is propofol a red herring?

More info on hair toxicology:
Hair sample
Hair is capable of recording medium to long-term or high dosage substance abuse. Chemicals in the bloodstream may be transferred to the growing hair and stored in the follicle, providing a rough timeline of drug intake events. Head hair grows at rate of approximately 1 to 1.5 cm a month, and so cross sections from different sections of the follicle can give estimates as to when a substance was ingested. Testing for drugs in hair is not standard throughout the population. The darker and coarser the hair the more drug that will be found in the hair. If two people consumed the same amount of drugs, the person with the darker and coarser hair will have more drug in their hair than the lighter haired person when tested. This raises issues of possible racial bias in substance tests with hair samples.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forensic_toxicology#Hair_sample

This is useful to know if we ever do see hair tox. results esp. if the results are given in any amount or just present or absent.

Another issue is that of amnesia something I haven't seen mentioned or if it has been, I've missed it.

The benzos and propofol both can cause amnesia of varying durations.

Memory impairment.
Benzodiazepines have long been known to cause amnesia, an effect which is utilised when the drugs are used as premedication before major surgery or for minor surgical procedures. Loss of memory for unpleasant events is a welcome effect in these circumstances. For this purpose, fairly large single doses are employed and a short-acting benzodiazepine (e.g. midazolam) may be given intravenously.

Oral doses of benzodiazepines in the dosage range used for insomnia or anxiety can also cause memory impairment. Acquisition of new information is deficient, partly because of lack of concentration and attention. In addition, the drugs cause a specific deficit in "episodic" memory, the remembering of recent events, the circumstances in which they occurred, and their sequence in time. By contrast, other memory functions (memory for words, ability to remember a telephone number for a few seconds, and recall of long-term memories) are not impaired. Impairment of episodic memory may occasionally lead to memory lapses or "blackouts". It is claimed that in some instances such memory lapses may be responsible for uncharacteristic behaviours such as shop-lifting.
http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzcha01.htm#12

Could this have contributed to his odd behavior when KO sent him home?

It has also been shown that during intermittent administration of propofol, subjects had no memory of being asked questions or performing a task, eg. to cough, when they woke up afterwards.

So where am I going with this? I'm not quite sure how relevant it is but it makes me wonder if these drugs caused any amnesia for Michael.

And if so, would it have affected him remembering what murray did to him each night?
And what would the implications be.

Michael well and truly was at the mercy of that person.
 
in answer to the questions. if u mean red herring interms of its an excuse for murder then no i dont believe that

yeah that is very intresting. it will certainly help us get to the truth and see if murray is lieing about the 6 week issue.although it could also help murray with some of his claims.the thing is can they tell by the hair samples how much had been taken. ie murray claims mj was an addict and the hair samples show drugs was taken for the previous 6 months. can it prove the amounts that were given cause just cause you may have been taking something for 6 months doesnt mean u were addicted.


to me there could be credence for that if lets say murray just had one vial of diprivan on him and it got used out of the blue. ie murray says to mj i have this i could always give you it if you really want to be knocked out. but he brought crap loads of the stuff starting around april after the meeting in march with adams. there was obviously a premeditation to it

Right, but Murray could have said that he was holding the medication there for whatever reason, they were in Murray's room right?

I'm just saying, there are so many possibilities with what little info we have, I for one don't believe Michael was a drug addict, I don't believe he would have given the Ok for this with or even with out his children in the house, and I definitely think something fishy happened....
 
Don't know. But, there is NO concrete proof or testimony, under oath, that Michael was given this before. . . even though there has been a lot of effort to make us THINK that he had been. Part of that "effort" was Nurse Lee's blabbering (and then where did she GO? Is she on the witness list, or not?)

Since it leaves the body quickly, do we really know? I think we do not. Not for sure. (Unless it would show up in hair analysis? But, we've not seen any hair analysis results.)

But, how does one explain the many cases of propofol Murray bought? Seriously? HOW?

We know Murray bought a lot, but we don't know how much he actually used. If this was murder then it's possible he bought a lot as a decoy. This whole thing just doesn't make sense to me. It's very difficult for me to believe that Michael actually agreed to receive propofol on a nightly basis from Murray. There's got to be more to this story.
 
