"A Truth Untold" GOES LIVE. Book publication aimed to present the truth about the Cascio songs.

Re: "A Truth Untold" GOES LIVE. Book publication aimed to present the truth about the Cascio songs.

If I pay for this, how do I know that I won't end up with a slight, 150-page book that is 80 % recycled stuff that all die-hard fans know, 10 % laudatory comments about how great MJ was, 5 % anti-Cascio sentiment from a few "celebrity" interviewees, and 5 % unconclusive results from an agenda-driven forensic test?

One of the co-authors of the book has a blog and, in my opinion, the depth and quality of his writing, including reporting of completely exclusive information (such as how Michael recorded I Am A Loser, Scared Of The Moon or She Was Loving Me), speak for themselves.
 
Re: "A Truth Untold" GOES LIVE. Book publication aimed to present the truth about the Cascio songs.

Shields who describes himself as an investigative journalist, said he had quit his job at a marketing firm to focus on the project.

"It's basically a labour of love for Michael Jackson and a quest to discover the truth," he said.

Shields said the group had raised $6000 of the $40,000 needed to complete the investigation, including hiring a "professional forensic musicologist."!

He had quit his job for the book? Huch.
 
Re: "A Truth Untold" GOES LIVE. Book publication aimed to present the truth about the Cascio songs.

Personally speaking, people are free to do what they want with their money, but I think faulting Damien and the rest of the ATU team for going about it the way they did isn't necessary. People want to get to the bottom of this and have this issue resolved completely. When you have the choice of donating as little as 10 bucks, I don't think you have proper ground to imply that they have such diabolical purposes for needed money for this.


On another note, 12,000+ already reached with 26 days to go. Way to go, guys!
 
Re: "A Truth Untold" GOES LIVE. Book publication aimed to present the truth about the Cascio songs.

Actually Korgnex no you wouldnt need the source material. Using the acapella for Breaking News will suffice for a forensic musicologist.
 
Re: "A Truth Untold" GOES LIVE. Book publication aimed to present the truth about the Cascio songs.

Actually Korgnex no you wouldnt need the source material. Using the acapella for Breaking News will suffice.

There seem to be many misconceptions about what a forensic report would constitute in this case. I work in a related field. From the conversations I had with colleagues and musicologists (including forensic musicologists) it appears that a raw "a capella" track is not needed for an analysis. Actually, most musicologists would conduct their analyses on a complete recording within the context of the music. The only manipulation they would require a priori is masking all samples identified from previous Michael Jackson recordings (breaths, screams. vocal tics), of which there are plenty on each Cascio song.

A forensic musicologist's test is not hard science. It is expert opinion; a detailed description of the characteristics of a singing voice in question juxtaposed with that of what would be expected from a specific singer, in this case Michael Jackson, based on his body of work. It could also include discussion of phonetics, usually associated with speech (but also detectable in a musical context) such as accent or enunciation. A report could even discuss songwriting or the composition.

Spectrum analysis, for which a separate vocal track would be needed, is only a minor part of what would be a forensic musicologist's report on these songs.
 
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Re: "A Truth Untold" GOES LIVE. Book publication aimed to present the truth about the Cascio songs.

My question is what if the musicologists conclusion is yeah its Michael, would it not make sense to do this before announcing any book thus (if said its not him) this could be your lead announcement and one that will get you maximum backing from all, after all its a 50/50 bet your taking and with fans money - not really fair on them taking all the risk is it.
 
Re: "A Truth Untold" GOES LIVE. Book publication aimed to present the truth about the Cascio songs.

My question is what if the musicologists conclusion is yeah its Michael, would it not make sense to do this before announcing any book thus (if said its not him) this could be your lead announcement and one that will get you maximum backing from all, after all its a 50/50 bet your taking and with fans money - not really fair on them taking all the risk is it.

That is a great question and it would be indeed interesting to hear why they didn't get a report ready in time for the campaign.
 
