Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins & Bush /Update Controversy surrounding autographs

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Michael gave 1 (one) of the Thriller jackets to Bush and Tomkins. The other one (one of two) is still owned by Michael = the estate.
The estate allowed Thriller jacket to be displayed on Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland, Ohio.
Michael never gifted both of them to Bush, just one which he sold.

A little correction: What Estate owns is Thriller Zombie Jacket

So there aren't two of the same jacket exactly. there was the original jacket and the one torn up for the zombie part. Bush had and sold the Regular Thriller Jacket, Estate has the Zombie Thriller Jacket

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

double post

 

[Petrarose]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Karen Faye wrote on her twitter that MJ asked MLB and Tomkins to keep the clothes so they later could go in a museum. Karen was upset cus MLB were going against MJs wishes and he had stopped communicating with her over the issue.

Up to anyone if u wanna trust Karen

True Karen's words are not a good source, but based on this unusual situation it makes me go "hmmmmmmm" and think maybe that is why Bush finally agreed to give some to the estate. I mean who gives one person over 100 items just to be nice. Bush obviously has a good place to store things.

About the Jacksons input: They want to keep the pieces Bush gave to the estate private, but these items were to be sold and therefore were in public view. Why now when it goes to the estate it has to be private. Why is the family involved here? What does the family have to do with the estate and what it owns?

 

[Ashtanga]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

*big sigh*

So precious! :heart:

 

[Bubs]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

A little correction: What Estate owns is Thriller Zombie Jacket

So there aren't two of the same jacket exactly. there was the original jacket and the one torn up for the zombie part. Bush had and sold the Regular Thriller Jacket, Estate has the Zombie Thriller Jacket

But those two looked exactly the same?
To me Thriller jacket is the one seen in the video I don't care if it's ripped or shredded, as long as there is at least one of them saved for the future MJ museum.

 

[Bubs]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Well given that the items on display have been signed by Michael to Bush, it's obvious that they were gifted to Bush. As for why? Michael was a nice guy, and once his performance outfits had fulfilled their purpose, he wasn't very precious about them. He wasn't precious about the past in general, so awards and such were never on display at Neverland. Michael was all about moving forward and not getting stuck in past glories, so it does make sense that his clothing would befall that same principle.

Besides, where has all this talk of a museum arose from? I've yet to see a single article, video or source that corroborates these claims that Michael wanted a museum and gave these clothing to Bush for safe-keeping (well, the signatures on the clothing along with the messages to Bush on them betray that notion anyway, but still).

I slightly disagree with Michael wasn't being precious about past, because he did save some stuff that was important to him and he knew value of his stuff.
Have you read Michael Jackson's lawsuit against Julien's auction house?
See: http://www.originalprop.com/blog/wp...t-california-lawsuit-filing-march-04-2009.pdf
Page 3 and point 12. Obviously he had his awards, the ones his wished to keep in Neverland, perhaps not in display but somewhere there anyway.


I personally don't feel ill towards Bush for selling his stuff, it's his right and it makes sense that someone else that buys them, will have a space and will look after them so they don't degrade. I only wanted the most iconic concert costumes saved from auction, and it seems that my dream came thru:clapping:

Maybe some fans are mistaken that Michael wanted these costumes that Bush had to put in to museum. I would think MJ wanted the ones he kept in Neverland to be displayed in museum, not the ones he gifted away?

 

[Bubs]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Does Bush himself decide which most iconic costumes he gifts to estate, or does he asks the estates or family opinion? What he thinks are most iconic costumes is not necessary same as what fans considering most iconic.

At least these ones should be saved in my opinion:

and Smooth Criminal costume and few others

 

[speechlesslove4michael]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

^PDF version can be downloaded on the Juliens website.

What's the link for it?

 

[Bubs]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Here is the link to catalogue
http://www.juliensauctions.com/images/auctions/2012/tompkins-and-bush/flipbook/icatalog.html

 

[Memefan]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

this should be a lesson to every single fan really (myself included), to stop defending nonsense.

I am glad many fans chose to put Michael Jackson's legacy above others' greed & their own curiosity, and condemned this fuckery.

I still don't believe he was gifted EVERYTHING.... The love of money is a powerful disease. We've seen it time & time again with people who were close to MJ.