We know Murray bought a lot, but we don't know how much he actually used. If this was murder then it's possible he bought a lot as a decoy. This whole thing just doesn't make sense to me. It's very difficult for me to believe that Michael actually agreed to receive propofol on a nightly basis from Murray. There's got to be more to this story.

I agree especially if he wasn't feeling well. The whole hot/cold thing should've been a warning that something was wrong. MJ should've fired Murray and went to the hospital. Sounds to me like Murray was poisening him. I just don't buy MJ agreeing to something that dangerous with someone who was not a specialist in the field. He had to see there was no equipment, no other life saving measures if something went wrong. I swear MJ should've had someone else in that room watching Murray
 
Right, but Murray could have said that he was holding the medication there for whatever reason, they were in Murray's room right?

not sure what u mean. murray bought the stuff in nevada and had it shipped to his girlfirends house where it was kept.he lied to the pharmacist in nevada saying it was being sent to one of his offices in L.A (that didnt excist) not his g.friends house.
 
It would be interesting to hear from Murray what exactly he expected to achieve with propofol. It doesn't give restful sleep....it's just an anaesthetic. So if MJ was suffering with insomnia night after night, exhausted after rehearsals/concerts, how could he get any rest with propofol? How could using propofol possibly be a viable solution to the problem when MJ had 50 concert dates to get through? The hard work hadn't even started. How do you obtain propofol in the UK? Can you imagine AEG's liability once Murray's contract had been signed and they were over in the UK and Murray was still using propofol? It would be very interesting to know if AEG knew what Murray was doing.....
 
not sure what u mean. murray bought the stuff in nevada and had it shipped to his girlfirends house where it was kept.he lied to the pharmacist in nevada saying it was being sent to one of his offices in L.A (that didnt excist) not his g.friends house.


I'm just saying if the thought process for this thread is that it is possible that Michael never asked for the drug or ever used the drug (outside of a hospital) then it is possible that Murray gave it to Michael with out Michael knowing. Just because there was a lot of it in the house doesn't have to mean that Michael was using it night after night, or that he even knew it was there or what it was.

I really wish someone else was there, obviously for a different out come, but also because I have a feeling we will never know the truth.

I posted in this thread because I have had this thought myself, that Micheal may have used an IV to hydrate himself after long rehearsals and maybe even used some drugs to help him sleep, but I just have that gut feeling that he had never used propofol, and didn't ask for it. I feel like it is a real possibility that Murray had him knocked out on other meds and then gave him the propofol with out Michael ever knowing.
 
It would be interesting to hear from Murray what exactly he expected to achieve with propofol. It doesn't give restful sleep....it's just an anaesthetic. So if MJ was suffering with insomnia night after night, exhausted after rehearsals/concerts, how could he get any rest with propofol? How could using propofol possibly be a viable solution to the problem when MJ had 50 concert dates to get through? The hard work hadn't even started. How do you obtain propofol in the UK? Can you imagine AEG's liability once Murray's contract had been signed and they were over in the UK and Murray was still using propofol? It would be very interesting to know if AEG knew what Murray was doing.....


I doubt if he testifies, but I would like to know as well.. He knows good and well propofol is not a drug for sleep. He knows it's an anesthetic and that it basically puts the person out/ mini coma.. There is no REM sleep so MJ was not rested at all. Murray is a rogue doctor and he needs to be jailed for what he did to MJ
 
I doubt if he testifies, but I would like to know as well.. He knows good and well propofol is not a drug for sleep. He knows it's an anesthetic and that it basically puts the person out/ mini coma.. There is no REM sleep so MJ was not rested at all. Murray is a rogue doctor and he needs to be jailed for what he did to MJ
Well said. I thank you. :agree:
 
I doubt if he testifies, but I would like to know as well.. He knows good and well propofol is not a drug for sleep. He knows it's an anesthetic and that it basically puts the person out/ mini coma.. There is no REM sleep so MJ was not rested at all. Murray is a rogue doctor and he needs to be jailed for what he did to MJ

I don't think he'll take the stand either. He has too much explaining to do to open himself up that way.
 
