Latest on MJJC

Murray Trial - Day 14 - October 20 - Discussion

Let me correct myself. Not that propofol continued to flow after MJ was gone but after he stopped breathing But before his heart stopped

ill. The only. Way that am"ount of propofol could have gotten to those levels is the dr
 
Dear Lord, exactly how much Propofol combined with Lorazapam did Murray inject into Michael. I felt teary eyed as the expert kept going up with the levels to show how much stuff had been put into his body to arrive at the amounts shown at autopsy. Even if Murray is convicted the max sentence of 4 years is nowhere near enough for something so wreckless. God bless you Michael.
 
missred07 said:
base on the testimony so far. I think it's highly likable that Murray put MJ on IV drip of propofol and start to do his things, phone calls and text message etc. He didn't realized MJ stop breathing in 2 mins as he claimed. The propofol still going into MJ's body that's why the level is so high. That's why he didn't call 911 at first because he knew MJ won't be saved. That's why he performed CPR in a weird way because I think he just did that for showing to Prince or others. This can explain all his weird behavior because by the time he found out, it already too late.
Click to expand...

This is correct in my opinion. He is a doctor after all. Had he gotten in fact a pulse, he would of ensured ventilation instead of directly performing CPR (CPR is what you do when the patient has NO pulse).

I believe that he hooked him up to an IV drip of Propofol - possibly much, much earlier in the day/night; left at some point and returned to find MJ with no pulse. He performed CPR for 5-10 minutes and then stopped - if there is no pulse, the patient is brain dead after that period of time, even if one manages to bring him back. It's useless. So everything he did after that, he did knowing that Michael was gone and was only trying to cover his own *ss.
 
smoothlugar said:
Yes, Ivy, BUT with 40mg of lorazepam as well!!

Yes, I know we knew lorazepam given was higher, but even in the prelim it was expected between 7 and 12, but 40??
Click to expand...

That is an ASTOUNDING amount of lorazepam. We have no reason to NOT believe this witness, a total expert in his field.

A drip? But WHY would that much lorazepam have been in there in the first place? Unlike propofol, it takes awhile to leave the system, and it is cumulative. That was enough lorazepam to put down an elephant! This was a LETHAL dose, of both lorazepam and propofol. This no longer sounds like a mistake. If anyone can prove differently, and better, than this witness, good luck with that? I find this to be shocking, actually.
 
But, ivy, no doctor would give 40 mg of Lorazepam. That's just impossible. Plus Midazolam and Valium and Propofol. This just doesn't make any sense.
 
soulmum said:
Dear Lord, exactly how much Propofol combined with Lorazapam did Murray inject into Michael. I felt teary eyed as the expert kept going up with the levels to show how much stuff had been put into his body to arrive at the amounts shown at autopsy.
Click to expand...

Enough to kill him, several times over.
 
ivy said:
. .. I'm assuming that those indeed did not work for Michael and / or he had a high threshold level. Therefore Murray gave him more and more Lorazepam to bring him to a level that he would sleep. I think it didn't work and that's why Murray switched to Propofol. again I'm not that bright in regards to these medical stuff but regardless of MJ was given 12 or 40 mg Lorazepam, his blood levels were high therapeutic - which shows us he didn't die from it and he was metabolizing the high dose to acceptable levels (correct? ).
Click to expand...

Yes, that could be I suppose.
But even if lorazepam could have an accumulative effect, there's still a big difference between 12 and 40. That worries me in terms of the cross.
 
Autumn II said:
That is an ASTOUNDING amount of lorazepam. We have no reason to NOT believe this witness, a total expert in his field.

A drip? But WHY would that much lorazepam have been in there in the first place? Unlike propofol, it takes awhile to leave the system, and it is cumulative. That was enough lorazepam to put down an elephant! This was a LETHAL dose, of both lorazepam and propofol. This no longer sounds like a mistake. If anyone can prove differently, and better, than this witness, good luck with that? I find this to be shocking, actually.
Click to expand...

As far as I remember the half-life of Lorazepam is something around 16 hours. So if he gave him 40 mg during the night, let's say over 6 - 8 hours, by the end he had the full 40 mg in his system.
 
82Thriller84 said:
I would hope that the reason the Propofol level was scarily high is because, Murray didn't notice Michael not breathing and that his heart had stopped, (due to negligence and lack of equipment) rather then Murray just giving poor Michael an unbelievable and horrifying amount of Propofol. :(

Niether will ever make me forgive him, but the later is so much more difficult to comprehend :cry:
Click to expand...

The level was consistent with general anesthesia infusion after induction. It's not a great amount if it is given in a OR and the patient is properly ventilated. There was a prior witness who testified how the line between a sedation that allows spontaneous breathing and deep sedation is very blurry - one can aim to do a mild sedation and could end up with a patient who stops breathing, which is what has happened here.

