addict and I think I have every right to believe so.

And who really told you he was "so unhappy", how did you know he was "so unhappy"?

being an INSOMNIAC does not equal being "so unhappy". He was not taking propofol to get a fix an feel "happy", he was taking it to SLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP

good post!!

 

[StacyJ]

xMichellex...I have read a lot of posts like yours on another board ( s ).
No one here is saying that Michael was a saint. He was human and he made bad choices like all of us do sometimes. The big difference is...Michael was taking MEDICATIONS..not drugs. I also take pills for my pain..sometimes maybe more than I should when it hurts...does that makes me an addict ?! And I am not Michael Jackson and I don"t have to rehears every day even when I am feeling sick.
Through all that..I can somehow read between the lines that Michael was playing with fire and that he croosed the line. And that his death was partialy his fault.
I will never exept that kind of thinking. According to some..Michael was spoiled as hell and could not take no for an answer.
Well...everyone has the right to an opinion .
Damn it, even if Michael wanted the propofol so bad,( which I certanly don"t believe ) Murray had to stay and watch over Michael.

Exactly! Since Murray was willing to give it, he should've stayed and monitored his patient like he said he would. If he couldn't do that he should've never given it to MJ period. If MJ came to him saying he needed to sleep and wanted propofol, Murray should've said that propofol does not provide sleep. You are knocked out unconscious which is not real sleep and I will not give you that but I will help you find something that will work and that is safe. Murray didn't do that

 

[Soundmind]

ALSO someone in 'excellent health' would not have been described by doctors/paramedics as "unrecognisable" and looking like a "hospice patient" would they? Think about it!

mjsdot explained what ONE paramedic meant by "hospice patient".

the coroner must have been lying, right? do you believe the estate paid him to say mj was healthy?:smilerolleyes: don't be shy, some long time members started an investigation to prove the autopsy report was FAKE and they spent MONTHS trying to find what they called 'contradictions' to prove their UNLOGICAL claims. Are you one of those who believe AEG & Sony paid huge sum of money to the coroner ? if you are one of them , be "slick and wise " use the cliche they use whenever they are faced with testimonies from the coroner and experts , just hide behind the phrase " we don't know yet" we will get you don't trust the coroner's account of what happened.

 

[xMichellex]

I did already state that he was taking medication not 'drugs' (illegal drugs) but guys, it is entirely possible to be addicted to medication as well, I am not saying Michael just sat around shooting up. I am not saying Dr.Murray is entirely innocent either, I believe he SHOULD have monitored Michael and said no to his requests for propofol but at the same time if he had said no do you think he would still have the job as Michael's doctor? What I am saying is if Dr.Murray had repeatedly refused Michael's requests, Michael would have found a new doctor. So whilst Dr.Murray was an idiot and completely negligent Michael was dependant on this stuff and would likely have found someone who would have given it to him. That does not make him a bad guy, it means there were underlying issues that meant he could not live a normal natural life.

 

[xMichellex]

No soundmind I am not one of those people that believes those sorts of things. But thanks for that huge, unfair and judgemental assumption.

 

[classic]

I'll tell you what annoys me, when we must only say that Dr.Murray is totally to blame and cannot possibly say anything that might be interpreted as 'bad' about MJ. Yes this is an MJ board but come off it guys, he was a human being who made bad choices and mistakes just like all of us. I am shocked at what I see as the bullying of one member simply for not agreeing with you all. And to attack him for saying Michael was a child in a mans body? Ffs this is not a negative comment, everyone knows MJ was child-like. Like it or not MJ was a troubled human being who could not live a normal life because people, his fans included, would not leave him alone and seeing how his fans expect him to be this perfect being I am hardly surprised he felt this way. Yes the negative press was worse but please guys treat him as a human for once! MJ was not able to live a normal life and because of this he turned to medication to help, and let us face it he was addicted. More focus should be on WHY he felt like this, why he was so unhappy. He is not entirely blameless whether you like it or not. Dr.Murray was likely employed because he was a 'yes man', he gave Michael what he wanted. It is not healthy to portray MJ as something he is not. You say you love him, but when you truly love someone you love them and their bad points you do not just deny their faults exist. Supporting him means supporting his bad times too. "in my violence, in my turbulance.....will you still care, will you be there?" in other words when he messes up like ANY HUMAN BEING will you still support him, not deny his faults. And certainly not attack and bully one person who has done nothing but present their view of things. I guess this opinion won't be liked but I have been shocked and upset. It is like you're all saying we're not fans unless we agree that Dr.Murray killed MJ and that MJ had no part in it. Well I apologise but I love MJ too and that includes his faults, I am more upset he was not allowed a normal life which made him depend on medication but of course that is someone elses fault as well isn't it?

