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Murray Trial - Day 14 - October 20 - Discussion

There is every reason to think that he would still be alive if the drip was stopped. He shows how fast the levels of Propofol will fall, even if Michael stopped breathing.
 
between 9-10am his breathing is slowing. carbon dioxide levels would be going up and that keeps u breathing. at 10am carbon levels are higher but hes still breathing as hes on the oxygen. murray would be thinking mj is fine and asleep. as u get to near noon the carbon cant keep him breathing any longer. so the breathing slows can the slow breathing be detected? yes with caponomentry and the pulse oxy. if he was sat next to mj he would have seen the breathing slow.easily saved mj if murray was there

so at 11-11.45 whats happening? breathing slower and slower interruptions in mjs breathing mj may have made a noise like gasping/coughing. might not have though. shaffer says the infusion was still running when mj died and thats why the concentrations were so high. its the only senario he could come up with that would produce such a level and thats based off murrays own words and the amount of diprivan he brought.fits with murray saying that he left mj alone. he observed mj for an hour that everything was ok but it wasnt cause there was no pulse oxy carbon monitoring. shaffer says all the data in this case fits perfectly with this senario. theres no data that doesnt fit. shaffer says this in his opinion is what happened to mj .

what if the diprivan runs out at noon and mj is still alive? the concentrations would drop quickly like he said b4. so he believes the infusion was still running when mj died because the levels never dropped they were still high and the diprivan kept going into mj. man this is hard *fills up*

shaffer is gonna show how u set up a IV infusion. chernoff gettting pissed saying this is based off a hypothetical .no its based off shaffers testimony. all those hypotheticals are coming back to haunt chernoff
 
Propofol was going into his body, even as his heart was stopping? That is correct.

He steps down to demonstrate the infusion setup.

elusive, glad that you're back! :) I can resume commenting from the sidelines :)
 
Did he just say that he thinks Michael died while the infusion was still going on?
 
oh snap. THey are about to do an infusion set up in the court room!
 
Where did Chernoff go? To plant a bomb on the witnesses seat?
 
Milka said:
Let me repeat this again ... according to the label of Lorazepam that I found online the daily dose for Lorazepam to treat anxiety and insomnia caused by it is 0.5 to 2.5 mg. If he gave him 40 mg in one day, that is 15 - 80 times the daily dose. Also, Lorazepam has a pretty long half-life, so maybe giving 2 mg and then giving 2 mg again after half an hour or hour, if the first dose didn't have any effect, that's still quite high, but I could understand this. Maybe even giving a third dose of 2 mg after another half hour or hour. But then at some point, you just have to stop. Even if there is no effect, because it's getting too high, too dangerous.

There are other Benzos with a shorter half-life, like Midazolam, I don't remember exactly, something with 2 - 3 hours, I think. Giving maybe 2 mg or twice 2 mg, and then 3 or 4 hours later giving the same amount would still be a wrong treatment for insomnia, but that I could understand. Somehow. It also would maybe seem wrong to me, but not reckless. But if the 40 mg of Lorazepam is actually true, that's just insane.
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Yes, and thanks for your "science mind." That is 15 to 80 TIMES a therapeutic dose.

Shafer's credentials are impeccable. I doubt anyone here knows BETTER than he does, about the dosage and the effects, i.e. DEATH?
 
He not only uses the same tubing as CM did, he uses the same brand of saline!
 
Dr Shafer now demonstrating infusion set-up! Really good thing to do, gives the jurors a clear idea of how it works etc. I find it pretty interesting as well, more interesting than simply sitting and hearing someone speak, although he is pretty interesting to listen to!
 
How can anybody on the jury have doubt and let this killer walk?
 
Michael dies and all this propofol is still going in him? Murray is where? Not with Michael.
 
smoothlugar said:
The "vented" infusion set...
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Yep! They are showing it. Murray purchased it which was to be used with a pump but Murray didn't have a pump. He just used the tubing. Murray took the tubing down. BUSTED! Jury is going to wonder where it went.
 
Murray wrote earlier something on his notebook and showed it to Flanagan and Baldy, they just approached the judge.
 
mentions the long tubing had no dip in it and the short tubing did. that makes sense to shaffer. shows the catheter to the jury how it was put in mj. he thinks thats the set up used on mj. but its not the full set for giving diprivan. u need another vented infusion set that lets air in to the bottle to help the diprivan come out of the bottle.. there was a vented infusion set bought by murray. the vented IV should be used with an infusion pump. murray bought a pump. but didnt use it. the spike goes into the 100ml bottle. the 100ml bottle shown yesterday had the slit in it caused by a spike. you then hang the diprivan bottle from the iv pole by a plastic handle attached to the top of the bottle

(i bet the bottle found in the IV bag didnt have that handle on it. its only a small thing and could tear off so murray put the bottle in the iv bag instead in order to hang it up) if so thats a smoking gun to me. get the bottle of diprivan out walgren and show us!!
 
I wonder why the defense wants to talk to the judge?
 
wendy2004 said:
Yep! They are showing it. Murray purchased it which was to be used with a pump but Murray didn't have a pump. He just used the tubing. Murray took the tubing down. BUSTED! Jury is going to wonder where it went.
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If he used the vented tubing to give the propofol then what was the purpose of the propofol bottle (vial) inside the saline bag? I thought that was how the propofol was being infused...or am i jumping the gun here and they'll come on to that?
 
Murray is pissed o** shaking his head all the time
 
So, am I getting this right? Schaffer is implying that Murray gave MJ propofol via infusion then, when he realised he had ded/was dying, he took the propofol bottle off the IV stand, removed the tubing (& hid it somewhere), cut open the saline bag, popped the bottle into it and basically made it look like he'd only given Michael saline for dehydration?
 
Did you see how freaked out Murray looked just then?! Looked like he was shaking his head as well!
 
They are now taking a sidebar. I bet the defense is nervous. Noticed Murray's breathing increasing ever since Shafer started talking about the scientific evidence point towards a drip. When the tubing was brought out he wrote something and passed it to Flanagan.

He looks worried; skittish. THe judge is cracking jokes but he ain't laughing at ALL. Serious as a mofo.

They are now taking a short break.
 
For those who aren't able to watch… heres a Picture of the Demonstration by Dr. Shaffer, of the Propofol & Saline bag on the IV pole in Court.






Mid-Afternoon break is now. :)
 
volitional said:
If he used the vented tubing to give the propofol then what was the purpose of the propofol bottle (vial) inside the saline bag? I thought that was how the propofol was being infused...or am i jumping the gun here and they'll come on to that?
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the nurse KZ on trials and tribulations said that probably due to the spike some propofol was dripping to the floor and that's why Murray put it into a cut IV bag - to collect the spills.
 
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