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Murray Trial - 29 September - Day 3 - Discussion

smoothlugar;3497174 said:
Exhibit 27 was drawn by Álvarez in April /May this year, after the preliminary and does not coincide with the first draw done on 31st August 2009. (The picture of the IV bag)
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I think Alberto draw and IV stand with an IV bag with a bottle in it and had tubing coming out of it. You say that tubing part doesn't match?
 
Well Alvarez did not touch any of the vials and they don't have his finger prints on them nor anyone else but Murray , if no one put the vials in the bag then who did ? how come Murray told the investigators exactly where to find the bag? They r morons , it's not only Alvarez , the paramedics saw Murray collecting vials and hiding them also .
 
JMie said:
he's making it sound as if Alvarez didn't call 911 even though Murray said we need an ambulance. that he was distracted by the children and didn't call.
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elusive moonwalker said:
i think the issue is that murray did ask alberto do dial 911 when he first got there . so that puts a downer on the cover up b4 ringing 911. then chernoff is gonna blame the kids blame alberto for not ringing till later. even though murray should have rung 20 mins earlier
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Pathetic. It was HIS duty to call 911 or get immediate help having been the only person with any idea that MJ was lying there lifeless from the get-go. Pfft!

Alavarez did great for the parts I was able to see. Chernoff does seem to have a Columbo style but in this case it's not effective. It's so off-the-charts unbelievable what Murray did and so insane what his attorney is doing in representing him. They are riding this wave to doom together.

These past 2 years feel like a really long bad dream.
 
If Chernoff is annoying the general public you know for sure he's aggravating the jurors, which is something they will not stand for.
 
bowen9999 said:
I think Chernoff is trying to discredit Alverez... to say he's lying 'cos he couldn't have done all that in that short space of time. I could be wrong but I see no other reasoning behind it.
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yeah he is. but hes so hard to listen to, to me its not obvious what hes trying to do so hopefully not obvious to the jury! bottom line the vials were hidden and were found so it corroberates the story but obviously chernoffs issue is you hid the vials after ringing 911 and not b4 and thats what hes trying to imply
 
ivy said:
I think Alberto draw and IV stand with an IV bag with a bottle in it and had tubing coming out of it. You say that tubing part doesn't match?
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Not me, Chernoff said the two pictures (the one drew in April 2011 and the one drew on 31st August 2009) are very different, which they are (were shown). But I don't think the difference is the long tube, but the position of the vial inside the IV bag. (It's difficult to interpret the first draw).

However, Alberto said he doesn't recall drawing the picture of August, that he would have been more detailed. Chernoff reminded him that the interview was recorded, Alberto said: " I don't recall, but I could".
 
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suzynyc said:
I was listening to this and it really touched me. I was just earlier today wondering if MJ's employees have been able to find work after losing him. I'm sorry Alvarez is having a difficult time financially but he is showing his good character and loyalty and respect for Michael by turning down all that money. How wonderful! That really warmed my heart.
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When I heard he turned down all that money in his financial situation, that spoke volumes to me about his character. It is good to know that there are still people in this world who hold precious the value of loyalty and truly cherish a friendship.
 
Sophielo said:
If Chernoff is annoying the general public you know for sure he's aggravating the jurors, which is something they will not stand for.
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And quite a few of these jurors are experienced in being on a jury. I wonder if they've ever seen anything like this. ha!

Btw...not sure which report I was watching last night but I understand the jurors are on the edge of their seats taking plenty notes. That's a good sign, imo.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
yeah he is. but hes so hard to listen to, to me its not obvious what hes trying to do so hopefully not obvious to the jury! bottom line the vials were hidden and were found so it corroberates the story but obviously chernoffs issue is you hid the vials after ringing 911 and not b4 and thats what hes trying to imply
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It's a lost cause, imo, cuz whether it was hidden before or after the 911 call, it was ultimately concealed from EMT and authorities. He's still screwed. If the stuff was to go to the hospital Murray should have taken it to the hospital. He did not.

Chernoff is going thru the motions of putting on a defense. He's gotta kill time somehow otherwise this trial would be over in 5..4...3..2...
 
I missed some parts of the direct examination, I'm happy to read Alberto Álvarez was asked by Walgren about selling stories to the media and his rejection to that. (In the preliminary audience Chernoff tried to explote that till he was stopped in the re-direct).
 