Re: "A Truth Untold" GOES LIVE. Book publication aimed to present the truth about the Cascio songs.

One of the co-authors of the book has a blog and, in my opinion, the depth and quality of his writing, including reporting of completely exclusive information (such as how Michael recorded I Am A Loser, Scared Of The Moon or She Was Loving Me), speak for themselves.

Remember Joe Vogel's book, and how informative that was supposed to be? Yeah...
 
Re: "A Truth Untold" GOES LIVE. Book publication aimed to present the truth about the Cascio songs.

There seem to be many misconceptions about what a forensic report would constitute in this case. I work in a related field. From the conversations I had with colleagues and musicologists (including forensic musicologists) it appears that a raw "a capella" track is not needed for an analysis. Actually, most musicologists would conduct their analyses on a complete recording within the context of the music. The only manipulation they would require a priori is masking all samples identified from previous Michael Jackson recordings (breaths, screams. vocal tics), of which there are plenty on each Cascio song.

A forensic musicologist's test is not hard science. It is expert opinion; a detailed description of the characteristics of a singing voice in question juxtaposed with that of what would be expected from a specific singer, in this case Michael Jackson, based on his body of work. It could also include discussion of phonetics, usually associated with speech (but also detectable in a musical context) such as accent or enunciation. A report could even discuss songwriting or the composition.

Spectrum analysis, for which a separate vocal track would be needed, is only a minor part of what would be a forensic musicologist's report on these songs.

Thanks for this info.

Two questions:

1 How much does it cost to obtain such an expert opinion? It can't be $40,000, can it?

2 What is the relative value of such an opinion compared to the forensic tests the Estate claim they've done? Because even if Damien's guy says it's not MJ, won't the Estate just say that their research, which is more scientific, objective and conclusive, says it is? Won't we just go back to square one?
 
Re: "A Truth Untold" GOES LIVE. Book publication aimed to present the truth about the Cascio songs.

Remember Joe Vogel's book, and how informative that was supposed to be? Yeah...
What's wrong with Joe Vogel's book?

Thanks for this info.

Two questions:

1 How much does it cost to obtain such an expert opinion? It can't be $40,000, can it?

2 What is the relative value of such an opinion compared to the forensic tests the Estate claim they've done? Because even if Damien's guy says it's not MJ, won't the Estate just say that their research, which is more scientific, objective and conclusive, says it is? Won't we just go back to square one?

1. $40,000 is not just for a forensic musicologist. It's already been answered what the money is for.

2. The forensic musicologist is not the main part of the book. Also I'd assume the detailed report of the results will be in this book, whereas Sony or the Estate never released any details or proof that they even conducted any tests, or if they did, what kind of tests were conducted.
 
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Re: "A Truth Untold" GOES LIVE. Book publication aimed to present the truth about the Cascio songs.

What's wrong with Joe Vogel's book?



.

He told me it would be jam-packed with new interviews and commentary from MJ's collaborators, when in reality it was 99 % recycled stuff from old sources. I learned nothing.
 
Re: "A Truth Untold" GOES LIVE. Book publication aimed to present the truth about the Cascio songs.

Krizkil, it is natural to ask questions. I would have loved to seen authors who penned horrific biographies on Michael, that were loose on facts and high on fabrications, held accountable before the books were published. Instead, demands for accountability happened after publication. In this instance, there is a demand that the public have complete transparency to the compiling phase which I have never seen done before.

I have not seen that many questions about how the monies would be spent so I do not believe that is the primary concern. The major complaint I have seen is if certain parties will be interviewed for this book. That fear should be put to rest as any party who is resistant will most likely have their legal representatives handle it.

Difference of course is that those authors didn't ask fans for $40k to fund their books. A publisher took the risk paying them their advance and then fans and the general public could make the decision to buy or not once it was out, reviewed and fans had a clear idea of actual content.

Fans of course DID express worry and concern about a great many MJ books before they were published but they had no control over them beforehand, merely after by boycotting and bad word of mouth. They weren't in a position to ask questions and demand greater clarity....as they ARE in this situation.