The problem is that a lot of this is based on perception and not necessarily facts of Michael Jackson in 2009. First of all, once Michael became the victim of what has been ruled a homicide, the actions of the accused is all that should matter when discussing the case based on testimony. If proof that Michael did anything with that medication besides submit to being a patient, then that is one thing. At this point, there has been no forensic/scientific evidence to support such; therefore, Michael could not have played a part in his death based on what we actually know (including taking out the psychoanalysis because we don't factually know what Michael was thinking or what he actually said to Murray concerning any of this).

Second, the factor of leading a normal life or not, would not play into this. Michael went to doctors, raised his children, worked, ate, etc. like others. In 2009, I nor anyone else here that has spoken up about it, can discuss whether or not Michael was troubled; I don't even get what that is based on. Could he have been stressed? Could he have suffered from insomnia? Possibly but neither translates into a troubled life. While we can focus on the stressors or view those as negativities, we can not say that Michael did.

Thirdly, so far in this case, what many may claim as his bad decisions or faults can only be known based on what others are saying. Sadly, we don't know if Michael actually requested propofol or not on that day. He is not here to tell his side. You can not say that he turned to medication in 2008 or 2009 because of not being able to live a normal life versus he needed the medication for medical reasons; and you can not make a statement about him being addicted to anything without having been there by his side and in his mind. Anything short of that is your perception but at this point shouldn't be passed or worded as facts concerning Michael.

Finally, this is not a trial about whether Michael was happy or felt loved or was addicted to anything. So, there is no need to pschoanalyze any of his feelings in terms of feeling loved, supported, etc. None of that matters. This trial is about one thing and one thing only: did Murray contribute to the death of Michael Jackson. If there is any fact that shows this to be true, there is nothing about Michael's actions or emotional state that should or would ever matter in the outcome of this trial. And right now, the trial should be the sole focus.

 

[The Healer]

Sadly...in this world we live in....the victim often becomes a victim again on trial.
No matter how hard I try, I can"t imagine how certain laywers can look at themselves in the mirror.

 

[xMichellex]

Deleted - double post

 

[xMichellex]

Autumn, Ok but how do you know that what you're stating is true? You were not by his side either. This thread is about theories, larry wrote his theory without letting his feelings get in the way of what he believed could be the version of events and was attacked and basically told he was wrong and disrespectful when he hadn't been just because others did not like the fact he did not put Dr.Murray in a negative enough light and said that it was entirely possible MJ played a role in his death. We are all entitled, in a theory thread, to give a theory. It is awful that people gang up and make snide comments about the report button just because they neither agree or like the opinion. You can easily throw around the old "you don't know you were not there" but neither were you so it is not right to use that as a one way thing. It works both ways.

 

[xthunderx2]

Autumn, Ok but how do you know that what you're stating is true? You were not by his side either. This thread is about theories, larry wrote his theory without letting his feelings get in the way of what he believed could be the version of events and was attacked and basically told he was wrong and disrespectful when he hadn't been just because others did not like the fact he did not put Dr.Murray in a negative enough light and said that it was entirely possible MJ played a role in his death. We are all entitled, in a theory thread, to give a theory. It is awful that people gang up and make snide comments about the report button just because they neither agree or like the opinion. You can easily throw around the old "you don't know you were not there" but neither were you so it is not right to use that as a one way thing. It works both ways.

thank God FOR that report button!!

 

[LindaC781]

My following is based on the testimony so far, the autopsy results, a psych analysis as well as other things brought forward over the past year and a half.
NOTE: These series of events are MY view of the sequence of events that lead to Michael Jackson's death.