That being said, I thank the estate for intervening in whatever capacity (we may never know, because ppl are about saving face not the truth) .... I sure don't think MB woke up yesterday & came to his senses about how wrong this was.

 

[Bonnie Blue]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

^ I agree with memefan. The estate stay classy, but reading between the lines of their statement does raise some questions.

I felt bush was wrong to sell all the items in his possession, even a signed ironed board, with only an uspecified amount going to his choice of charities. The value of those items is 99.9% down to mj, not to his workmanship - he's not a galliano or lagerfield, and he had already been paid for his work. The very least he could have done was to offer the estate first refusal on some of the costumes right from the get go. Seems he has finally decided to do just this, so well done to the fans who kicked up a fuss and to the estate.

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

About the Jacksons input: They want to keep the pieces Bush gave to the estate private, but these items were to be sold and therefore were in public view. Why now when it goes to the estate it has to be private. Why is the family involved here? What does the family have to do with the estate and what it owns?

I don't know why family is involved or made any request but it won't stay private. That was honestly a not smart answer. You know why it won't stay private? Because Julien's have published the catalog and anything they pull from the auction will be shown at the end results and /or the website - unless of course Bush had stuff he didn't put up for sale and those are the stuff he's giving to the Estate. But like I said , if they are pulling stuff from this auction, it'll be obvious in time.

 

[myosotis]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

I don't know why family is involved or made any request but it won't stay private. That was honestly a not smart answer. You know why it won't stay private? Because Julien's have published the catalog and anything they pull from the auction will be shown at the end results and /or the website - unless of course Bush had stuff he didn't put up for sale and those are the stuff he's giving to the Estate. But like I said , if they are pulling stuff from this auction, it'll be obvious in time.

That's very true.....but what I don't understand is that bidding is taking place online now. Many items already have bids on them, although a few of the most expensive items (starting bids 25k upwards) don't have bids as yet. I seem to recall that there were problems with the April 09 auction when people had pre- bid and then the auction was cancelled. Someone who had bid for lots of Neverland garden statues tried to take Juliens to court. So what happens if someone bids on one of the 'items to be gifted' now? Presumably their bid will have to be cancelled? (Or will J's just quietly let them know that the item is no longer available?).

edit: Link to earlier thread about cancelled 2009 auction
http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...ed-MJ-Auction-moves-forward?highlight=auction

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

That's very true.....but what I don't understand is that bidding is taking place online now. Many items already have bids on them, although a few of the most expensive items (starting bids 25k upwards) don't have bids as yet. I seem to recall that there were problems with the April 09 auction when people had pre- bid and then the auction was cancelled. Someone who had bid for lots of Neverland garden statues tried to take Juliens to court. So what happens if someone bids on one of the 'items to be gifted' now? Presumably their bid will have to be cancelled? (Or will J's just quietly let them know that the item is no longer available?).

yeah you are right about that but actually Julien's is in a good place as they had won that lawsuit. (estate had settled without going to the lawsuit). In other words I think they can now pull any item from any auction and not face a lawsuit due to the win they had in the older lawsuit.

 

[Bonnie Blue]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

That's very true.....but what I don't understand is that bidding is taking place online now. Many items already have bids on them.

Yes, good point. It's all really odd. It's just so late in the day for this to happen with the catalogues just going up online - maybe that alerted the estate as to just how much bush was selling.

I haven't seen the costumes, but got the impression from jesta that they were all marked in black pen, to bush from mj so proving ownership. But bush now says in his facebook that just 'some of them were personalised and gifted to me' as if he is now rowing back from his initial claims.

Re those jackson 5 costumes - they all appear under the heading bush and tompkins collection. There seems to be another auction on the same day of mj stuff not labelled as belonging to the bush and tompkins collection, so it does appear that those j5 costumes are owned by bush as well.

At least these ones should be saved in my opinion:

Like your choices! But i remember the silver bad tour outfit in the 02 exhibition in 09 so at least one will be with the estate. I do like that military type long coat that mj wore on that annie lebovitz photo shoot.

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

^^

Bush in her book writes that there was at least two copies of the concert outfits. So it's quite possible that Estate might already have one copy and Bush having the other. I think the rare one of a kind jackets are the ones to take.

