I think the family is giving Murray his defense

[ReneeM]

We don't know, we're only guessing if and what LAPD is going to charge murray with. And to say that Murray has no defense is not true. He has a very good defense that already makes this case complicated and not easy to win. That defense is called a medical license. He's going to say that he's is a doctor who simply made a mistake and lost a patient. It is not uncommon for doctors to make mistakes that results in the loss of patients lives. They are either sued for it or nothing happens. On top of that, the defense is going to say that he asked for it.

Now suppose the prosecution has evidence and intend to argue that MJ didn't ask for it? The defense has MJ's family, friends, media, ex employees and fans all indicating that MJ did ask for it. This screws with the the prosecutions case. This is why the Jacksons were asked to keep quiet about the case. Whats messed up is that family, friends, media and fans are possibly misled about the alleged drug use or the extent of it and could play a role in MJ not getting justice.

This is very true. I have a friend who is a dentist who killed a litte boy by giving him too much anesthetic. He still practices and didn't go to jail.

The problem that Murray will have is justifying the use of Propofol in a residential setting. Also, he was not trained or certified as an Anesthesiologist. He also performed CPR on the bed when he should have placed him on the floor. An argument can be made that this is negligence bordering on incompetence.

 

[babybugz1]

MJ had a chemical dependency – ie an addiction. We know that he became a person who needed to use an anesthesia to go to sleep each night, who went through the trouble to have someone with him to administer those drugs. When I was working in a mental health clinic, people would come to us Dr. Shopping all the time. They would pretend they are in pain or have uncontrolled depression in order to get a hold of pain medicine or depression medicine. Our job was to recognize when that was happening and typically, the patient would be off to the next doctor until they racked up enough meds to feed their addiction. If we ignored the signs and gave them drugs anyway, we could be in serious trouble. Dependency on anything, for whatever reason, denotes addiction. Let's not be in denial for MJ. That doesn't take away from the fact that he was a beautiful, wonderful soul - just shows he was human with vulnerability and he fell into a very unfortunate trap. I'd be much more upset with his family if they were in denial with him because then they would be culpable in his demise. I’m glad they tried to help and now I understand that they just didn’t know how much danger he was in. I don’t think Janet’s words last night compromised Dr. Murray’s prosecution at all.

My Thoughts Exactly

 

[Bo G]

Ramona... could I ask a favor... ix-nay on the the N references...

 

[Ramona122003]

MJ had a chemical dependency – ie an addiction. We know that he became a person who needed to use an anesthesia to go to sleep each night, who went through the trouble to have someone with him to administer those drugs. When I was working in a mental health clinic, people would come to us Dr. Shopping all the time. They would pretend they are in pain or have uncontrolled depression in order to get a hold of pain medicine or depression medicine. Our job was to recognize when that was happening and typically, the patient would be off to the next doctor until they racked up enough meds to feed their addiction. If we ignored the signs and gave them drugs anyway, we could be in serious trouble. Dependency on anything, for whatever reason, denotes addiction. Let's not be in denial for MJ. That doesn't take away from the fact that he was a beautiful, wonderful soul - just shows he was human with vulnerability and he fell into a very unfortunate trap. I'd be much more upset with his family if they were in denial with him because then they would be culpable in his demise. I’m glad they tried to help and now I understand that they just didn’t know how much danger he was in. I don’t think Janet’s words last night compromised Dr. Murray’s prosecution at all.

He was not doctor shopping. The LAPD checked all the medicines in other people names and they were all registerer under Michael's name.

Also, you cannot become depended on the drug Michael was taken. Doctors pretty much confirm that, so he had no chemical dependancy. There are alot of things that could had cause his sleep problems and it has nothing to do with drugs. He also had not other drug in his body besides what Murray gave him, so he was not talking anything else. Also, Michael had sleep problems all his life, so that is hardly anything new.

He may had problems in the past, but all evident shows no signs of addiction or dependancy.

 

[ginvid]

MJ had a chemical dependency – ie an addiction. We know that he became a person who needed to use an anesthesia to go to sleep each night, who went through the trouble to have someone with him to administer those drugs. When I was working in a mental health clinic, people would come to us Dr. Shopping all the time. They would pretend they are in pain or have uncontrolled depression in order to get a hold of pain medicine or depression medicine. Our job was to recognize when that was happening and typically, the patient would be off to the next doctor until they racked up enough meds to feed their addiction.