As to the inclusion of certain individuals, I do believe the extent of their cooperation should have been determined beforehand and shared with fans. I'd contribute if I thought this could be more than just a reiteration of one side of the debate.
 
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Krizkil, those contributing to the Kickstarter initiative will receive benefits as per the level of their contribution. No level of contribution allows for complete transparency during the compiling phase and that transparency does not exist for any pending book. Those who have contributed can demand whatever they wish however, they will be limited to their contribution benefit.

I do not believe this is the first book where fans did not have a “clear idea of actual content” as you say. Fans knew Taborelli and Sullivan would write about Michael's life without knowing the direction they would take, who would be interviewed, or what events would be detailed. This book will discuss a sensitive subject and I believe that is where the concern derives from; not the Kickstarter initiative or interviews.
 
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Tygger;3931516 said:
Krizkil, those contributing to the Kickstarter initiative will receive benefits as per the level of their contribution. No level of contribution allows for complete transparency during the compiling phase and that transparency does not exist for any pending book. Those who have contributed can demand whatever they wish however, they will be limited to their contribution benefit.

I do not believe this is the first book where fans did not have a “clear idea of actual content” as you say. Fans knew Taborelli and Sullivan would write about Michael's life without knowing the direction they would take, who would be interviewed, or what events would be detailed. This book will discuss a sensitive subject and I believe that is where the concern derives from; not the Kickstarter initiative or interviews.

But as I said, fans weren't asked to provide the financial backing for Sullivan or Taborelli's books beforehand, with only a sketch as to details. Their publishers took the financial risk and therefore could provide as much or as little information pre-publication as they wanted. Fans would have the opportunity to read reviews after it was published, before spending their money on it.

Hmm...this particular controversy has been discussed endlessly for years so I don't think it's sensitivity about the issue that's the concern. For me, it's simply what are fans getting for this money? After all, banks don't loan $ without a clearly defined business plan; don't see why fans shouldn't be entitled to the same.
 
Re: "A Truth Untold" GOES LIVE. Book publication aimed to present the truth about the Cascio songs.

They're not going to make $40,000.

/thread.
 
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Re: "A Truth Untold" GOES LIVE. Book publication aimed to present the truth about the Cascio songs.

Krizkil, as humorous as it sounds, I noticed that those who contributed via Kickstarter or at the very least support this book's release do not hold as many reservations as those who do not contribute or believe this issue should not be publicized and/or documented in this manner.

No book has complete transparency; whether supported by a publishing house or not. If this group's answers are not satisfactory, simply do not contribute.

This issue is extremely sensitive as it divided the fan community and has wide reaching repercussions. There was no unification among fan reaction to these songs. If there were, the songs most likely would have been removed from Michael's catalog by now.
 
Re: "A Truth Untold" GOES LIVE. Book publication aimed to present the truth about the Cascio songs.

What's the harm in donating $10 if you have any interest in the Cascio situation at all? These fans have obviously worked very hard gathering information for us. Travelling overseas, spending thousands of their own money, quitting their job in one case. This has been 3 years of research. They are not just sitting on their butts gathering info from the net and hoping to bleed fans dry of their money.
 
Re: "A Truth Untold" GOES LIVE. Book publication aimed to present the truth about the Cascio songs.

These fans have obviously worked very hard gathering information for us.

obviously? how is it obvious? because they told they have been working on it for 3 years but cannot even mention the names they interviewed to date?


They're not going to make $40,000.

I know I have been critical but it's too early to say. They can do it. People might pledge at the first of the month or towards the end of the pledging period. It's probable that it could have fast collection at the beginning and also at the end.
 
Re: "A Truth Untold" GOES LIVE. Book publication aimed to present the truth about the Cascio songs.

Well, you can assume they are liars I suppose. I'm wont assume that.
 
Re: "A Truth Untold" GOES LIVE. Book publication aimed to present the truth about the Cascio songs.