June 18th: Michael arrives at rehearsal late, and is frail and soft spoken (Actually shown on the TII special features), before going home Michael watches the TII dancers perform "Thriller" and is obviously wowed by it. Kenny then suggests that Michael return home, and he does.

June 19th: Kenny is called to Michael's temporary residence in LA for a meeting, in which he was told not to send Michael home as he was not "responsible" for Michael's health (the reason Conrad did this was because he was afraid he would be looked upon as redundant, it's clear he wanted to be the one to take care of MJ for the sake of taking care of his $$$).

June 21st: Conrad becomes worried that Michael is getting addicted to Propofol, and following rehearsal that night began weaning him off it.

June 23rd: It was obvious at this point that Michael was now in a lot of pain (He came off stage with back pains and headaches as well as feeling dizzy, these are classic signs of Opioid withdrawal) Kenny was concerned that Michael wasn't eating properly and even hand fed him chicken (Michael was a vegetarian...).

June 24th/25th: Final rehearsal, Michael's body was beginning to recover, but as we would soon see he would be in for much more, several songs were rehearsed (the Billie Jean and MITM from TII are the last performances that Michael ever did).

Murray's Timeline:
1:30 AM: Michael takes a 10mg Valium
2:00 AM: Michael still wasn't asleep and Murray gave him 2mg of Ativan via IV
3:00 AM: Michael was STILL awake so Murray gave him 2mg of Versed via IV
5:00 AM: Michael was restless and asked for his "milk" but Murray refused and gave Michael 2mg of Ativan via IV
7:30 AM: Michael was still awake and was pleading for Propofol, but once again Murray refused and gave Michael 2mg of Versed via IV
10:40 AM: Michael still awake was somehow able to convince Murray to give him Propofol, so Murray administered 25mg of Propofol diluted with Lidocaine
10:50 AM: Dr Murray leaves to goto the toilet
10:52 AM: Dr Murray returns to find Michael not breathing, so Murray quickly administers 0.2mg of the overdose reversal drug Annexate, which blocks the brain receptors that Opioids affect, reversing sedation and allowing the brain to resume consciousness, Murray attempted to move Michael off the bed to do CPR, but couldn't do so on his own, and started CPR on Michael's bed, Murray then stopped CPR and ran downstairs to get help, and then returned to continue CPR.
11:18 AM: Dr Murray begins the series of 3 calls lasting 47 minutes, it is unknown whether someone was performing CPR at this point.
12:22 PM: 911 is called and an ambulance responds to the call.
12:26 PM: Paramedics find Michael lying on the floor and said that they didn't recognize the person at all, life saving efforts begin, it is noted that Michael showed no signs of life at this point, no pulse, he was cold to the touch and his pupils were fixed and dilated (which indicated brain death), paramedics perform CPR and inject adrenaline directly into Michaels heart, they also insert a balloon pump and pump pure oxygen directly into Michael's lungs.
12:46 PM: Paramedics would usually after 20 minutes of resuscitation efforts pronounce a patient dead at the scene, but Dr Murray insisted that he be taken to the hospital to have further treatment
12:58 PM: Michael arrives at the ER along with Dr Murray, doctors continue resuscitation efforts for another hour and a half
2:46 PM: Michael is pronounced dead.

My adjusted timeline:
1:30 AM: Michael takes a 10mg Valium
2:00 AM: Michael still wasn't asleep and Murray gave him 2mg of Ativan via IV
3:00 AM: Michael was STILL awake so Murray gave him 2mg of Versed via IV
5:00 AM: Michael was restless and asked for his "milk" but Murray refused and gave Michael 2mg of Ativan via IV
7:30 AM: Michael was still awake and was pleading for Propofol, but once again Murray refused and gave Michael 2mg of Versed via IV

but heres the issue, there is an obvious hole here, as Murray stated to have given Michael 25mg of Propofol diluted with Lidocaine... but approximately 207mg (or more) were found in his system... so i can come to only 2 conclusions here and i will present them side by side.

