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I Am a Fan, But... (What Makes You Heretic Among Other Fans?)

Mister_Jay_Tee said:
That's not true and is just hyperbolic.

Brad never claimed he wrote the music and MJ just wrote lyrics to it. He said this is the song where he had his biggest contribution creatively, but he never claimed he wrote the music all alone. He said it was a collaboration with MJ in that Moscow hotel room where they TOGETHER wrote the song basically in 1.5-2 hours. It's just simply the case that MJ didn't compose it entirely alone.


But there's way more egregious examples of singers just taking someone else's song lol. Try Prince for that.

Meanwhile, you're upset that instead of the media writing whatever they wanted about MJ, MJ decided to bloody the waters to keep them out of his business? Because what makes you think there's any stopping tabloid rags. There's not. The press don't care about "keeping you in the publics attention". They're just an exploitative industry.
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sure, buddy, twist my words. whatever I guess

MJ ❤️
 
Michaels Lover said:
How is this heretic? lol everyone loves smooth criminal
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Sorry maybe i misunderstood the post but i just replied to that comment as someone pointed out, no worries. However idk if it's considered a heretic but i'm not a big fan of BOTDF.
Edit i just realized the post is 7 years old lol.
 
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eckoes said:
I will precise what I mean: it's known nowadays that MJ himself asked, in the mid 80s, for stories to be planted in the press to keep said press to keep talking about him all the time. The Hyperbaric chamber, the Elephant man bones, etc. He thought it was funny. And then, complains about media attention in Leave Me Alone, even refering in the music video to stories he collaborated on planting with the help of his manager. I mean, he can't have it both ways, can he?

That's really about it. It's about using medias for his own gain and then complaining about it. It's a bit hypocritical. But really, that's about it.

I love the man ❤️
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this exactly.

michael planted those stories in the media about him sleeping in an oxygen chamber, and buying the elephant man’s bones, and many others, with the help of his manager frank dileo.

his mother katherine and brother jermaine both confirmed this in their books. frank was asked directly about this in a print interview around the time of the trial. he refused to comment. if it wasn’t true why not deny it? in michael’s ‘ebony’ interview in 1987, he stated that some of the stories about him were true and others weren’t, without divulging any further. he didn’t even address those stories in his autobiography. the headline about the oxygen chamber was included the highlight reel in the retrospective section of the ‘moonwalker’ movie. that story along with the elephant man’s bones, was also featured on the ‘dangerous’ album cover. also featured on that cover was p.t barnum, who inspired this new model that michael had begun using. michael wanted to be seen as mysterious and larger than life. even janet questioned why he would do that ‘because he was so great’, and she was right..

prior to this, michael’s music and talent spoke for itself. there was no need for such shenanigans. he was already interesting and unique as his true self. the image he created afterwards was beneath him. it only served to shift the attention away from what was the most important: his music. some fans wonder why his work post ‘thriller’ doesn’t get the same critical analysis (even though it did), that’s the reason. it backfired, and the media, as well as frank dileo, created their own stories without michael’s consent. all of which were loony, and it became impossible to decipher fact from fiction. the lines became blurred. by the time michael realised he made a mistake it was too late. the damage had been done. he had two choices; to continue to perpetuate this caricature, or to completely rebrand and be honest with the public.

he attempted the latter with his interview with oprah winfrey in 1993. as well as his speech when he received the grammy legend award (an award that michael’s team negotiated with the academy to give to him). performing at the superbowl and clinton gala, were ways to make him more visible and shed the mystique around him. for some, it worked and they developed what they thought was a new understanding of him. for others, it was too late and damage had been done a long time ago. we all know what was around the corner.. 💔
 
83magic said:
prior to this, michael’s music and talent spoke for itself. there was no need for such shenanigans. he was already interesting and unique as his true self. the image he created afterwards was beneath him. it only served to shift the attention away from what was the most important: his music. some fans wonder why his work post ‘thriller’ doesn’t get the same critical analysis (even though it did), that’s the reason.
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But it wasn't his true self. Someone already pointed out to me how MJs personality shifted between 1981 and 1982. He became "mysterious and sultry" already. At Motown 25 he had that determination. That's when he started with the shades indoors, the military garb with Adam Ant, etc. That all came about because of Thriller, because of his conscious choice.

And the salacious stories, the headlines, those started in 1984.

As an increasingly public figure, Michael Jackson has found himself subject to increasingly nasty rumors. Last week he took time out from his national tour to deny a batch of stories and throw down his glove in challenge to anyone who cared to print them in the future.
He said, among other things, that he was not a homosexual, had never had cosmetic surgery on his eyes or cheekbones, and did not take hormones to keep his voice high-pitched. Furthermore, he added, he plans to marry and have children some time. The 26-year-old pop singer also said his lawyers had been told to sue any publication that printed false rumors about him. Mr. Jackson said he was taking steps to halt the gossip because of ''the far-reaching trauma'' felt by those close to him.