Well, you can assume they are liars I suppose. I'm wont assume that.

I did not say that so please don't twist my words. They could have interviewed one person, they could have interviewed 100 people. We don't know. Without knowing what has been done, it's impossible to say if they worked hard or if they just started. It's just that there's nothing "obvious" about it because they are in a weird secrecy (still) and we don't know anything concrete to be honest. (unless you are in the close friend circle and you are told stuff). So I did not assume them to be liars , I just disagreed with your comment that the work they have done is "obvious". It is far far from obvious, it's a lot more closer to being a secret.
 
Re: "A Truth Untold" GOES LIVE. Book publication aimed to present the truth about the Cascio songs.

quitting their job in one case

Someone quit their job for this ? Wow... that's quite... drastic :bored2:
 
Re: "A Truth Untold" GOES LIVE. Book publication aimed to present the truth about the Cascio songs.

gif-jail-sigh-gif.gif
 
Re: "A Truth Untold" GOES LIVE. Book publication aimed to present the truth about the Cascio songs.

I have $500 with Damien's name on it but he needs to be more forthcoming with details.
 
Re: "A Truth Untold" GOES LIVE. Book publication aimed to present the truth about the Cascio songs.

I did not say that so please don't twist my words. They could have interviewed one person, they could have interviewed 100 people. We don't know. Without knowing what has been done, it's impossible to say if they worked hard or if they just started. It's just that there's nothing "obvious" about it because they are in a weird secrecy (still) and we don't know anything concrete to be honest. (unless you are in the close friend circle and you are told stuff). So I did not assume them to be liars , I just disagreed with your comment that the work they have done is "obvious". It is far far from obvious, it's a lot more closer to being a secret.

I didn't mean to twist your words, but I don't see how you can watch that interview with Damien and not get the impression that at least they believe that they have worked very hard. Even if they have not shown the proof of that work. I do agree that they need to be a bit more forthcoming with a few details.
 
Re: "A Truth Untold" GOES LIVE. Book publication aimed to present the truth about the Cascio songs.

I did not say that so please don't twist my words. They could have interviewed one person, they could have interviewed 100 people. We don't know. Without knowing what has been done, it's impossible to say if they worked hard or if they just started. It's just that there's nothing "obvious" about it because they are in a weird secrecy (still) and we don't know anything concrete to be honest. (unless you are in the close friend circle and you are told stuff). So I did not assume them to be liars , I just disagreed with your comment that the work they have done is "obvious". It is far far from obvious, it's a lot more closer to being a secret.

This book is like any other book that has ever been published whether through a publishing house or not. I do not agree that there is a "weird secrecy" or a level of secrecy higher than any other book looking to expose some action(s). The fact that the book will be used to expose some truths as this group views it, may explain why this group does keep some information private; particularly what they discovered thus far and who or what revealed that information.

If we knew every fact, every interview, every word, every punctuation mark, what would be the purpose of reading this book or any other book after release?
 
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Re: "A Truth Untold" GOES LIVE. Book publication aimed to present the truth about the Cascio songs.

If we knew every fact, every interview, every word, every punctuation mark, what would be the purpose of reading this book or any other book after release?

I did not say that either. I said for example why can't they tell the names of the people they interviewed to date. I never asked them to release what they discovered, not even a tiny bit and actually previously I wrote I don't need that. Obviously just mentioning names of the people interviewed and/or committed to be interviewed are A LOT different than the full content (the every fact, every word you wrote).

You are wasting your time by trying to argue with me. My point stays. I believe if they even only said "exclusive interviews with x,y,z" it would bring a lot more transparency about the work they have done, their efforts would be a lot more "obvious" and it would result in higher support for their project. For example personally I might support it if I believe it to be a worthwhile effort, currently I only have some vague and sometimes contradictory statements about the project and that doesn't allow me to properly assess the benefit of this project. Some people need no information, just the mere word of Cascio songs is enough for them to put all their disposable income to supporting this project. People are different. Different opinions and different approaches are fine. As in everything some people agree with my point, some don't. You are free to disagree. and please feel free to ignore me especially when my exchange wasn't even with you.
 