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one question ive got is re the eyes being open. medically whats the situation with that? if murray opened them to look at pupils would they stay open. i remember we talked about this ages ago. and the defence saying they were open cause he passed so quick ie when murray left the room
 
smoothlugar;3497229 said:
I missed some parts of the direct examination, I'm happy to read Alberto Álvarez was asked by Walgren about selling stories to the media and his rejection to that. (In the preliminary hearing Chernoff tried to explote that till he was stopped in the re-direct).
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yeah that part was done very nicely. he seemed very sincere.
 
If death occurs with the eyes still open then they stay open. Once Rigor Mortis sets in that's when the eyelids can be physically helped to the closed position...that's my understanding anyway.
 
^^ When the eyes are open and the person is dead, one has to manually close them...It happens a lot that the eyes are open when someone actually passes...
 
The defence desk are starting to remind me of the 3 stooges...Chernoff and CM at least.....
 
Everything what Alberto Alverez has done for Michael during and at the end of Michael's life, and the fact he didn't sold Michael Jackson for any kind of money shows what a man Alverez is. Honest, sincere and loyal till the end. His actions are the greatest tribute to Michael Jackson. :bow:

Chernoff sleazy slime! :puke:
 
the defense is missing the point that Murray was the doc on seen...Michael was HIS patient..it was NOT up to Alverez to override a doctor, Remember what the 911 operater said?? a Oh there is a doc on seen.ok. Even THEY felt comfortable knowing that, The defense is still trying to push the blame onto everyone except on Murray,,,,where it belongs. Pathetic.
 
Tell me please how the sleeping/unconscious man could stop breathe while sleeping but than opened his eyes? Sorry maybe this question is silly but i can't understand this point since first interviews of paramedics
 
smoothlugar said:
Not me, Chernoff said the two pictures (the one drew in April 2011 and the one drew on 31st August 2009) are very different, which they are (were shown). But I don't think the difference is the long tube, but the position of the vial inside the IV bag. (It's difficult to interpret the first draw).

However, Alberto said he doesn't recall drawing the picture of August, that he would have been more detailed. Chernoff reminded him that the interview was recorded, Alberto said: " I don't recall, but I could".
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this is the first drawing

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I see a stand , an IV bag with a bottle inside and tubing coming out of it.

The most recent drawing was a drawing of an IV bag only
 
Exactly ivy, the second drawing was just the bag not the whole thing.
 
see what im getting at with the eyes is this. the pros say murray gave the diprivan at 10.40. thats murrays words so to me mj passes while hes on the phone and he notices at midday. now if mjs eyes were open thats not really possible is it? cause murray obviously would notice if his eyes were open.so whats the pros theory? ass the eyes being open support the defence theory which is a worry to me

*edit* below is from cookie montzer in the medical thread they are a doctor

To my knowledge, it doesn't really have very much significance whether the eyes or mouth were open or closed. Yes, if someone opens the patient's eyes or mouth for some reason it will stay open if the patient is dead cos the muscles are not active anymore. In the same way, to then close the patient's eyes, it will have to be closed by someone else and held that way for a few moments for them to stay closed after death.
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re that drawing by alberto ive just got it before i thought the whole drawing was just of the bag lol that drawing just shows the iv stand but it still shows the same thing ie the bottle in the bag at that angle. grasping at straws
 
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just read my way thru the past 20 pages, unfortunately I wasn't home when the trial began so I couldn't watch, but from what it seems Alberto is doing a good/decent job so far holding up. He seems to be a genuine guy with genuine respect for Michael as he didn't sell him out to the media, despite of being offered up to 500, 000k.
I hope he's able to hang in there a while longer.
 
yeah hes done well. hopefully the cross wont be much longer
 
Alberto seems very nice and what he saw will stay with him forever. I hope he hangs in there with the cross examination. He just needs to say what he knows like he has been. 911 should have been called as soon as Murray saw Michael in bad shape. There were so many people around for him to yell call 911 and still try to help Michael.
 
I'm hoping for a more accurate TOD because I think it's very probable that he died earlier than what they are saying, and the coroner said it was almost instant death. The EMT's said he was cold to touch.
 
As i know the eyes wide open could be if you died being awake, or if you had agony of death before or if paramedics used electroshock. Well really sorry for this specification but it worrys me. There was nothing at all in Michael's event.
 
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