I'm just saying if the thought process for this thread is that it is possible that Michael never asked for the drug or ever used the drug (outside of a hospital) then it is possible that Murray gave it to Michael with out Michael knowing. Just because there was a lot of it in the house doesn't have to mean that Michael was using it night after night, or that he even knew it was there or what it was.

I really wish someone else was there, obviously for a different out come, but also because I have a feeling we will never know the truth.

I posted in this thread because I have had this thought myself, that Micheal may have used an IV to hydrate himself after long rehearsals and maybe even used some drugs to help him sleep, but I just have that gut feeling that he had never used propofol, and didn't ask for it. I feel like it is a real possibility that Murray had him knocked out on other meds and then gave him the propofol with out Michael ever knowing.

I think that is entirely possible, and that lying is an epidemic. I will not discuss "conspiracy theories" here, but I DO think that there is much more than would seem obvious. . . . .
 
Hi everyone
I am basically asking with this thread if Michael knew if he was being given the propofol. I really do have my doubts. We will see in the coming months but I think there is alot more to all this than meets the eye.
 
Hi everyone
I am basically asking with this thread if Michael knew if he was being given the propofol. I really do have my doubts. We will see in the coming months but I think there is alot more to all this than meets the eye.

Right. Pretty much, all we've heard from is the defense. There are things we are urged to take as fact, when they might not be facts, at all?

So, what do we HAVE? We have the autopsy report, the police interviews of Murray, the search-warrants, and the testimonies of the pre-trial hearing. Randy Phillips, Frank DiLeo, and Tohme Tohme have all given interviews (can be found on Youtube). But, they have not testified under oath, nor have the Follower Fans who gave Michael letters on the night that he died. There is also Cheryln Lee, who was the first one to mention propofol on any media. We don't really know if she will be called as a witness. Do we?

We know that Murray has consistently LIED, and we know that he tried to cover up evidence. I don't see how we can believe anything he says. Clearly, he lied about "no working phones," and he probably lied about everything else. The truth will not come from him.

I am not taking as "fact" ANYTHING that Cheryln Lee said. I'm also not taking as fact that phone call when Michael supposedly described unusual symptoms (hot on one side of his body, and cold on the other.) We really don't know if that call ever really happened, do we? Nurse Lee popped up unexpectedly, was all-over-the-place saying, "propofol! Propofol!" and making it seem like Michael was SEEKING this drug. That sounds very much like a defense-strategy.

But the question, did Michael KNOW he was being given propofol? We don't really KNOW! It seems reasonable to assume that Michael WAS being given this drug -- Murray had ordered cases of it. If Michael was knocked out on the benzos, and THEN given the propofol by drip to maintain sleep, he might not have known exactly what he was being given? There is also the factor that propofol leaves the body quickly and if authorities didn't know to look for it, it might not have been detected. At first it was widely assumed that Michael had over-dosed on narcotics. But, that was not the case. The defense knew that the propofol had to be addressed -- Murray was unable to conceal it at the scene. So, then Nurse Lee pops up and delivers the message that "Michael was seeking propofol." That has always sounded fishy to me.

And of course, we have various members of the Jackson family, who say "Michael was murdered!" but then produce not one scrap of evidence to back this up. A murder accusation can't be based on "a hunch."

What I'm hoping for now is some sort of wild-card, someone to come forward who KNOWS, and can make sense out of all of this?
 
Hi everyone
I am basically asking with this thread if Michael knew if he was being given the propofol. I really do have my doubts. We will see in the coming months but I think there is alot more to all this than meets the eye.

ok. my opinion is yes he knew. based on the meetings with adams in march and the reports of previous use in the past
 
For which I give him a lot of credit. I believe he claimed doctor patient confidentiality. Something Lee and Klein don't know about.
Of course he'd keep his mouth shoutm he's being accused of giving Michael propofol in the past and michael died from propofol and he doesn't want to egt caught up in this mess. He is probably the doctor who introduced the idea of using propofol for sleep to Micahel or supported it. At least he had the proper equipment and when he knocked Michael out he brought him back.
 