 

[jamba]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

If Michael gave me a gift that means it is mine to do with as I wish. I could keep it, sell it or give it way because it is mine to do with as I wish. (With Michael's blessing) Regardless of how other wish to judge Michael's GIFT. They may very well have been payment for services or just generosity to those he loved and were loyal to him. We just don't know.

The Neverland Auction that Michael Stopped was his personal possessions which he didn't sign or give way. They are now in the possession of his Estate. But he did give many others items away to others as gifts or to charities to auction off and that shouldn't be judged by anyone. These gifted items were not items Michael earmarked for the Estate or his children. He gave them away.So to say his gifts should be returned is going against MJ's heart and intentions. He even signed them away to make sure they wouldn't be questioned. Michael wasn't selfish nor do i think he expected his gifts to be returned or place any conditions on them. So why do other feel they have the right to put conditions on Michael's gifts. We don't have that right Period. We dont

I find it very disturbing and wrong to place such harsh judgment on MLB and his character based on speculation over Michael's intentions for items that he clearly gave away. If he gifted it in writing as we can see he did then we shouldn't question or place judgment on those who received these gifts. Or what they chose to do with them. We don't really know the circumstances and could be attacking and hurting someone dear to MJ unjustly. So we should be careful in how we judge these matters. And while everyone is welcome to an opinion. Lets not forget it is just that. Some are replying like the opinions being tossed around about this in the fanbase are Facts. They are not.

Any way Im glad MLB decided to generously gift some of the more iconic costumes to Michael's estate. He certainly didnt have to. If the estate felt these items didnt belong to Bush they would have required Bush to return them. They did not. The fact Branca wrote the forward to MLB book shows he respects him. he hasnt done that for others.

So he does have the Estates blessing. Just maybe they know something we dont... Ya think

Sure it fine for us to question and be concerned (we should be) but lets not speculate to much or be too harsh when it comes to judging someones motive or character. Ive seen some terrible nasy things bein stated about him that are just mean spirted. Myself I find it scary for others to do that In Michael's name. Or at all to Anyone. We just don't know all the circumstances and we are much to quick to judge someones motives and intentions without knowing all the facts or their reasons. We could be hurting them unjustly. Just another perspective given in this thread. Mine .. I'm just concerned. but no one has to agree with me. Everyone is welcome to their own view.

I agree we should not be harsh or too quick to judge, and it's true we don't know all the circumstances. However, that said, we have to look forward here to Michael's legacy and what needs to be preserved. It's only been 3 years since he passed, and the time to preserve is now, not later, before things get dispersed, lost, damaged, etc. I am hoping that Michael Jackson is going to be recognized more and more for his enormous contribution, and over time, that his legacy will get the attention and importance it is due!!!

For that reason, regardless of what Michael intended (maybe he wasn't thinking about it even, how do we know? He was so preoccupied with all the horrible allegations), and I don't think we know for sure what he intended anyway as far as his legacy except for the fact that he put his soul into his art, I still think preservation for history is so important, including of key costumes worn, and I am glad that it seems that Michael Bush and the Estate also recognize this. And IMO saying he gave stuff away, so people have the right to sell whatever doesn't consider the legacy issue. Yes, they may have the right--but why exercise that right if you know that the legacy needs preserving for all time? If Michael was generous, and he was, others can do the same, can't they? Yes, we can't demand they be generous, but we can ask it and honor them when they are generous.

 

[Annita]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

In the last Estate-accounting they mention they have items in storages with a worth about 60 Mio. and storages-cost for this items about 1 Mio. So I think the Estate has enough stuff for a museum. But it`s great they get some of the iconic items from the Bush-collection and it will not be sold.

 

[myosotis]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Apologies, I forgot to include the quote from Ivy:

yeah you are right about that but actually Julien's is in a good place as they had won that lawsuit. (estate had settled without going to the lawsuit). In other words I think they can now pull any item from any auction and not face a lawsuit due to the win they had in the older lawsuit.

The plaintiff did get to keep (buy) a lot of the items he bid for though. So if a very wealthy and litigious bidder comes along, they could maybe make this a precedent for getting at least some of the items they bid on, if they guess correctly at the 'gifted' items?

