MJ Estate versus Melissa Johnson and HTWF /Update: Settlement Enforced - HTWF lost the Appeal

Re: Confirmed: Estate takes back HTWF and its trademarks / MJ Estate versus Melissa Johnson and HTWF

Yeah, figuring out the logic here. Makes sense.
Right on about HM. Let's hope they nail him down.
 
Re: Confirmed: Estate takes back HTWF and its trademarks / MJ Estate versus Melissa Johnson and HTWF

And this is not wrong and this is not bad!
I think, Branca is one of the completely few which were really a FRIEND for Michael and are still!
And I think, Branca will do everything to honour Michael and to receive Michael's respect.
And he will do it on clean and legally manner!

Melissa Johnson..... Branca will assign her place to her already one.

(In any case, I hope to see soon no more underpants with "Heal The World" print any more.)


Let us celebrate the success!

For the action against Howard Mann he is veeeery important
i agree. so far i Branca has proven to care about Michael. i just hope we won't be disappointed. one way or another johnson and mann got to be cut from ALL ties from Michael Jackson.
 
Re: Confirmed: Estate takes back HTWF and its trademarks / MJ Estate versus Melissa Johnson and HTWF

Larry nimmer should know better.
 
Re: Confirmed: Estate takes back HTWF and its trademarks / MJ Estate versus Melissa Johnson and HTWF

Exactly.

At some point, if people don't trust the Estate to do right by Michael with HTW, if indeed being re-activated, then there would be no need to trust the Estate in regards to any other charity done in Michael's name. Personally, I hope that Johnson's name isn't connected at all with it; and to be honest, I would feel better without Mrs. Jackson being connected, at this moment with everything that has been done and said. However, I do believe that the Estate will take Michael's charities seriously and protect their integrity. There may have been issues into play that we don't even know about. At least people should wait for specific details. I think that they are doing great letting people know who is going to be in charge of this Estate, Michael's image, and full execution of his will. Of course, I'm sure there will be more instances of having to remind people, such as with the upcoming case against Mann.

I have no problem with the estate taking over, but it's those people I don't trust & don't want on board: Joe, Katherine, Randy & Melissa Johnson.

The estate,taking over is fine by me...but they need to Clean house STAT
 
Re: Confirmed: Estate takes back HTWF and its trademarks / MJ Estate versus Melissa Johnson and HTWF

This is a step in the right direction and I'm very happy with it. I'm just gonna wait for the overall picture to be made clear.
 
Re: Confirmed: Estate takes back HTWF and its trademarks / MJ Estate versus Melissa Johnson and HTWF

This video is from Mann`s Jackson-Secret Vault page. Larry Nimmer and Taaj Mallic try to make the settlement in a victory for Johnson and Mann.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xaiknGcuXw&feature=player_embedded#at=185

Larry nimmer should know better.


Actually everyone should know better.

Settlements are agreements done between the parties. It's recommended to reduce costs and time spent and stress that comes with the trial. It also allows you to make sure of the outcome as jurors and judge could come with a verdict in many different ways.

The important thing is that settlements do not mean admission of any wrongdoing or guilt. This must be obvious to any real MJ fan as they knew the 1993 settlement and knew that it didn't mean or show any wrongdoing on Michael's part.

As an unfortunate statement from Taaj Malik I read that "settlement shows that HTWF wasn't fake and it's now proven and accepted by the Estate" which is as wrong as it gets. If you apply the same logic the 1993 settlement would have to show that there was a wrongdoing and that it was proven and accepted by Michael.

So please do not listen to obviously totally clueless people about the law / settlement and what it means but use your own knowledge of settlements from Michael's history to see that it's an agreement done out of the court that doesn't show any admission of wrongdoing and guilt.
 
Re: Confirmed: Estate takes back HTWF and its trademarks / MJ Estate versus Melissa Johnson and HTWF

Maybe Branca should examine whether it is possible to let live the closed Registration on MICHAELS HTW again!

Then Johnson HTWF- registration could be closed finally.


Then would also become T. Malik & Co understand.
 
Re: Confirmed: Estate takes back HTWF and its trademarks / MJ Estate versus Melissa Johnson and HTWF

I can't stomach watch any videos with that Maalik woman but I'm curious, in what manner could this possibly be construed as a victory for Mann?
Ms. Maalik is just trying to save face, in my opinion.