Conclusion 1;

10:40 AM: Conrad Murray administers 35mg of Propofol (why 35? because he was up all night, he was tired and may not have measured it correctly) this would have only caused slight drowsiness and would not have caused sleep nor respiratory failure, so Dr Murray administers another 75mg, (110mg so far) Michael falls asleep.
10:50 AM: Dr Murray goes to the toilet
10:52 AM: Dr Murray returns to find Michael awake, having not given him a drip to keep him under, so Dr Murray administers 0.2mg of Annexate in order to prevent a possible overdose and administers 70mg of Propofol and puts Michael on a drip giving him 1mg of Propofol every 2 minutes.
11-11:15 AM: Michael is asleep
11:18 AM: Dr Murray leaves the bedside to make a series of calls totaling 47 minutes.
11:20-11:25 AM: with 196mg of Propofol, 50mg of Lidocaine,10mg of Valium, 4mg of Ativan, 4mg of Versed, 0.2mg of Annexate as well as 3 other prescription medications, Michael goes into respiratory failure and stops breathing.
11:20-11:30 AM: Michael Jackson's heart stops beating and is medically speaking, dead.
11:56 AM: Dr Murray finds Michael not breathing and puts his mobile phone in his pocket (while still on the line with his Girlfriend) at this point Michael has around 207mg of Propofol in his system which is at this point overkill, Dr Murray disconnects the IV, and begins CPR on Michael's bed.
12:00 PM: Dr Murray interrupts CPR to get help.
12:05 PM: Dr Murray and Alberto Alvarez arrive in Michael's room and continue CPR efforts.
***timeline from here is known***

Conclusion 2;

10:40 AM: Michael convinces Dr Murray to give him Propofol, so he administers 25mg of Propofol and then puts Michael on a drip of Propofol giving him 1mg of Propofol every minute.
10:50 AM: Michael is still awake, but he is drowsy, Dr Murray suggests meditating to get to sleep, so Michael closes his eyes, Dr Murray gets up and goes to the toilet.
10:51-10:52 AM: Michael squeezes the drip bag to speed up the process, and falls asleep while doing so.
10:52 AM: Murray returns unaware that Michael has more Propofol in his system then what he gave him (120mg+) and continues the drip at its current rate.
11:18 AM: Murray leaves the room and begins the series of phone calls that last 47 minutes Michael now has 146mg+ of Propofol in his system and he is approaching the limit.
11:42 AM: Michael stops breathing with 170mg+ Propofol in his system.
11:42-11:50 AM: Michael Jackson's heart stops beating and is clinically dead.
12:05 PM: Dr Murray finds Michael not breathing and gives him 0.2mg of Annexate to hopefully reverse sedation, thinking that this would reverse everything within a minute he goes downstairs to get help.
***timeline from here is known***

I don't mention Dr Murray being aware of the danger of his actions in both instances, because he most probably wasn't.

I believe either one of these theories - the only thing is, you can't just squeeze a drip bag to make it go faster. And if this were administered via pump, you'd have to reprogram it to go faster.

 

[TheChosenOne]

It was inevitable that this thread would become heated.

Yes, we are entitled in our opinions/theories. All we are asking is that members base those opinions and theories on what was testified to during the prelims. It is really very simple.

So, if you have a theory post it and let us discuss it in an intelligent and rational manner.

The bickering back and forth needs to stop. If you are only coming to this thread to score points of each other, that also needs to stop.

I say that as Senior Staff.

As Nancii, the regular ole MJ fan, I am still thinking through a theory cause Murray's defense (what little that was presented in the prelims) still has me scratching my head. One thing I can say is that I do not believe anything that Murray said in his interview with the police. The man had two days to come up with a narrative. One that would fit in nicely with the media stories swirling around that time.

 

[cinzia]

B]10:52 AM: Dr Murray returns to find Michael not breathing, so Murray quickly administers 0.2mg of the overdose reversal drug Annexate, which blocks the brain receptors that Opioids affect, reversing sedation and allowing the brain to resume consciousness,[/B]

Murray attempted to move Michael off the bed to do CPR, but couldn't do so on his own, and started CPR on Michael's bed, Murray then stopped CPR and ran downstairs to get help, and then returned to continue CPR.