Enough Is Enough https://www.nytimes.com/1984/09/09/weekinreview/enough-is-enough.html?smid=nytcore-android-share
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
But it wasn't his true self. Someone already pointed out to me how MJs personality shifted between 1981 and 1982. He became "mysterious and sultry" already. At Motown 25 he had that determination. That's when he started with the shades indoors, the military garb with Adam Ant, etc. That all came about because of Thriller, because of his conscious choice.

And the salacious stories, the headlines, those started in 1984.

As an increasingly public figure, Michael Jackson has found himself subject to increasingly nasty rumors. Last week he took time out from his national tour to deny a batch of stories and throw down his glove in challenge to anyone who cared to print them in the future.
He said, among other things, that he was not a homosexual, had never had cosmetic surgery on his eyes or cheekbones, and did not take hormones to keep his voice high-pitched. Furthermore, he added, he plans to marry and have children some time. The 26-year-old pop singer also said his lawyers had been told to sue any publication that printed false rumors about him. Mr. Jackson said he was taking steps to halt the gossip because of ''the far-reaching trauma'' felt by those close to him.

Enough Is Enough https://www.nytimes.com/1984/09/09/weekinreview/enough-is-enough.html?smid=nytcore-android-share
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Thanks for sharing this! It certainly helps me unfold some mysteries.
 
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the rumours about michael planning to have gender reassignment surgery and marry actor/songwriter (‘never can say goodbye’) clifton davis, began around the time of ‘the wiz’ when he was still a teenager. the ones about him taking female hormones to maintain a high voice and gain softer features, came around ‘thriller’. going back even further, they claimed he was a castro as a child when he sang with his brothers.

the media has always gossiped and lied about him, like they do with most celebrities. that had nothing to do with the stories about the oxygen chamber and elephant man’s bones. in fact, that press conference in ‘84 only highlights that.

in 1984, very few people took those stories about michael seriously. yet he and his team threatened to sue publications that printed falsehoods about him.

why didn’t they follow through with that promise in 86/87, with the oxygen chamber and elephant man’s bones stories? they were far more damaging than the previous ones, which didn’t affect his career in the slightest.

michael and his team didn’t do anything because they were the ones who planted them. michael started to believe that all publicity was good publicity as long as people were talking. many of the jacksons feel that way, even today (see tito’s interview with ‘sway in the morning’). he thought he could use his power and money to control the media, and manipulate the public.

after the hospital which contained the elephant man’s bones, stated that the remains were not for sale, michael put in a real bid. only because he was told he couldn’t have them. his own mother katherine (according to her book) told manager frank dileo that he was making michael look like an idiot.

michael would constantly play games with the media for the rest of his life; having bubbles the chimpanzee conduct an interview with dick clark, and join michael for a press conference in which the two would drink from the same cup.
the ‘history’ teaser where he literally admitted on television that he enjoyed the controversy it caused ‘good. they fell into my trap’.
having karen faye pose as the ‘new mystery blonde’ that he was seen out with post his first divorce (as confirmed by her on her twitter).
being photographed in a wheelchair in ‘08 because he wanted the media to think he was ‘down and out’ before making his big comeback (a claim that was made in brother jermaine’s book). I could go on..

yet fans will still deny it all and make excuses, because they refuse to believe that michael sometimes lied. not everything was black and white. michael’s relationship with the media was more grey than he would have us believe. they (sometimes) used each other. it all started when motown told him to lie about his age as a child, and say diana ross discovered the jackson 5 when she didn’t.

I don’t think any of this makes michael a ‘bad’ person. I actually feel a great deal of sympathy for him💔he was trapped in an industry that he tried to survive in. he made a major mistake then tried to rectify it several times (the televised interviews and documentaries) only to make new ones on top of that. there was no going back after..

it’s a tragic, yet cautionary tale that we can learn from. placing michael on a pedestal only holds him to an unrealistic and unfair standard. I choose to celebrate the good, not the bad.
 