The ONLY thing Howard Mann was interested in was having ACCESS to those registered trademarks, which now belong to the Estate. In my opinion, that's the ONLY reason he got involved with Melissa Johnson in the first place. He wasn't trying to SAVE her fake charity, he just wanted to get his grubby little hands on those trademarks.

The way I see it, they can TRY and spin this outcome until their collective head's hurt. LOL! Bottomline is those registered trademarks will never be used by Howard Mann and he must be PISSED right about now.
 
Re: Confirmed: Estate takes back HTWF and its trademarks / MJ Estate versus Melissa Johnson and HTWF

if you watch the video you'll see that they say there was " in chambers sealed meeting" so they know nothing but make their own comments- like I said above very flawed comments.
 
Re: Confirmed: Estate takes back HTWF and its trademarks / MJ Estate versus Melissa Johnson and HTWF

I have no problem with the estate taking over, but it's those people I don't trust & don't want on board: Joe, Katherine, Randy & Melissa Johnson.

The estate,taking over is fine by me...but they need to Clean house STAT
I second this
 
Re: Confirmed: Estate takes back HTWF and its trademarks / MJ Estate versus Melissa Johnson and HTWF

I can't believe the faith people have in the Estate and Branca. Of course Mann and Melissa and most likely Katherine are out for the money, but ..the Estate are not honorable either..now are they going to funnel the 20% for charity into their own HTW??? Talk about conflict of interest.
 
ivy;3350089 said:
Let's post all tweets from Joe Vogel

Michael Jackson's Estate has taken back all rights to the Heal the World Foundation

It will be re-activated and directed by John Branca, John McClain and Katherine Jackson

To clarify, I am not in any way speaking FOR the Estate. I am a journalist asking questions and reporting what I learn.

Apparently, any kind of Board would be under the direction of the Estate and hasn't yet been formed

I am told Howard Mann will no longer have any role in the HTWF.

Details still being worked out with Melissa Johnson, but she no longer has any rights to Michael's name or the charity

HTWF will now have a much broader reach and impact. It will be one of several charities that benefits from Michael's Estate

Estate wants to get the Foundation "jump started" again so it can do what MJ intended it to

Okay then, so the information coming from the Estate, thus far, is still good news. Nothing to drive me to drink at this point, altho I know the "Melissa" thing is a sticking point for many. I was going to comment on that but just not in the mood to go there at the moment. And until final dismissal and notice of settlement docs are filed (no details of a confidential settlement will be revealed in these docs so don't hold your breath waiting for more info to be shown in them), Imma keep mum on the "Melissa" issue. Some of you prolly don't wanna hear it anyway so... :better:

LindavG;3350152 said:
That's what I think too.

I just hope HTW will help a lot of people in need in the future, esp. children. Maybe they could even organize an annual Children's Day, as Michael wished, at Neverland Ranch where ill or disadvantaged children can just have a great time and forget about their worries for a day :)

That would definitely be nice. :)


CherubimII;3350192 said:
I agree with your summary. :yes:
I, also, believe now the Heal the World Foundation
will become a charity worthy of Michael Jackson, and one his children and grandchildren can continue into the future.

I, also, hope one day the Heal the World Foundation will be combined in some manner with Neverland for the benefit of children all over the world. :cheeky:

Agree. I think your post was in response to marebare whose quote I forgot to snag for my reply. Agree with her and you.

ivy;3350199 said:
Actually let's do a brain storming, starting by remembering the claims in the actual case and see what happened.




win for estate , they got all the trademarks back



win for estate, they got the trademarks and Melissa Johnson, her companies and Mann cannot use them anymore



win for estate , see above explanation



win for estate, as they took over HTWF and any use of Michael's name image and likeliness will be under their control



win for estate, as they got all the trademarks



win for estate, as they got all the trademarks



domain names aren't reported so we don't know this one



win for estate, as they control the trademarks and Michael's image, name, likeliness




win for estate, as they take over HTWF they can correct any wrong information themselves



Why settle ?

Go again and read the counts did MJ Estate tried to close down the charity? No they didn't. They just tried to get the "Heal the World" name back.