1. Annexate or Flumanezil is an antagonist for benzodiazepines, not opiods. Opiod antagonists are naltrexone and naloxone. Michael was not receiving opiods.
On what is the inability to move Michael off the bed based on?

10:52 AM: Dr Murray returns to find Michael awake, having not given him a drip to keep him under, so Dr Murray administers 0.2mg of Annexate in order to prevent a possible overdose and administers 70mg of Propofol and puts Michael on a drip giving him 1mg of Propofol every 2 minutes.
2. As above. Thus the Flumazenil would have no effect on the Propofol which is neither a benzodiazepine nor an opiod but rather a hypnotic and has no reversal agent. If you speculate that Murray could have reasoned this way, it only shows how...incompetent?...he is.

10:51-10:52 AM: Michael squeezes the drip bag to speed up the process, and falls asleep while doing so.
3. I believe that squeezing a plastic IV bag will not speed up the drips, merely fill up the drip chamber. Opening the regulating clamp, that will speed up the rate. And as has been noted, there were no drugs in the IV bag tested by the coroner. Unless of course it was changed before the EMTs arrived...

11:20-11:25 AM: with 196mg of Propofol, 50mg of Lidocaine,10mg of Valium, 4mg of Ativan, 4mg of Versed, 0.2mg of Annexate as well as 3 other prescription medications,

4. What are the 3 other prescription meds?

 

[Autumn II]

It was inevitable that this thread would become heated.

Yes, we are entitled in our opinions/theories. All we are asking is that members base those opinions and theories on what was testified to during the prelims. It is really very simple.

So, if you have a theory post it and let us discuss it in an intelligent and rational manner.

The bickering back and forth needs to stop. If you are only coming to this thread to score points of each other, that also needs to stop.

I say that as Senior Staff.

As Nancii, the regular ole MJ fan, I am still thinking through a theory cause Murray's defense (what little that was presented in the prelims) still has me scratching my head. One thing I can say is that I do not believe anything that Murray said in his interview with the police. The man had two days to come up with a narrative. One that would fit in nicely with the media stories swirling around that time.

Thanks. I think this thread has the chance to be productive, but only if we stay within the parameters set out in the opening post, i.e. theories based on testimony. We can't really know Michael's state-of-mind, or what he might have said to which person -- and he's not here to tell us what is the truth, and what isn't.

I'm still working on a more detailed theory. I don't believe anything Murray said, either. Right. He had two days to come up with a narrative, and obviously consulted with attorneys first. His first blurts about what happened were not even slightly credible ("I didn't know the address. There were no phones," and so on). So that casts into doubt pretty much anything he says. Plus, he didn't testify in the prelim (given everything, probably a wise choice by his attorneys). We don't know if we will ever get a straight story out of him, and must piece it together based on the testimony of others.

 

[twinklEE]

Maybe if the coroner told us MJ's body was that of a drug addict, we might have considered what you are saying. Since the coroner said MJ's health was not only good but EXCELLENT for a man his age, I'm entitled to believe he was not an addict and I think I have every right to believe so.

And who really told you he was "so unhappy", how did you know he was "so unhappy"?

being an INSOMNIAC does not equal being "so unhappy". He was not taking propofol to get a fix an feel "happy", he was taking it to SLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP

:clapping:

thank God FOR that report button!!

IKR?

 

[xMichellex]

I do not think we can rule out the possibility that Dr.Murray will tell the truth. He has not spoken much yet but there is every chance he will. That said, I hope people do not automatically jump on everything he says that they do not like and state it as all lies. My original point regarding the theories so far was that larry has by far posted the most unbiased and that is because he did not let his feelings creep into it. To me this made his theory look more believable as he was able to present a chronological and objective theory that was not all one sided. When giving a theory it is often better to leave personal feelings out and look at both sides of things even if you do not like both sides. I know this is not easy being that this is an MJ board full of MJ fans who want to believe the very best in him but remember when it comes to things like legal proceedings and for members of the public who are not fans, they would sooner believe and commend either facts or unbiased theories. I myself, as a longtime fan, purely want to know what happened to my idol, but it is very hard to make sense of that if feelings get in the way of things. I would much rather make sense of what happened by being open minded rather than just pick and choose what I would prefer to believe. I am working on my own theory but I might wait to complete it once the trial actually happens like others are doing.