Re: "A Truth Untold" GOES LIVE. Book publication aimed to present the truth about the Cascio songs.

Ivy, a simple disagreement is not an argument unless you feel the need to make it one. I know my views tend to encourage that for you. This is my view that I am free to express as the view you expressed was on a public discussion board. Naming interviewees can alert those in this situation to what was discovered. That simple.
 
MattyJam;3931695 said:
They're not going to make $40,000.

/thread.

I don't know how you can say that with such confidence. People have made more money in lesser time using Kickstarter. Example...

Indiegogo said:
The original goal for the campaigns was to raise $80,000 for Scott (Hall/Razor Ramon) and $9,200 for Jake ("The Snake" Roberts) – enough money to get the surgeries done and keep them both sober while they were living at DDP’s “Accountability Crib”. In the end, Scott was able to raise over $100,000 while Jake raised nearly $30,000 for a grand total of over $130,000 from wrestling fans around the world. Obviously, that is an insane number and is awesome to hear.

The campaign was launched on March 8th and was ended on April 7th, though $100,00+ had already been reached two or three days before they actually shut it down. This shows it's at the very least, possible. Very possible.
 
I already said I'm out of this thread, but I am dropping this new update in here, since it addresses a lot of questions.

Update #3
Nov 21, 2013
Questions and Answers


Hi everyone!

A lot of people have been wondering about certain elements of the campaign, our research and the proposed book. We recently received the below collection of questions and felt that they were all very valid questions and that our backers, and the public, would appreciate knowing our responses. So, here they are:

Q: Given that your team have already made up your minds about Cascio songs, how are you going to be able to maintain objectivity?

A. We believe our approach with the A Truth Untold campaign speaks for itself in terms of objectivity.The work at the heart of A Truth Untold isn’t about what any member of our team thinks or feels about those songs. It’s an objective work. It will document the facts and detail the events that unfolded based on the first-hand recollections and testimony of those involved. Not every detail we’ve uncovered thus far suggests that the vocals aren’t Michael’s, just as not every detail suggests that they are. We are here to uncover ALL the facts possible so that the audience can draw their own conclusions.

Q. How can you tell the whole story if the other side (Cascio, Estate, Sony etc.) doesn't talk to you? Wouldn't it be better to try to secure interviews with them before making promises about uncovering the truth?


A.
We sincerely hope that all parties will participate in our quest for the truth and contribute whatever information they have. We have reached out to many of those on both sides of the controversy. Some, but not all, have already participated in interviews or provided useful information. Others have indicated that they’d be open to doing so. Our work will not be considered complete until we feel all parties on all sides have had sufficient opportunity to tell their story.


Q. Why a book? Why not a website or even a e-book for lower costs?


A.
Our plan is to publish both a physical book and an e-book. Even though our information will be made available online and in an e-book, we feel a physical book is important because it has lasting presence. Michael Jackson’s artistry will be revered and studied for centuries to come. We hope that this book will play an important role in documenting a key moment in Michael Jackson’s posthumous artistic legacy. Based on early manuscripts, the book may be upwards of 300 pages in length. That’s a lot of information that could easily be inappropriately taken out of context or worse, lost completely on the world wide web. A physical book is also something we know many fans will appreciate, as not everyone is comfortable with electronic media. A physical book also provides for a nice reward for those who’ve backed the work we’re doing.


Q. Don't you think there is confusion regarding what this book will be about? Some people expect you to explicitly state that Cascio songs are fake, however some of your comments include presenting both sides and letting people make their own conclusions. Your recent description says the book is not only about Cascio songs but MJ's final 3 years in the recording studio.