Here we have to remember the preliminary injunction decision of the judge, let's do direct quotes first

"With respect to healtheworld.us, and healtheworldfoundation.net, Plaintiff Triumph is not likely to prove the bad faith element. As Plaintiff concedes, at the time Defendant HTWF registered these sites, Plaintiff’s registration in the “Heal the World” marks had expired due to the popularity of the song. Thus, Defendant HTWF may reasonably have believed that its use of the phrase was fair use. Moreover, Defendant HTWF actually succeeded in registering this mark, which, as Plaintiff elsewhere argues, establishes prima facie evidence of Defendant’s intellectual property rights in that mark. Plaintiff argues that “it is the nature of Defendants’ use of the marks that is problematic"

and

"Notwithstanding the foregoing, Defendants are not enjoined from using the mark HEAL THE WORLD"

In a simplified fashion during the preliminary injunction the judge agreed with everything the Estate asked for except "Heal the World" as it became fair use due to trademark expiring due to popularity of the song.

If at the end of the trial the judge decided same way and let Melissa Johnson to keep the Heal the World name we would have her continuing the charity (without mentioning Michael and selling Michael branded products) in the future (probably with Katherine and MJ's kids). Wouldn't you say the confusion would remain among the general public?

So as you can see the advantage of a settlement for the Estate is making sure that they get "Heal The World" name for sure and control of charity (something they didn't ask for at all). So it's a extra plus for them.

Why would Melissa Johnson settle?

It's just assumptions here (as we don't know the confidential details) but most probably as the Estate is getting the trademarks (and perhaps even the domain names as well) they will most probably reimburse her for the costs of such registrations.

Estate agreeing to keep Heal the World alive could be a motivation as well.

and if she's allowed to be a part of the new charity that's also a plus for her.

So as you can see Estate probably got more than they wanted as they were able to get not only the Trademarks but the future control of HTWF and Johnson is probably better off by possibly getting reimbursed for her expenses and still being a part of the charity.

Excellent summary, Ivy! Trademarks were the most important thing here. The Estate has full control of that AND the charity now. It's a win and a wrap for them.

Maria MJ;3350604 said:
I think they stick to the pattern 'nothing MJ outside the estate' and they establish the precedent more strongly. On the other hand, they had to get J agree to it so they made it look like a mutually beneficial settlement? Could be. IMO she will get her money and be rendered inactive in some other way--maybe exchange her 'position' for something else non-estate related?
Embed the opponent into the scheme, make him useless and get rid of him. That's what it looks like.
I didn't care about Johnson as much as I did for Mann. Glad he will be kicked out of the picture. NO settlements there, hopefully.

Edit to add: Thanks Ivy for dissecting the documents for us and thanks to all for their insight. Clearly there was a gap of communication and understanding which is now bridged.

Good insight. This would be a smooth strategy for the Estate. Working for a non-profit and dealing with Board members, I know just having a seat doesn't mean you get to have your way 100% of the time. When it comes time to vote on decisions, it can be easy for someone to get shut out when majority rules. So just "being" on a board or committee doesn't necessarily bring the desired power with it.

At this point it seems the main people are McClain, Branca and Katherine so perhaps Melissa's role will be on another level versus equal as the other 3.

Example: The org. I work with has a top level board of directors (Pres., Vice-Pres, etc.) then comes a lower level board of directors, and then there's a third board on a level lower than that. Right now, the Estate may be trying to decide on what level Melissa will fit, IF she's to be included in any way. And yes, she could then be rendered useless and outvoted by other members when her ideas are too "grandiose" and undoable.

As for how this could benefit Mann, well, IF he didn't get anything in this deal, he may be planning to get it via Melissa (kickbacks) if she obtains a salaried position. Same as the Jackson fam most likely will be getting kickbacks or $$ funneled to them via Katherine's salary.

Remember, Katherine's lawyer explicity stated that he wanted to work with the Estate so that Katherine's "people" can "fairly" get access to more money...or something to that effect. Don't think for a sec. that this whole "charity" thing is soley about giving. More than likely it's been worked out so ppl will be GETTING. What Mrs. J does with her salary would be her biz (and possibly the Koreans). I know some fans realize this and don't like it but if it cuts down on fackery it may be a necessary evil, IMHO. For this reason it could be seen as a win for the defendants. They will FINALLY be get access to $$ somehow...some way...someday. At least now some of them will be working WITH the Estate instead of against it. This should cut down on some of the yapping and nipping at the heels of the Estate over...let's see...EVERYTHING???...at least until these folks get outvoted on ideas and whatnot. Then it'll be back to "the Estate is Evil and won't let us do what we wanna do in the way we wanna do it." Whine whine. *starts the clock on that*