 

[cinzia]

No we can't rule out the possibility Murray will tell the truth, I hope he will but how will we know it is the truth? Based on his actions to date, I'm betting anything he says will be regarded with suspicion and doubt.

 

[Soundmind]

The man had two days to come up with a narrative. One that would fit in nicely with the media stories swirling around that time.

when he gave his interview, no one was aware of propofol. What the media's talking about was Oxman and Chopra's demerol overdose.

Murray's interview was scripted specifically to explain what he knew sooner than later would be discovered by the investigators from his meeting with Adams to the time of purchases he made to the hair toxicology ...etc. The script was made to shift the blame from himself to everyone else. Starting with Adams, Klein, Metzeger and Lee and ending with MJ himself.

If anyone want truly to know what happened, he/she has to re read his interview and see why he was mentioning those names and in light of the purchases he made and the statements of the others he tried to blame , you would find out the truth.

But if one believe Adams, Lee and Metzeger( who visited MJ in his house once in APRIL) are all to be blamed and are all part of a conspiracy and he/she wants to dismiss everything they say because of a "gut feeling" he/she has , he/she will never find the truth.

When we accept the fact that the doses MJ was given that day of lorazepam and propofol would not have killed him if given separately per the expert's testimony making such theories as" he was hooked to an IV drip and left swiming in propofol " a complete BS .then we might find the truth.

when we accept the fact that MJ died because of a 10cc syringe bolus injection and no IV drip was running when he died , then we are on the way to find the truth.

So far, very few read and understand the coroner's report, how are we to discuss theories that are not even supported by the coroner's report ?


Stick to what the coroner and expert said, then we might find a way to find the truth.

 

[Petrarose]

The problem is that a lot of this is based on perception and not necessarily facts of Michael Jackson in 2009. First of all, once Michael became the victim of what has been ruled a homicide, the actions of the accused is all that should matter when discussing the case based on testimony. If proof that Michael did anything with that medication besides submit to being a patient, then that is one thing. At this point, there has been no forensic/scientific evidence to support such; therefore, Michael could not have played a part in his death based on what we actually know (including taking out the psychoanalysis because we don't factually know what Michael was thinking or what he actually said to Murray concerning any of this).

Second, the factor of leading a normal life or not, would not play into this. Michael went to doctors, raised his children, worked, ate, etc. like others. In 2009, I nor anyone else here that has spoken up about it, can discuss whether or not Michael was troubled; I don't even get what that is based on. Could he have been stressed? Could he have suffered from insomnia? Possibly but neither translates into a troubled life. While we can focus on the stressors or view those as negativities, we can not say that Michael did.

Thirdly, so far in this case, what many may claim as his bad decisions or faults can only be known based on what others are saying. Sadly, we don't know if Michael actually requested propofol or not on that day. He is not here to tell his side. You can not say that he turned to medication in 2008 or 2009 because of not being able to live a normal life versus he needed the medication for medical reasons; and you can not make a statement about him being addicted to anything without having been there by his side and in his mind. Anything short of that is your perception but at this point shouldn't be passed or worded as facts concerning Michael.

Finally, this is not a trial about whether Michael was happy or felt loved or was addicted to anything. So, there is no need to pschoanalyze any of his feelings in terms of feeling loved, supported, etc. None of that matters. This trial is about one thing and one thing only: did Murray contribute to the death of Michael Jackson. If there is any fact that shows this to be true, there is nothing about Michael's actions or emotional state that should or would ever matter in the outcome of this trial. And right now, the trial should be the sole focus.

Excellent rebuttal to the theory that Michael killed himself. Thank you.
We can say once more that:
1. Fans who followed Michael did not cause his death on 6/25.
2. Unhappy times due to pressures did not cause his death on 6/25
3.Michael himself administering medications for his medical needs did not cause his death on 6/25
4. Michael had insomnia even when he was living at home
5. The testimony does not back up that Michael killed himself.