A.
We want to dig as deep as possible, uncover the untold facts, and present them in an informative piece of literature. This could not possibly be considered an objective piece of investigative journalism if all parties are not given an equal opportunity to tell their story. We are here to lay out all the facts objectively so that fans can draw their own conclusions.

One of the most exciting things we’ve been fortunate to attain as part of our research is incredible insight to Michael Jackson’s final years in the recording studio. The information we have learned from that insight, combined with the information already on public record from many of the high-profile producers who worked with Michael, will allow us to detail how he worked and what he was working on. After all, a number of the posthumously released songs, including those provided by Cascio and Porte, are attributed to that period of time. So naturally we will go into as much relevant detail about Michael’s final years working on music as possible. It’s part of the story.

Q. Do you really think this book could bring closure to the fans in regards to Michael album?


A.
Absolutely. Part of the problem right now is that fans continue to go around in circles with theories and speculation. There’s a lot of bickering and negativity and this is largely attributed to the fact that there is not enough factual information on the subject available. We are here to break through that bickering with something solid and tangible. And the information that is available has never been assembled and articulated in a way that paints a complete overall picture with testimony from those who were there.


Q. Why not start with the forensic analysis first? What happens if the forensic test says it's Michael, or it cannot be determined either way? What happens if you interview people and they say it is Michael on those songs?


A.
Forensic analysis is a big part of the work we want to move forward with, but our independent funds simply do not allow us to engage those services without this Kickstarter campaign. We have however done a lot of the groundwork assessing the science, the methodology and the potential outcomes of a professional forensic analysis. We’ve also vetted a number of different types of sound analysts to ensure we engage the services of the most appropriate experts in the field. Forensic analysis will be significant and among our largest investigative expenses, but by no means is it the entirety of our investigation.

Whatever the forensic results are, we will publish them. If we interview people who believe that the vocals are in fact authentic, which we have, we will publish their testimony. We treat the opinions and accounts of ALL sources with equal regard. So long as the information comes from a legitimate and relevant source, it will be published, analysed, and cross-checked. We are guaranteeing a fact-driven work from which the reader can draw his or her own conclusions.

Q. Why not reveal who you have interviewed, and the topics you have investigated? Why the secrecy about the project?


A.
We know it may be frustrating for eager fans, but we must abide by journalistic due diligence. At this stage of our investigation we have an obligation to protect the confidentiality of our sources and the information they have provided to us thus far. We are also in the process of conducting further interviews which may influence the way particular events are presented. Remember, the investigation and the manuscript are not complete at this point. We need to fact-check the information provided to us and, where possible, present that information based on several corroborating recollections. In the case of conflicting versions of events from different sources we will articulate both accounts and allow the reader to draw their own conclusions. This takes time and until we can corroborate as much of our research as possible we are not in a position to disclose it. We do not want to misrepresent the facts.


Q. Do you think Cascio, The Estate, Sony etc. will even respond to you given that you are openly against these songs?


A.
A Truth Untold is not openly for or against these songs. A Truth Untold is openly questioning these songs. We acknowledge that we all have opinions on this issue, many of which have been strongly voiced in the past, but we must set those opinions aside and allow the facts to dictate the narrative of this project. We hope all parties are open to contributing any relevant information they may be able to provide towards our research as we pursue our quest for the truth.


Q. Why not a lawsuit?


A.
Even though we are not attorneys, we’d imagine anyone who purchased the album is capable of filing a lawsuit if they see fit. A Truth Untold is a research project to be written and published as a book. The information published in our book will be the most thorough and accurate account publicly available regarding this issue. Once published, anyone can use the information presented in our book however they see fit. In theory, we suppose that could include someone out there filing a lawsuit. But to be clear, that’s not what A Truth Untold is about at this time or in the foreseeable future. A Truth Untold is about discovering and documenting the facts.

If you have a question that is not answered here please feel free to send it to us and we’ll do our best to address it in due course.

Thanks once again to everyone for your support. It means the world to us.


The ATU Team


(I hate how the forum removes the paragraphs automatically after a copy-paste....)
 
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