For now, it's a win and very VERY quiet. *sigh*

Maybe Randy will indulge everyone with a Twitter rant soon for show. :)
 
Re: Confirmed: Estate takes back HTWF and its trademarks / MJ Estate versus Melissa Johnson and HTWF

Good insight. This would be a smooth strategy for the Estate. Working for a non-profit and dealing with Board members, I know just having a seat doesn't mean you get to have your way 100% of the time. When it comes time to vote on decisions, it can be easy for someone to get shut out when majority rules. So just "being" on a board or committee doesn't necessarily bring the desired power with it.

At this point it seems the main people are McClain, Branca and Katherine so perhaps Melissa's role will be on another level versus equal as the other 3.

Example: The org. I work with has a top level board of directors (Pres., Vice-Pres, etc.) then comes a lower level board of directors, and then there's a third board on a level lower than that. Right now, the Estate may be trying to decide on what level Melissa will fit, IF she's to be included in any way. And yes, she could then be rendered useless and outvoted by other members when her ideas are too "grandiose" and undoable.

As for how this could benefit Mann, well, IF he didn't get anything in this deal, he may be planning to get it via Melissa (kickbacks) if she obtains a salaried position. Same as the Jackson fam most likely will be getting kickbacks or $$ funneled to them via Katherine's salary.

Remember, Katherine's lawyer explicity stated that he wanted to work with the Estate so that Katherine's "people" can "fairly" get access to more money...or something to that effect. Don't think for a sec. that this whole "charity" thing is soley about giving. More than likely it's been worked out so ppl will be GETTING. What Mrs. J does with her salary would be her biz (and possibly the Koreans). I know some fans realize this and don't like it but if it cuts down on fackery it may be a necessary evil, IMHO. For this reason it could be seen as a win for the defendants. They will FINALLY be get access to $$ somehow...some way...someday. At least now some of them will be working WITH the Estate instead of against it. This should cut down on some of the yapping and nipping at the heels of the Estate :)

Your analysis is Excellent!!:yes:
 
Re: Confirmed: Estate takes back HTWF and its trademarks / MJ Estate versus Melissa Johnson and HTWF

I can't believe the faith people have in the Estate and Branca. Of course Mann and Melissa and most likely Katherine are out for the money, but ..the Estate are not honorable either..now are they going to funnel the 20% for charity into their own HTW??? Talk about conflict of interest.

The Estate is not Branca's. Branca, and Mc Clain are supposed to take care of Michael's assets for his underage kids. Period. Of course, they're here for the money, that's their JOB. If those people screw up, then the 3 children will be broke.
 
Re: Confirmed: Estate takes back HTWF and its trademarks / MJ Estate versus Melissa Johnson and HTWF

This video is from Mann`s Jackson-Secret Vault page. Larry Nimmer and Taaj Mallic try to make the settlement in a victory for Johnson and Mann.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xaiknGcuXw&feature=player_embedded#at=185

There's totally no logic in this video. I totally have no idea how can they make this conclusion.
How come the settlement equal to this HTWF was always MJ's fundation?
I also don't understand why this is the victory for Howard Mann.
How they twister the fact is unbelivable.
Of course, I am still skeptical about what's Johnson's role afterward.
However, there's no way it's the win for Howard Mann.
All those people made me sick.
 
Re: Confirmed: Estate takes back HTWF and its trademarks / MJ Estate versus Melissa Johnson and HTWF

I can't believe the faith people have in the Estate and Branca. Of course Mann and Melissa and most likely Katherine are out for the money, but ..the Estate are not honorable either..now are they going to funnel the 20% for charity into their own HTW??? Talk about conflict of interest.
I have faith in MICHAEL JACKSON. It's Michael's Estate and it was Michael who chose John Branca AND JOHN MCCLAIN to handle his Estate. (Why do folks ALWAYS forget to include John McClain, when complaining about the Estate. LOL!)

I also believe that the Estate of Michael Jackson have done a GREAT job, thus far. Not just looking at all of the deals they have made so far. I'm also talking about all of the OTHER stuff they have had to deal with, which includes having to deal with certain family members and outside entities that want to do things without permission. In my opinion, their job is 24/7 and they have to have eyes in the back of their heads in order to keep up with any wrongdoing that may be happening anywhere in the world.