I am seeing a lot of arguments that D D wrote in her letter to a fan in this thread as confirmed theories.

 

[Autumn II]

No we can't rule out the possibility Murray will tell the truth, I hope he will but how will we know it is the truth? Based on his actions to date, I'm betting anything he says will be regarded with suspicion and doubt.

Exactly. There is always the possibility he will tell the truth, but the lies have been so numerous and pervasive, that there would be no way to KNOW. Not only did he lie by omission in not telling EMTs and hospital personnel about the propofol, and lie about the "no working phones" and all of that, I would expect he has a pattern of lying throughout, i.e. various girlfriends/baby-mamas? That's the problem with lying. You'd lose all credibility.

Still hoping for more theories based on testimony . . . . .

 

[ginvid]

I do not think we can rule out the possibility that Dr.Murray will tell the truth. He has not spoken much yet but there is every chance he will. That said, I hope people do not automatically jump on everything he says that they do not like and state it as all lies. My original point regarding the theories so far was that larry has by far posted the most unbiased and that is because he did not let his feelings creep into it. To me this made his theory look more believable as he was able to present a chronological and objective theory that was not all one sided. When giving a theory it is often better to leave personal feelings out and look at both sides of things even if you do not like both sides. I know this is not easy being that this is an MJ board full of MJ fans who want to believe the very best in him but remember when it comes to things like legal proceedings and for members of the public who are not fans, they would sooner believe and commend either facts or unbiased theories. I myself, as a longtime fan, purely want to know what happened to my idol, but it is very hard to make sense of that if feelings get in the way of things. I would much rather make sense of what happened by being open minded rather than just pick and choose what I would prefer to believe. I am working on my own theory but I might wait to complete it once the trial actually happens like others are doing.

The theory set out by Larry is so full of tabloid and unconfirmed stories, it is not even funny. And, a lot of what he said was based on his personal opinion and not fact. So much for your "he was not letting his feelings get in the way theory". And so much for his "objective theory". Saying how MJ felt and how MJ looked in his opinion invalidates this statement, no matter how much he tries to pass it off as being fact.

How you see things is your choice. But please do not assume that just because a person wants to focus on what Murray did in a trial against Murray, that we are all blinded by our perceptions of MJ. There are some here who are able to follow a logical thought pattern devoid of sentimentality.

If you think what Larry set forth was most probable, then that is fine. But please don't belittle everyone else as being caught up and then wonder why they get upset at what is a dig at them.

It would be best if everyone can please stick to the testimony as their backdrop for their summary of events.

Thank you.

 

[classic]

I will tell you what nags me. It is Ortega's testimony about the 19th and the meeting the next day. I just don't get why Murray would be so upset about Michael coming home. Now, we don't have all the ends and outs about the conversation, such as what Phillips or Dileo said as well as Michael. But, this is just nagging me.

Ortega did state that that was the first time he had ever seen Michael look like that. So, it makes me wonder if his look had anything to do with propofol or something else if we are to believe that Murray had been giving Michael propofol for over a month. What would have made that day so dramatic? But again what would be the big freaking deal that Ortega was in agreement that Michael went home and why wouldn't Michael say to Murray that he wasn't feeling well so he came home and get over it. It makes me wonder if Ortega could have questioned Michael about Murray and maybe Michael related this back to Murray or something. Also, Ortega states that when he says that Michael missed several rehearsals, he is talking about a period of a week in early June.

Also, all the stuff that Murray said that he gave to Michael along with the propofol . . . why would he have done that if he was going to use propofol in the first place. The propofol was going to sedate so what was the purpose of using anything else?

 

[ivy]

I will tell you what nags me. It is Ortega's testimony about the 19th and the meeting the next day. I just don't get why Murray would be so upset about Michael coming home. Now, we don't have all the ends and outs about the conversation, such as what Phillips or Dileo said as well as Michael. But, this is just nagging me.