83magic said:
the rumours about michael planning to have gender reassignment surgery and marry actor/songwriter (‘never can say goodbye’) clifton davis, began around the time of ‘the wiz’ when he was still a teenager. the ones about him taking female hormones to maintain a high voice and gain softer features, came around ‘thriller’. going back even further, they claimed he was a castro as a child when he sang with his brothers.

the media has always gossiped and lied about him, like they do with most celebrities. that had nothing to do with the stories about the oxygen chamber and elephant man’s bones. in fact, that press conference in ‘84 only highlights that.

in 1984, very few people took those stories about michael seriously. yet he and his team threatened to sue publications that printed falsehoods about him.

why didn’t they follow through with that promise in 86/87, with the oxygen chamber and elephant man’s bones stories? they were far more damaging than the previous ones, which didn’t affect his career in the slightest.

michael and his team didn’t do anything because they were the ones who planted them. michael started to believe that all publicity was good publicity as long as people were talking. many of the jacksons feel that way, even today (see tito’s interview with ‘sway in the morning’). he thought he could use his power and money to control the media, and manipulate the public.

after the hospital which contained the elephant man’s bones, stated that the remains were not for sale, michael put in a real bid. only because he was told he couldn’t have them. his own mother katherine (according to her book) told manager frank dileo that he was making michael look like an idiot.

michael would constantly play games with the media for the rest of his life; having bubbles the chimpanzee conduct an interview with dick clark, and join michael for a press conference in which the two would drink from the same cup.
the ‘history’ teaser where he literally admitted on television that he enjoyed the controversy it caused ‘good. they fell into my trap’.
having karen faye pose as the ‘new mystery blonde’ that he was seen out with post his first divorce (as confirmed by her on her twitter).
being photographed in a wheelchair in ‘08 because he wanted the media to think he was ‘down and out’ before making his big comeback (a claim that was made in brother jermaine’s book). I could go on..

yet fans will still deny it all and make excuses, because they refuse to believe that michael sometimes lied. not everything was black and white. michael’s relationship with the media was more grey than he would have us believe. they (sometimes) used each other. it all started when motown told him to lie about his age as a child, and say diana ross discovered the jackson 5 when she didn’t.

I don’t think any of this makes michael a ‘bad’ person. I actually feel a great deal of sympathy for him💔he was trapped in an industry that he tried to survive in. he made a major mistake then tried to rectify it several times (the televised interviews and documentaries) only to make new ones on top of that. there was no going back after..

it’s a tragic, yet cautionary tale that we can learn from. placing michael on a pedestal only holds him to an unrealistic and unfair standard. I choose to celebrate the good, not the bad.
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I'm not gonna criticize you very much. But the paparazzi just don't care either way. You go for fame, they go for your heart. It doesn't matter how straight you play it, they will come after you.

Lying to me is something more, stakeful. They were not privy to his business, volunteered or not. He is not lying, he's making stuff up to confuse them. They are not people. They're a machine with cogs. You can't get away from that really.

But, yes, they did use each other. Or really, Michael thought he could use them. There's no controlling the propagation of news, and there's certainly no stopping the court of public opinion.

I do know most celebs would kill to have a story as basic as Elephant Man's bones. Even Michael's later controversies was due to his mistakes, on camera. No rumors, just taking what he said and did. Blanket incident, etc.

And no offense, but I feel like you saying celebrate the good and not the bad just means you stick to the 80s and that's it. Which is, fine, I guess, that's your prerogative.
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
That's not true and is just hyperbolic.

Brad never claimed he wrote the music and MJ just wrote lyrics to it. He said this is the song where he had his biggest contribution creatively, but he never claimed he wrote the music all alone.
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100: Brad Buxer Special – The MJCast

www.themjcast.com www.themjcast.com
Brad's own words on Stranger In Moscow start at ~50m mark.

Brad must have been robbed of millions of dollars in his 'relationship' with MJ. My attitude would be completely opposite to Brad's. Brad later brings up an example of his best friend eyeing his girlfriend. I would completely make a big deal of that too. I am a completely different person to Brad. I think Brad didn't want to sacrifice his Musical Director job and future collaborations / releases that he did with MJ, possibly released after his death. But I can only guess.

Brad says MJ didn't play any instruments but was good with percussion.
 
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I don't like the Invincible album. I have 3-4 songs on there that I like/can tolerate but I thought he phoned it in
 
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I dont want to hate on the album and its not all bad. But it just doesnt stack up to his other work.
 