And it's not their own HTW, it's Michael Jackson's HTW.
 
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Re: Confirmed: Estate takes back HTWF and its trademarks / MJ Estate versus Melissa Johnson and HTWF

How mann and co can claim victory is beyond me. They claim the settlement is a victory.how do u work that out when the estate got everything they wanted.johnson agreed to that so if u wanna look at it this way its an exceptance on their part that they had no right to mjs name.now mann has nothing.wonder how long before he sues johnson for doing a deal with the estate. Where was crazy ass taj before june 25 where was she in 03-05? I guess she wasnt getting favours from randy then.
 
Re: Confirmed: Estate takes back HTWF and its trademarks / MJ Estate versus Melissa Johnson and HTWF

How mann and co can claim victory is beyond me. They claim the settlement is a victory.how do u work that out when the estate got everything they wanted.johnson agreed to that so if u wanna look at it this way its an exceptance on their part that they had no right to mjs name.now mann has nothing.wonder how long before he sues johnson for doing a deal with the estate. Where was crazy ass taj before june 25 where was she in 03-05? I guess she wasnt getting favours from randy then.
Her and Nimmer started running their months BEFORE they really know what went down. LOL!

They should have waited a little longer and then they would have known that basically EVERYTHING reverted back to the Estate of Michael Jackson.

I don't know how Larry Nimer got roped into all of this, but in my opinion, he needs to reassess his position, because his credibility will be shot if he continues to support that bunch of folks. Real talk!
 
Re: Confirmed: Estate takes back HTWF and its trademarks / MJ Estate versus Melissa Johnson and HTWF

I can't believe the faith people have in the Estate and Branca. Of course Mann and Melissa and most likely Katherine are out for the money, but ..the Estate are not honorable either..now are they going to funnel the 20% for charity into their own HTW??? Talk about conflict of interest.

The faith in Branca and company isn't blinding. We know everyone is basically looking out for their own interests. But when it comes to who will ALSO best serve the interest of MJ's children, the executors not only were the ones MJ designated, they have the background, connections, and Branca who specifically helped MJ acquire his most valuable and sustaining asset.

When the alternative is Joe, Katherine, Randy, Jermaine,...yeah, the executors come out ahead. They certainly come out ahead of Bank of America, who really wouldn't give a hoot.
 
Re: Confirmed: Estate takes back HTWF and its trademarks / MJ Estate versus Melissa Johnson and HTWF

How mann and co can claim victory is beyond me. They claim the settlement is a victory.how do u work that out when the estate got everything they wanted.johnson agreed to that so if u wanna look at it this way its an exceptance on their part that they had no right to mjs name.now mann has nothing.wonder how long before he sues johnson for doing a deal with the estate. Where was crazy ass taj before june 25 where was she in 03-05? I guess she wasnt getting favours from randy then.

Speculation: This could be a win for Mann if the Estate bought Katherine out of that shady contract. If she sits on the HTW board and receives a salary then she no longer needs to associate herself and her grandchildren with Mann for "need". Knowing how some fans have boycotted and plan to never support anything they put out, perhaps Mann cut his losses by taking a buyout from the Estate. That's the only BIG win I can see for him here. Otherwise, he might be expecting $$$ trickle down via Melissa.

Time will tell whether Katherine and Mann are still working together. If we stop seeing her and the grandchildren hawking outside projects (meaning not supported/endorsed by the Estate), odds are Mann has been bought out.
 
Re: Confirmed: Estate takes back HTWF and its trademarks / MJ Estate versus Melissa Johnson and HTWF

How mann and co can claim victory is beyond me. They claim the settlement is a victory.how do u work that out when the estate got everything they wanted.johnson agreed to that so if u wanna look at it this way its an exceptance on their part that they had no right to mjs name.now mann has nothing.wonder how long before he sues johnson for doing a deal with the estate.
Don't know how either...

Where was crazy ass taj before june 25 where was she in 03-05? I guess she wasnt getting favours from randy then.
she thought mj was guilty back than...and i'm not kidding you about it.