I think that makes a good point and is something the pro will have to tread softly on. Because, unlike people who pretend to be in pain, MJ porbably was very much in pain at least sometimes. So how does a doctor say no to someone who is suffering? Esp if he feels he can help. Someone mentioned Kevorkian. He used the defense that these people were suffering and in pain and they just were to the point that it was better to not be alive than to cont in that state. Something extreme like death became a viable option because of the severity of their pain.

With MJ, they may say the severity of his pain and of his sleep deprivation was so extreme that he had to turn to an alternative that was equally extreme to find relief. That the doctor's only concern was the pain of his patient and how to relieve him and that he was acting, although negligently, with nobility.

 

[hilliver]

I have always loved that family and I still do, but I disagree with their handling of this situation and I agree that everytime they go pubic about his alleged drug use they are handing Murrey his defence on a plate.

Of course they loved Michael but I see their words as a terrible betrayal, and at the risk of repeating myself why in gods name didn't they go public with this before it was too late. It seems everyone was more interested in keeping in his good books than taking drastic action that might have saved him, and risking his anger. I would rather have him alive and angry with me, than being in Forrest Lawn.

I have never been in their situation, and maybe nothing could have saved him from the inevitable outcome of overusing drugs, but at least last resort action would have us feeling that everything was done to try and save him.

He relied on doctors and enablers, if nothing else, they might have been scared off from helping him if the threat had been made by the family that they would go en masse to the media if he didn't get himself into rehab. They could have had our support, we did message books etc during the trial, maybe millions of pleading fans might have motivated him, or, drastic tho it sounds, they could have told Prince and Paris, could he really have ignored them pleading with him to get help?

They kept it quiet and now it is too late they are going public before the results of the investigation out what was really going on.

Why he took them is understandable with all the stress he had to deal with, and we would not have loved him less if we had known, but these doctors acted like pushers and suppliers to a vulnerable man because they wanted the money, and his employees were as bad.

Tough love is real love and sadley he didn't get it. Murrey should be hanging from a tree for what he did, but he is going to come out of this as the poor guy to tried to help but ended up with a tragic accident.

 

[Ramona122003]

I think that makes a good point and is something the pro will have to tread softly on. Because, unlike people who pretend to be in pain, MJ porbably was very much in pain at least sometimes. So how does a doctor say no to someone who is suffering? Esp if he feels he can help. Someone mentioned Kevorkian. He used the defense that these people were suffering and in pain and they just were to the point that it was better to not be alive than to cont in that state. Something extreme like death became a viable option because of the severity of their pain.

With MJ, they may say the severity of his pain and of his sleep deprivation was so extreme that he had to turn to an alternative that was equally extreme to find relief. That the doctor's only concern was the pain of his patient and how to relieve him and that he was acting, although negligently, with nobility.

Kevorkian still went to jail for several years, so it was not a very valid excuse.

Also, the doctor still should had known better. At the very least, he could had gotten someone who was actually train to give him the drug. He also could had taken him to a clinic for his sleep problems. This is not the same as given someone pain medication for pain if you are license to actually give the prescribing.

 

[Bo G]

My Thoughts Exactly

I hope folks will be allowed to state this impression here, if continued to be done respectfully, without being accused of wanting to harm MJ's rep or Murray's conviction. Both prosecution and defense will be preparing for the dependence question to arise, so it would be helpful here, IMO, if we could discuss the evidence openly and honestly.

 

[ginvid]

Kevorkian still went to jail for several years, so it was not a very valid excuse.

Also, the doctor still should had known better. At the very least, he could had gotten someone who was actually train to give him the drug. He also could had taken him to a clinic for his sleep problems. This is not the same as given someone pain medication for pain if you are license to actually give the prescribing.

I agree. He still went to jail, but it also effected how he was sentenced. I am not saying this absolves Murray of responsibility, I am saying it could be the difference between a slap on the hand and hard time. And we don't know what measures MJ had already taken with his sleep deprevation before. He may have tried clinics. Al least I can say, I don't know.So, information like that will make a difference as well.

 

[Ramona122003]

I agree. He still went to jail, but it also effected how he was sentenced. I am not saying this absolves Murray of responsibility, I am saying it could be the difference between a slap on the hand and hard time. And we don't know what measures MJ had already taken with his sleep deprevation before. He may have tried clinics. Al least I can say, I don't know.So, information like that will make a difference as well.

Kevorkian got a 10-25 years sentence, that is hardly light. Also he got early for good behavior, but he still did eight years, not a couple of months.