We really don't know if that call ever really happened, do we?
The bodyguards have not contradicted her that we know. Lee also said that to the police and mentioned MJ's personal assistant.
That sounds very much like a defense-strategy.
Murray had accused her of giving propofol to Michael. It is mentioned in the Affidavit. I think she was self-defending.
But the question, did Michael KNOW he was being given propofol?
We don't know, but we can guess he didn't know the way he was being given it.
 
yeah Murray saying that he 'believed' Lee gave MJ a cocktail using propofol is just insane.. If he wasn't for sure what she gave him, then why the hell didn't he call her and ask? Murray did absolutely no background check on MJ's medical history. He didn't even call any of his former doctors to find out if he had health issues period. Murray obviously didn't care about MJ. He only cared about the money
 
You know what I think is a red herring,
  • the so -called "broken Syringe"
  • the then the witch hunt begins on the theory of MJ's finger prints being on it ...
  • that MJ is broke theory and hence the need to sleep to fulfill TII tour...
  • that he self injected himself theory...
nothing but decoys to steer you off course trying to sully the facts of the case.
The autopsy reports and evidence are key. The jury needs to differentiate what is side show, smoke and mirrors. Nothing else matters.
 
Well I can tell you from own experience that Propofol needs to be taken with care. I've had surgery 2 weeks ago and was put under anasetic with Propofol. 1,5 days later I got very very sick and was rushed back to hospital. I apparentely have a very rare allergic reaction to propofol. It not only makes me sleep a lot longer then other people, it drops my blood pressure and it also makes me very sick (2nd time this happened).

So Murray sure is an idiot to have adminstered this unneedingly and in a home setting.
 
And accounts of this kind are making one conclude that he just couldn't have been administered propofol to daily. There's just no way, he couldn't have been there singing and dancing and sweating and creating and directing afterwards. No. ..
 
^ Sadly, that doesn't even matter with the charges murray is facing....all IM has to do is prove murray was negligent in doctoring Michael that night.

That's why some don't want murder charges, because with murder, there is no choice but to dig deeper.
 
[*]the so -called "broken Syringe"

Maybe I'm just stupid and don't remember things correctly, but don't I remember one of the EMT's saying (probably at the preliminary hearing?) that Murray broke one needle/syringe in front of them?
 
According to the vindicatemj blogger, Murray ordered a total of 15,500 cc of propofol covering 8 weeks, which is nearly 4 gallons, with a mere 12 unopened vials left. It is said to be enough to drop an elephant several times over. And if that is compared to what her small hospital uses for 35 patients a week in the O.R, using varying amounts of propofol per patient, the hospital only uses less than 1000 cc for all 35 patients combined.
 
I do believe Murray was giving Propofol to Michael and it was happening for a while. Murray's reaction suggests just that. I mean, the man was on the phone chatting calmly with his girlfriend, like nothing different was happening. His reaction when he found out that Michael was not breathing. Instead of calling 911, he tried to hide the evidence of the use of the drug, collecting all the bottles he had at home. He got desperate and tried to perform CPR on Michael, in bed, even forgetting it should be done on a hard surface. When not successful, he called 911. If it was the first time he was using Propofol, he would be watching Michael, checking on him to see if everything was ok. It's a human reaction. If we do something successfully for several times, we do feel at easy and not worried anymore and usually not pay attention enough to details that should be more carefully checked. It's how accidents that could be avoided happen. I have a feeling it's what happened that day Michael died.

Michael was aware, it's something I have no doubt. No one allows someone else to inject something in your body without asking what kind the drug the doctor is injecting in you. It does not make sense to think Michael didn't know Murray was using Propofol to make him sleep, esp considering that his sleeping problems were not recent and probably he had already taken other sleeping pills and no sleeping pill work like Propofol. Propofol makes someone sleep in a matter of seconds. It's not possible he didn't ask Murray about it.
 
^ But, then how do u explain no proper equipment being used? No monitoring equipment to make sure nothing like death would happen! Why would MJ let Murray or any doctor for that matter do this to him for "a while" like u said and not make sure he was properly looked after!? To me that doesn't make sense!

Especially, after hearing what Dr, Treacy had to say about that and how he believes MJ wouldn't do that!
 
Poster is the same as larry.ignore button is very handy
 
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