The level is not high. It's just that every thing else (the setting, the equipment and everything else one can think of) was inconceivable, stupefying and plain wrong.
 
smoothlugar said:
Yes, that could be I suppose.But even if lorazepam could have an accumulative effect, there's still a big difference between 12 and 40. That worries me in terms of the cross.
Click to expand...
The 12 was what was found in mj? yet shaffers theory is that 40 was given over the entire night
 
Let me repeat this again ... according to the label of Lorazepam that I found online the daily dose for Lorazepam to treat anxiety and insomnia caused by it is 0.5 to 2.5 mg. If he gave him 40 mg in one day, that is 15 - 80 times the daily dose. Also, Lorazepam has a pretty long half-life, so maybe giving 2 mg and then giving 2 mg again after half an hour or hour, if the first dose didn't have any effect, that's still quite high, but I could understand this. Maybe even giving a third dose of 2 mg after another half hour or hour. But then at some point, you just have to stop. Even if there is no effect, because it's getting too high, too dangerous.

There are other Benzos with a shorter half-life, like Midazolam, I don't remember exactly, something with 2 - 3 hours, I think. Giving maybe 2 mg or twice 2 mg, and then 3 or 4 hours later giving the same amount would still be a wrong treatment for insomnia, but that I could understand. Somehow. It also would maybe seem wrong to me, but not reckless. But if the 40 mg of Lorazepam is actually true, that's just insane.
 
I am still worried when the defense have their turn. Who knows what they will do or say to get Murray off. I am staying cautious here.
 
Popescu said:
The level was consistent with general anesthesia infusion after induction. It's not a great amount if it is given in a OR and the patient is properly ventilated. There was a prior witness who testified how the line between a sedation that allows spontaneous breathing and deep sedation is very blurry - one can aim to do a mild sedation and could end up with a patient who stops breathing, which is what has happened here.

The level is not high. It's just that every thing else (the setting, the equipment and everything else one can think of) was inconceivable, stupefying and plain wrong.
Click to expand...

But how do you explain the Level that Dr. Shaffer is saying that was still in Michael's femerol blood?

It was more than if he'd been injected 6 times with 100mg! :sigh:

That's what I'm saying, i hope that it was the IV and lack of everything that went wrong that made that happen, rather than Murray purposely giving Michael that horrifying dose.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
The 12 was what was found in mj? yet shaffers theory is that 40 was given over the entire night
Click to expand...

In the preliminary, the expert estimated that the concentration level of lorazepam in femoral was consistent with 7mg to 12mg.

The toxicologist now at the trial, said he would estimate about 11mg of lorazepam.

That's why I'm asking about the 40mg now. (Maybe something was misunderstood...)
 
Yeah i get u smooth. shaffers theory was based over 12hrs. and based on the 40mg bottle that was found. he looked for how 40mg could be given through the night in order to reach the levels that were found.he came up with murray giving a dose every hour. how long does it take to go through the system though? interms showing what the concentration was at midday. i didnt get the impression he was saying there was 40mg in the blood just that that amount was given over 12hrs?
 
82Thriller84 said:
But how do you explain the Level that Dr. Shaffer is saying that was still in Michael's femerol blood?

It was more than if he'd been injected 6 times with 100mg! :sigh:

That's what I'm saying, i hope that it was the IV and lack of everything that went wrong that made that happen, rather than Murray purposely giving Michael that horrifying dose.
Click to expand...

This is how general anesthesia works. You make an initial injection of (say) 100, and then you maintain the initial concentration by having a machine administer the proper dosage via an IV drip at carefully calculated periods of time. In this case there was no machine, and sadly no anesthesiologist.
 
smoothlugar said:
In the preliminary, the expert estimated that the concentration level of lorazepam in femoral was consistent with 7mg to 12mg.

The toxicologist now at the trial, said he would estimate about 11mg of lorazepam.

That's why I'm asking about the 40mg now. (Maybe something was misunderstood...)
Click to expand...

Yeah, I hope I just misunderstood. Or we all did. But he sounded very clear about this. How this was the only model that would explain the blood level of Lorazepam.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
Yeah i get u smooth. shaffers theory was based over 12hrs. and based on the 40mg bottle that was found. he looked for how 40mg could be given through the night in order to reach the levels that were found.he came up with murray giving a dose every hour. how long does it take to go through the system though? interms showing what the concentration was at midday
Click to expand...

Like I said, the half-life is around 16 hours.

P.S. From Dan Anderson's testimony:

Anderson states that the half life of Lorazepam is 9-16 hours, and that he looked it up in a medical reference book to gain that information. Anderson states he doesn't know what the absorption time and/or the peak time of Lorazepam, that it is in the book, but he doesn't remember what it said.
Click to expand...

And about 3 weeks ago I posted this in some other thread:

I just googled a bit, Lorazepam has a rather long half life (found different things, about 12 hours, about 10 - 20 hours, on the German wikipedia page it says it is used for anxiety, because it pretty much lasts an entire day).
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
This is what I wrote yesterday on another thread "! believe Michael is on a drip too. I strongly believe some of Murray's claim in the tape statement is true and some made up to make himself look good and self-serving. My believe is Murray did give a bolus (not sure how much, probably more than 25mg) and then follow up with a drip.