 

[ginvid]

Kevorkian got a 10-25 years sentence, that is hardly light. Also he got early for good behavior, but he still did eight years, not a couple of months.

I am not saying he did not have hard time, I am only saying as a defense of Murray. There were many who were simpathetic to Kevorkian, and are simpathetic still, esp if they have gone through the loss of a family member due to a slow and dibilitating disease. And if Murray uses that defense, it may appeal to a certain demographic who may identify with him and may want to give him a lighter sentence because of it.

I agree with your posts, I am just trying to find what may be considered by a defense team.

 

[snowhite]

so the reason why Michael MUST be an addict, despite the obvious autopsy results, is because he used Propofol to sleep is that your theory? even though he had only been using it for 6 weeks or less?

 

[ginvid]

I don't think anyone on this board believes he was an addict. that's not the impression I've gotten. Correct me if wrong. And, i can speak for myself, I don't think he was either.

 

[Sirena]

I am not saying he did not have hard time, I am only saying as a defense of Murray. There were many who were simpathetic to Kevorkian, and are simpathetic still, esp if they have gone through the loss of a family member due to a slow and dibilitating disease. And if Murray uses that defense, it may appeal to a certain demographic who may identify with him and may want to give him a lighter sentence because of it.

I agree with your posts, I am just trying to find what may be considered by a defense team.

Yup - and add the "the drug addict made me do it, feel sorry for me, I was just doing what I was told" - then add the media soundbytes from people who say MJ is an addict, and the defense has cast reasonable doubt on a 2nd degree murder charge - despite what the evidence tells.

I for one want Murray to do 15 to life imprisonment on a 2nd degree murder charge - the evidence is there to convict him. I don't want him to get a slap on the wrist just because he's a doctor & because the defense cast the "doctor was obeying his patient's demands" song and dance.

Book'em Danno!!!

 

[Sirena]

so the reason why Michael MUST be an addict, despite the obvious autopsy results, is because he used Propofol to sleep is that your theory? even though he had only been using it for 6 weeks or less?

That's what the media (and some of his family members) are stating.

And the defense will use this to their advantage.

 

[Sirena]

I hope folks will be allowed to state this impression here, if continued to be done respectfully, without being accused of wanting to harm MJ's rep or Murray's conviction. Both prosecution and defense will be preparing for the dependence question to arise, so it would be helpful here, IMO, if we could discuss the evidence openly and honestly.

Thank you for this & yes - we NEED to talk about it, even if we disagree on certain points here & there - it helps to discuss the case.

 

[Ramona122003]

I am not saying he did not have hard time, I am only saying as a defense of Murray. There were many who were simpathetic to Kevorkian, and are simpathetic still, esp if they have gone through the loss of a family member due to a slow and dibilitating disease. And if Murray uses that defense, it may appeal to a certain demographic who may identify with him and may want to give him a lighter sentence because of it.

I agree with your posts, I am just trying to find what may be considered by a defense team.

Well none of those people were on the jury. Also, Murray is hardly the same as Kevorkian. He gave drugs he was not train to give without the proper medical equipment. He then left the damn room for 45 minutes with a patient under the influence of multiple drugs. If he did this in a hospital, that would be enough cause for negligence.

Also, saying Michael asked for the drug is not an excuse because you are a doctor and the patient's care comes before you paycheck. We have Nurse Lee who said no and she's still alive and worked for Michael for several more months before she left. "I was just following orders", did not work for the Nazis and it will not work for a doctor.

And if the try to paint Michael as an out of control drug addict, the question still remains. Why didn't you get him help instead of given him drugs if he was so bad? Because you were afraid to lose you job? That makes you a glorified drug dealer. Unless he can prove he had a gun to his head, this defense will not hold. And, it also does not explain why he left the freaking room and try to cover the crime.

 

[Sirena]

Agree 100%.

I have always loved that family and I still do, but I disagree with their handling of this situation and I agree that everytime they go pubic about his alleged drug use they are handing Murrey his defence on a plate.

Of course they loved Michael but I see their words as a terrible betrayal, and at the risk of repeating myself why in gods name didn't they go public with this before it was too late. It seems everyone was more interested in keeping in his good books than taking drastic action that might have saved him, and risking his anger. I would rather have him alive and angry with me, than being in Forrest Lawn.