Going with every legal (prelim testimony, KJ lawsuit, AEG response) and personal statements - a scenario

AEG didn't know what Murray was giving to MJ and thought he was there to ensue MJ's health for the concerts (AEG response) but at the same time they were worried that MJ was missing rehearsals (Kenny's testimony) and did warn/threaten MJ about the future of the concerts (KJ's lawsuit). So MJ being sick would mean Murray not taking good care of MJ. Adding that the AEG - Murray contract not being signed yet and the offer of getting a doctor at London (Frank Dileo interview), Murray might have felt that his job wasn't secure - hence "he's fine, he can rehearse, don't send him home" speech.

 

[Autumn II]

Going with every legal (prelim testimony, KJ lawsuit, AEG response) and personal statements - a scenario

This is a plausible scenario.

AEG didn't know what Murray was giving to MJ and thought he was there to ensue MJ's health for the concerts (AEG response)

This is possible, and would be expected in the AEG response. Yet, there are some things that are troubling. In particular, was the email (that we've seen here on MJJC) from Murray to someone named "Tim" at AEG. In that email, he's requesting additional medical staff (a nurse?), and something that sounded a lot like a "cardiac bypass machine." NOT a defibrillator, which might be something a doctor would want backstage at the concerts, but something extremely unusual and unheard of outside of a hospital. Problem is, we don't know who "Tim" is, or where else that email went. If it went to CEOs (was "Tim" a CEO? Don't know.) then that should have raised red flags immediately as to WHAT THE HELL WAS MURRAY DOING??????? And if that email was lost in the shuffle, then maybe AEG really didn't know?

but at the same time they were worried that MJ was missing rehearsals (Kenny's testimony) and did warn/threaten MJ about the future of the concerts (KJ's lawsuit).

Kenny's testimony indicated that the discussion was quite heated. Murray was panicking? But, here's what's uncertain. K.J.'s lawsuit is against AEG. There is controversy about exactly who hired Murray? AEG? Michael? Both, somehow? If Michael, then as a personal physician, Murray's responsibility was to protect Michael's health. The condition Kenny observed sounded quite bad, and a doctor concerned about Michael's health would have concurred about sending him home. But, instead, he was angry with Kenny! (And Michael?) If Murray was hired by AEG (expected to be paid by them), then he must have felt his responsibility was to make sure Michael rehearsed and performed. Regardless of his actual health? This material will probably not come out at the trial, but is in the content of Katherine's lawsuit. Whatever the case, it seemed that NOBODY cared about Michael's health, and all were concerned with losses if the concerts didn't happen, or happen on schedule.

But clearly, if Michael did not perform in London, there would be no need for Murray, and he must have been desperate. And angry. . .

So MJ being sick would mean Murray not taking good care of MJ.

Right. Plus, Murray was in a very precarious financial situation, as we know. A lot of money was at stake for him.

Adding that the AEG - Murray contract not being signed yet and the offer of getting a doctor at London (Frank Dileo interview), Murray might have felt that his job wasn't secure - hence "he's fine, he can rehearse, don't send him home" speech.

Right. And this shows great disregard for Michael's well-being. On the night of June 25, Murray may have already been told he was not going to London? Or, Michael fired him? Or AEG did? We don't really know what transpired in the house that night, and Murray's not talkin'. Not really. I mean, how could anyone possibly believe him, given so many lies?

I really don't understand how someone who actually made it through medical school could make such consistently bad decisions, in his life, and treatment of Michael? It defies any rationality for Murray to think that he could give Michael a nightly general anesthetic, and yet somehow expect him to be able to perform a concert series! To say nothing of the sedatives he was likely giving him, and their side-effects. That was a situation that was circling the drain, already.

I can't help but not discount the possibility that Murray SNAPPED that night, and did something fatal in the heat-of-the-moment? And then calmed down, realized what he'd done, and spent quite a bit of time trying to cover his tracks. I do think that is one possible scenario.

Or, Murray knew Michael was desperate for sleep -- and that if he didn't get any sleep, he might cancel a rehearsal? Or even the shows? Fearful for his employment, Murray pushed a massive dose of propofol. And then was too much of an idiot to call 911, or even get the ambu bag out of the closet?

I think in the end, what we see here is that NOBODY really cared about Michael. With the possible exception of Kenny Ortega, who had the decency to see that Michael was in physical trouble, and send him home.