This happen sometime at 10.40am (as claimed by Murray) and this is supported by the telephone record. There is a window period of 34mins before he called his office. After 11.18am, there is no gap between his phonecalls. He must have put Michael on propofol then and dripped him and watched for a while before he went out and make his strings of phonecalls, from 11.18am all the way till sometime 12pm when his was on call with Sade Anding and realised something is wrong.

Also, I believe Murray put Michael on propofol drip almost everyday for 2 months and this is outrageous! Basically, Murray is playing roulette with Michael's life. Just so happen nothing happen during the 2 months (perhaps just propofol alone) and on 25th June, the combination possibly with Lorazepam and other benzo just aggravate the situation.

With Dr Shafer's testimony today, I believe that Murray put Michael on drip sometime 10.40am (the only window period he has to set up the propofol) as I have said yesterday and went out doing his things. Sometime before noon, too much got into Michael and he stopped breathing but the drip is still running. Most likely when Murray discover Michael at about noon (Sade Anding's call), Michael is dead for sometime but the propofol is still flowing into his system, hence, the high level of propofol and in some area as high as 4.1 as compared to 2.6 in femoral blood.

Yes, like what Ivy said, between then and when he called Amir Williams, he had about 10 to 15 mins. He probably perform CPR instead of ventilation since Michael heart has stopped beating. I believe he lied about the pulse, warm body and everything else. Remember the paramedics estimate that Michael is probably dead for about 20 mins when they arrive.

This is so sad and outrageous! I am so, so angry and controlling myself from throwing the remote control at my TV set.
 
Popescu said:
This is how general anesthesia works. You make an initial injection of (say) 100, and then you maintain the initial concentration by having a machine administer the proper dosage via an IV drip at carefully calculated periods of time. In this case there was no machine, and sadly no anesthesiologist.
Click to expand...

I think I'm understanding it better, thank you Popescu.:happy:

But could you, if you are capable, clarify what this means as to why there was such a high level still in Michael?
 
Shaffer hasnt got to that yet.but no doubt he will say the iv kept infusing after mj stopped breathing
 
Oh yeah, during the 10 to 20 mins before the paramedics arrive, he was also hiding the vials, took the long tubing of the drip (which is missing). Again, Michael is already dead and not having a respiratory arrest as Murray claim, therefore, he did not use the ambu-bag and did not state that during his police statement.

Also as Ivy pointed out, Murray was putting on a show down ineffective CPR (with 1 hand and on the bed) since he know Michael is dead but more to put on a show to the security guard and the paramedics as though the whole thing just happen minutes ago.
 
smoothlugar said:
In the preliminary, the expert estimated that the concentration level of lorazepam in femoral was consistent with 7mg to 12mg.

The toxicologist now at the trial, said he would estimate about 11mg of lorazepam.

That's why I'm asking about the 40mg now. (Maybe something was misunderstood...)
Click to expand...

Could it be 11mg via drip but if assuming oral consumption, it would have been 40mg?
 
smoothlugar said:
In the preliminary, the expert estimated that the concentration level of lorazepam in femoral was consistent with 7mg to 12mg.

The toxicologist now at the trial, said he would estimate about 11mg of lorazepam.

That's why I'm asking about the 40mg now. (Maybe something was misunderstood...)
Click to expand...

Could it be 11mg via drip but if assuming oral consumption, it would have been 40mg?
 
82Thriller84 said:
I think I'm understanding it better, thank you Popescu.:happy:

But could you, if you are capable, clarify what this means as to why there was such a high level still in Michael?
Click to expand...

What elusive said - basically CM did what a doctor in the OR would do - he gave an initial injection and then kept infusing Propofol via an IV drip. To keep the patient sedated, the levels in the blood must remain constant throughout the procedure (I was going to write surgery, but clearly this was not the case). So if you don't have a machine who constantly pushes the substance, you either have to do it yourself (but this would mean having to inject every 10 minutes and this is not acceptable for 10 hours) or find a way to infuse it. CM did this via a simple drip, the same ones they use to infuse saline.
And he did this every night for two damn months.

I'm sure that doctor Shafer will explain it better after the break :)
 
Milka said:
As far as I remember the half-life of Lorazepam is something around 16 hours. So if he gave him 40 mg during the night, let's say over 6 - 8 hours, by the end he had the full 40 mg in his system.
Click to expand...

I think Shafer is just making an estimation here. For example his models do not include Michael getting Lorazepam the day before. With 16 hours half time some of Lorazepam given to him on June 23 still has to be in his system.
 
HumanNature2210 said:
This is what I wrote yesterday on another thread
Click to expand...

I'm with you too. My mother is an anesthesiologist and she said this from day one, after hearing the Propofol story. She also talked with some of her colleagues and they all agreed that this is what happened. It's the only thing that makes sense in a situation where everything else is senseless to the point of being outrageous and unfathomable.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top