I have never been in their situation, and maybe nothing could have saved him from the inevitable outcome of overusing drugs, but at least last resort action would have us feeling that everything was done to try and save him.

He relied on doctors and enablers, if nothing else, they might have been scared off from helping him if the threat had been made by the family that they would go en masse to the media if he didn't get himself into rehab. They could have had our support, we did message books etc during the trial, maybe millions of pleading fans might have motivated him, or, drastic tho it sounds, they could have told Prince and Paris, could he really have ignored them pleading with him to get help?

They kept it quiet and now it is too late they are going public before the results of the investigation out what was really going on.

Why he took them is understandable with all the stress he had to deal with, and we would not have loved him less if we had known, but these doctors acted like pushers and suppliers to a vulnerable man because they wanted the money, and his employees were as bad.

Tough love is real love and sadley he didn't get it. Murrey should be hanging from a tree for what he did, but he is going to come out of this as the poor guy to tried to help but ended up with a tragic accident.

 

[babybugz1]

I hope folks will be allowed to state this impression here, if continued to be done respectfully, without being accused of wanting to harm MJ's rep or Murray's conviction. Both prosecution and defense will be preparing for the dependence question to arise, so it would be helpful here, IMO, if we could discuss the evidence openly and honestly.

Harm his rep.You saying I'm harming it? .I was agreeing with the poster , I don't know so much here but in other MJ fan communities i'm seeing fans call janet a liar which is out of line.That's her brother she knows him more than we would ever will , she said michael had a problem and some fans I guess don't want to believe that.It doesn't change my view On michael as a artist and as a person if he did.He lived a stressful life so what if he had a addiction problem he's not perfect.And i'm in no way defending murray's case that dummy deserve to be punish.But some fans are pissing me off with their views on janet's interview.

 

[Ramona122003]

I have always loved that family and I still do, but I disagree with their handling of this situation and I agree that everytime they go pubic about his alleged drug use they are handing Murrey his defence on a plate.

Of course they loved Michael but I see their words as a terrible betrayal, and at the risk of repeating myself why in gods name didn't they go public with this before it was too late. It seems everyone was more interested in keeping in his good books than taking drastic action that might have saved him, and risking his anger. I would rather have him alive and angry with me, than being in Forrest Lawn.

I have never been in their situation, and maybe nothing could have saved him from the inevitable outcome of overusing drugs, but at least last resort action would have us feeling that everything was done to try and save him.

He relied on doctors and enablers, if nothing else, they might have been scared off from helping him if the threat had been made by the family that they would go en masse to the media if he didn't get himself into rehab. They could have had our support, we did message books etc during the trial, maybe millions of pleading fans might have motivated him, or, drastic tho it sounds, they could have told Prince and Paris, could he really have ignored them pleading with him to get help?

They kept it quiet and now it is too late they are going public before the results of the investigation out what was really going on.

Why he took them is understandable with all the stress he had to deal with, and we would not have loved him less if we had known, but these doctors acted like pushers and suppliers to a vulnerable man because they wanted the money, and his employees were as bad.

Tough love is real love and sadley he didn't get it. Murrey should be hanging from a tree for what he did, but he is going to come out of this as the poor guy to tried to help but ended up with a tragic accident.

No offense to you, but Michael's drug habits was and still is, none of our business. Going to the press would hardly change Michael's mind, even if fans begged him. Because if he was an addict, that is how they work. If love can solve everything, all addicts would be cured. All it would had done is add fuel to the fire.

So, the family screaming to the press would had done nothing but annoy Michael. Most people would also may not have believe it, since they didn't think he went to rehab or had a drug problem in the 90s.

 

[Sirena]

And if the try to paint Michael as an out of control drug addict, the question still remains. Why didn't you get him help instead of given him drugs if he was so bad? Because you were afraid to lose you job? That makes you a glorified drug dealer. Unless he can prove he had a gun to his head, this defense will not hold. And, it also does not explain why he left the freaking room and try to cover the crime.

You're right, but when you have some family members stating that they tried to get MJ to rehab unsuccessfully and that he was in denial, then other family members/associates saying that MJ got anything he wanted and would cut you off if you didn't comply - the defense can cast reasonable doubt.

The defense doesn't have to convince 12 jurors, all they have to do is make only 1 doubt the evidence presented. Then they win the case, Murray gets a slap on the wrist and the world will wonder why when the evidence is clear that the defendant is guilty.

It happened with OJ, it happened with Robert Blake, both cases f*ck ups thanks to the LAPD and LA County DA office.