I don't know how Larry Nimer got roped into all of this, but in my opinion, he needs to reassess his position, because his credibility will be shot if he continues to support that bunch of folks. Real talk!
I don't wanna sound nasty but Larry Nimmer wants that the estate puts his docu out. The estate so far has said no. I don't know why they told him no but i do know that Nimmer is still pretty angry at the estate for that. This is something he told some fans (including me) himself. So if i take that in concideration my best guess is that he went to Mann and Co and he is working with them because the deal involves releasing the docu for the general public.
 
Re: Confirmed: Estate takes back HTWF and its trademarks / MJ Estate versus Melissa Johnson and HTWF

I don't like or trust Mann or Johnson but maybe the MJ Estate feels it's smarter to keep their friends close and their enemies even closer. The Estate is too savvy to allow these leeches to hurt MJ's legacy.
 
Re: Confirmed: Estate takes back HTWF and its trademarks / MJ Estate versus Melissa Johnson and HTWF

Larry Nimmer mad at the estate for not helping his doc go public? Strange if u believe Aphrodite Jones when she said he never got permission in the first place to make a doc out of it anyways and sell it! She consider it stealing on his part?!

And that Tajj Malik thinking MJ was Guilty in 05 really pisses me off! She just came out of no where this lady after June 25th but, no where to be found during the allegations! So if this is true, I see why?! Some people need to get it through their heads that MJ death isn't a business to make money! His family included! SMH


This is what Jermaine has been saying on his Twitter! Guess peeps are asking him questions! No response from Randy yet! lol


jermjackson5 Jermaine Jackson



Michael's legacy is as humanitarian as it is musical. Mother is happy that has the chance to continue the spirit of his true heart

1 minute ago http://twitter.com/#http://twitter.com/#http://twitter.com/#

Twitter_Profile_Pic_normal.JPG

jermjackson5 Jermaine Jackson @



@TeamJackieJaxn5 HTWF = Heal The World Foundation that we hope will now reactivate the truest principals of Michael's HTW philosophy

12 minutes ago http://twitter.com/#http://twitter.com/#http://twitter.com/#http://twitter.com/#








jermjackson5 Jermaine Jackson



Also be assured that I meant to write 'HTWF' ; )

11 minutes ago

Twitter_Profile_Pic_normal.JPG

jermjackson5 Jermaine Jackson



Be assured, Mother is at the helm of a re-formed HWTF that can become worthy of its founding intentions. Let's look forwards, not backwards

42 minutes ago



Twitter_Profile_Pic_normal.JPG

jermjackson5 Jermaine Jackson



Michael's ultimate wish was to re-assert control if ever control was lost in any situation. Control is now re-established re HTWF...

43 minutes ago



Twitter_Profile_Pic_normal.JPG

jermjackson5 Jermaine Jackson



Mother is also guided by private discussions with Michael. Trust me, a mother knows her son...better than anyone (inc executors)

44 minutes ago



Twitter_Profile_Pic_normal.JPG

jermjackson5 Jermaine Jackson



I've long understood that fans are fiercely & rightly protective of the good work Michael did -- as we all are...

47 minutes ago



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jermjackson5 Jermaine Jackson



The realities & legalities of a complex situation re certain manouevrings on HTWF were never as cut & dry as some wished them to be...

47 minutes ago
 
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Re: Confirmed: Estate takes back HTWF and its trademarks / MJ Estate versus Melissa Johnson and HTWF

How Howard Mann and his cronies claimed victory I can't even fathom. The trademarks are all back in the Estate's name-they can't use them. The suit wasn't even to close the charity-it was to get back the trademarks which they did. I just hope that Michael can't see all this :(
 
Re: Confirmed: Estate takes back HTWF and its trademarks / MJ Estate versus Melissa Johnson and HTWF

If they claim their " victory " is because they will have money.

The Estate could trash them in 2 seconds in a trial, so if they didn't do it, say thanks to Katherine and her morons of children.

Vultures don't work for free.
 
Re: Confirmed: Estate takes back HTWF and its trademarks / MJ Estate versus Melissa Johnson and HTWF

that Larry Nimmer is backing them up is disturbing. he'll loose his credibility
 
Re: Confirmed: Estate takes back HTWF and its trademarks / MJ Estate versus Melissa Johnson and HTWF

that Larry Nimmer is backing them up is disturbing. he'll loose his credibility

NOBODY got credibility in this fake shit business.

 
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