Invincible Review by Stephen Thomas Erlewine

Let's get the clichéd bad joke out of the way to begin with: at the time Michael Jackson released Invincible in the fall of 2001, he hardly seemed "invincible" -- it was more wishful thinking than anything else, since he hadn't really had a genuine hit in ten years, and even that paled in comparison to his total domination of the '80s. That lack of commercial success, combined with a fading reputation as a trailblazer, a truly ugly public scandal, and swirling rumors about his diminishing finances, along with a huge wait between albums (by teaming his Dangerous follow-up with a hits collection, it wound up being overlooked, despite a gaudy publicity push), resulted in Jackson being deep down in the hole, needing to surge back out with a record that not only proved his talents, but his staying power. So, faced with a make-or-break record, what did Jackson do to save his career? What he did since Dangerous, take a turn toward the street and craft a hard-driving, hard-polished urban soul album, heavy on the dance numbers and sweetened by lugubrious ballads. It's a proven formula for commercial success, but it not only didn't push his music forward, it made his reach seem rather timid when compared to the wildly rich, all-encompassing musical vision of Thriller and Bad. Here, he's reined in by a desire to prove himself, so he keeps his focus sharp and narrow, essentially creating a sparkly, post-hip-hop update of Off the Wall. It's not as good as that sounds, because the infectious joy and layered craft of that masterpiece have been replaced with a dogged, near-maniacal desire to craft something hip enough for the clubs and melodic enough for mainstream radio, thereby confirming his self-proclaimed status as the King of Pop (a really terrible title, btw). Since he was exceptionally talented and smart enough to surround himself with first-rate collaborators, this does pay off on occasion, even when it feels a little too calculated or when it feels a little padded. Ultimately, the record runs too long, losing steam halfway through, as it turns to a series of rants about "Privacy" or a deadly stretch of uncomfortably treacly, sub-"Man in the Mirror" songs about "The Lost Children," or when he says that he can't change the world by himself on "Cry." Fortunately, Jackson was clever enough to front-load this record, loading the first seven songs with really good, edgy dance numbers -- even the opening "Unbreakable" isn't sunk by the creepy resurrection of Biggie Smalls -- and lovely ballads, highlighted by "Break of Dawn" and "Butterflies" with its Bacharach-styled horns. Even if these are too self-conscious and a little mechanical (which they are), they still have a spark and sound better than anything Jackson had done since Dangerous. That's not enough to make Invincible the comeback Jackson needed -- he really would have had to have an album that sounded free instead of constrained for that to work -- but it does offer a reminder that he could really craft good pop. If only he had been fueled, not constrained, by his obsessions, this could have been really interesting.

-AllMusic
 
Maybe I posted this in the wrong place but still, it's relevant. I think this is a good review.
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
Invincible Review by Stephen Thomas Erlewine

Let's get the clichéd bad joke out of the way to begin with: at the time Michael Jackson released Invincible in the fall of 2001, he hardly seemed "invincible" -- it was more wishful thinking than anything else, since he hadn't really had a genuine hit in ten years, and even that paled in comparison to his total domination of the '80s. That lack of commercial success, combined with a fading reputation as a trailblazer, a truly ugly public scandal, and swirling rumors about his diminishing finances, along with a huge wait between albums (by teaming his Dangerous follow-up with a hits collection, it wound up being overlooked, despite a gaudy publicity push), resulted in Jackson being deep down in the hole, needing to surge back out with a record that not only proved his talents, but his staying power. So, faced with a make-or-break record, what did Jackson do to save his career? What he did since Dangerous, take a turn toward the street and craft a hard-driving, hard-polished urban soul album, heavy on the dance numbers and sweetened by lugubrious ballads. It's a proven formula for commercial success, but it not only didn't push his music forward, it made his reach seem rather timid when compared to the wildly rich, all-encompassing musical vision of Thriller and Bad. Here, he's reined in by a desire to prove himself, so he keeps his focus sharp and narrow, essentially creating a sparkly, post-hip-hop update of Off the Wall. It's not as good as that sounds, because the infectious joy and layered craft of that masterpiece have been replaced with a dogged, near-maniacal desire to craft something hip enough for the clubs and melodic enough for mainstream radio, thereby confirming his self-proclaimed status as the King of Pop (a really terrible title, btw). Since he was exceptionally talented and smart enough to surround himself with first-rate collaborators, this does pay off on occasion, even when it feels a little too calculated or when it feels a little padded. Ultimately, the record runs too long, losing steam halfway through, as it turns to a series of rants about "Privacy" or a deadly stretch of uncomfortably treacly, sub-"Man in the Mirror" songs about "The Lost Children," or when he says that he can't change the world by himself on "Cry." Fortunately, Jackson was clever enough to front-load this record, loading the first seven songs with really good, edgy dance numbers -- even the opening "Unbreakable" isn't sunk by the creepy resurrection of Biggie Smalls -- and lovely ballads, highlighted by "Break of Dawn" and "Butterflies" with its Bacharach-styled horns. Even if these are too self-conscious and a little mechanical (which they are), they still have a spark and sound better than anything Jackson had done since Dangerous. That's not enough to make Invincible the comeback Jackson needed -- he really would have had to have an album that sounded free instead of constrained for that to work -- but it does offer a reminder that he could really craft good pop. If only he had been fueled, not constrained, by his obsessions, this could have been really interesting.

-AllMusic
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Badly written.
 
ChanceToDance said:
People are dropping the coldest takes here. Give me something REALLY heretic like "Girlfriend is better than Billie Jean and should've been the lead single for Thriller".
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2000 Watts over Thriller
He should be known for this song instead of Billie Jean. Ew.
 
Loved most things about him but HATED the crotch grabbing it was weird and overdone , sorry just saying. Everything else though perfect.
 
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