 

[farwest]

I am very confused by the drug addict thing Jackson family members kept bringing up.
I remember they asked for their own autopsy, so they should have their own "hard evidence", right? If that evidence does not support the drug addict theory, why do they keep going there? Or is there the possibility that the evidence they have actually support the drug addiction story?

 

[Pascal09]

There is no greater threat to MJ's legacy and reputation than his own family; and some wander why Branca & McClain (total strangers to some degree) were left in charge?


P.S: remember, this is the family (some) who claimed that Mj may have had heroin in his house when he die, according to the search warrant. This turned out to be false.

 

[Ramona122003]

You're right, but when you some family members stating that they tried to get MJ to rehab unsuccessful and that he was in denial, then other family members/associates saying that MJ got anything he wanted and would cut you off if you didn't comply - the defense can cast reasonable doubt.

The defense doesn't have to convince 12 jurors, all they have to do is make only 1 doubt the evidence presented. Then they win the case, Murray gets a slap on the wrist and the world will wonder why when the evidence is clear that the defendant is guilty.

It happened with OJ, it happened with Robert Blake, both cases f*ck ups thanks to the LAPD and LA County DA office.

OJ and Blank were bad cases to begin with, so they are not valid examples.

Also, he is a doctor, so even if the family tried and fail, how is that an excuse to still give him the drug in question and leave the room. If Murray was a real doctor he should had either gotten Michael help or left on his own. Losing you paycheck justicfies nothing, it just makes you a drug dealer.

So, what reasonable doubt are you talking about. If anything, the drug addict defense make Murray look worst since he come across as a drug dealer with a medical license. How is that suppose to make the jury feel sorry for him? Lee said no, why couldn't he?

 

[Bo G]

...I see their words as a terrible betrayal...

...why in gods name didn't they go public with this before it was too late.

Perhaps the answer to your second sentence is that they were too intimidated by how strongly some agree with your first sentence.

There's such a contradiction within your paragraph, here, and I see this everywhere...

 

[yaazgurl]

I hope folks will be allowed to state this impression here, if continued to be done respectfully, without being accused of wanting to harm MJ's rep or Murray's conviction. Both prosecution and defense will be preparing for the dependence question to arise, so it would be helpful here, IMO, if we could discuss the evidence openly and honestly.

There's no evidence that Michael was recently addicted to drugs.

 

[Ramona122003]

I am very confused by the drug addict thing Jackson family members kept bringing up.
I remember they asked for their own autopsy, so they should have their own "hard evidence", right? If that evidence does not support the drug addict theory, why do they keep going there? Or is there the possibility that the evidence they have actually support the drug addiction story?

Their autopsy does not have a tox report. Also, you notice that they never mention that second autopsy again after the results came out.

Janet did not say he was an addict, the narrater of the interview said that. She said he had a problem with drugs. Which did in a small part cause his death. It was Toy and Joe who went on and on about Michael being an addict and control by his staff.

 

[Bo G]

Harm his rep...? ...

No, you misunderstood -- I was SUPPORTING your opportunity to say this. (While not necessarily saying I agree). Others saying this are routinely accused of this here, and I was saying I hope that ISN'T said.

 

[Sirena]

OJ and Blank were bad cases to begin with, so they are not valid examples.

Also, he is a doctor, so even if the family tried and fail, how is that an excuse to still give him the drug in question and leave the room. If Murray was a real doctor he should had either gotten Michael help or left on his own. Losing you paycheck justicfies nothing, it just makes you a drug dealer.

So, what reasonable doubt are you talking about. If anything, the drug addict defense make Murray look worst since he come across as a drug dealer with a medical license. How is that suppose to make the jury feel sorry for him? Lee said no, why couldn't he?

Reasonable doubt in that Murray doesn't deserve a 2nd degree murder charge because he was a poor doctor desperate for money and afraid of being fired by his drug addict boss who demanded more & more propofol.

And this case IS a bad case - Janet & Latoya went in with moving trucks to remove items from the home before the LAPD went in to secure the scene. Security video is still missing. 1 million dollars in cash is missing. Millions worth in jewelry is missing.

The strongest evidence against Murray is the coroner's report - enough to give him life imprisonment if the DA is aggressive enough based on the amount of propofol and other drugs found in the report which goes above & beyond gross negligence.

 

[Pascal09]

Thanks to janet, TINI group and the media have been rearmed with the drug addiction nonesense.