 

[ivy]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

to me the most important and iconic pieces are

648 - whitehouse jacket
720- pepsi jacket (there's two of them)
724- military costume
745 LA gear jacket (perhaps)
769 academy awards jacket
835 tabloid jacket (perhaps)
858 V8 jacket
931 history teaser (there are two of them)
950-953-954 scream outfit
955 - 956 custom jackets
983 awards ceremony jacket

the following are clearly said to be at least 2-3 copies. some of them might also be relevant if estate already doesn't have a copy

675-676 - bad tour costume
695 - 704 bad tour thriller jackets
bad tour jumpsuits
740 - bad tour jackets (mentions there were 4 copies)
865 dangerous tour jacket
877 dangerous tour costume
883 dangerous thriller jacket
904 dangerous beat it jacket
958 history beat it
979 history costume

I think Estate probably has enough gloves, fedoras, shoes and CTE shirts.


edited to add

I checked the cancelled 2009 auction to see what they got back from juliens and now at the possession of Estate

- bad tour bodysuit (gray top)
- dangerous tour bodysuit
- history tour costume
- dangerous tour jacket
- dangerous tour jumpsuits
- 4 CTE shirts

 

[jamba]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

In the last Estate-accounting they mention they have items in storages with a worth about 60 Mio. and storages-cost for this items about 1 Mio. So I think the Estate has enough stuff for a museum. But it`s great they get some of the iconic items from the Bush-collection and it will not be sold.

Maybe this is all the NL stuff from the cancelled Julian's auction? I wonder where the art collection is or what the status of that is, not to mention the 20,000 books Michael had. The Estate sure has their hands full with all this. I agree they have a lot of Michael's possessions from NL and some of them will be preserved. I am still hoping one day NL will be restored to the way it used to be, but maybe that's not going to happen. The beautiful gates of NL for sure need to be preserved. I guess at some point the Estate has to get into this, hire preservation experts, etc. and figure it all out about where this museum will be.

 

[myosotis]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

In the last Estate-accounting they mention they have items in storages with a worth about 60 Mio. and storages-cost for this items about 1 Mio. So I think the Estate has enough stuff for a museum. But it`s great they get some of the iconic items from the Bush-collection and it will not be sold.

I'll offer to store some of the 'iconic' items for free

 

[Bonnie Blue]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Maybe this is all the NL stuff from the cancelled Julian's auction?

I remember reading, i think from the 09 julian's lawsuit, that when colony capital bought the loan on neverland, they demanded that it was emptied by mj of all his stuff, and it was actually julians who was employed by thome to do this - to transfer everythng to storage and then, depending on who you believe, sell anything they wanted to or to just sell things on prior approval from mj. So julian's was in charge of storage of all mj's stuff, at least from autumn 08 - march 09.

I wonder where the art collection is or what the status of that is, not to mention the 20,000 books Michael had. The Estate sure has their hands full with all this. I agree they have a lot of Michael's possessions from NL and some of them will be preserved. I am still hoping one day NL will be restored to the way it used to be, but maybe that's not going to happen. The beautiful gates of NL for sure need to be preserved. I guess at some point the Estate has to get into this, hire preservation experts, etc. and figure it all out about where this museum will be.

I remember the neverland gates being at the o2 exhibtion so they're around. I'd be interested in knowing where that oscar for gone with the wind is, it cost mj $1.5m. We need to check it doesn't show up on ebay, lol.

 

[mthalen]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Karen Faye is full of it sometimes I think.
Most of these items were signed "To BUSH", and they were from various times during Michaels career. The way I see it MJ just gave him the items as a gift.
I heard from fans Michael signed literally stacks of photos for them, so why wouldnt he sign and gift things to his friend? I dont believe for a second MJ wanted Bush to safekeep these items for a museum, otherwise he wouldnt have signed them all: MJs been to enough museums himself to know you basically ruin the item if you sign it the way he did (huge) and you fully fuck it up if you dedicate it to someone...
I am glad the estate gets to have some items, but wondering when they will ever put them on display.
Maybe they can put them all in Vegas at the new cirque du soleil show and make that a permanent museum?

 

[Petrarose]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

this should be a lesson to every single fan really (myself included), to stop defending nonsense.

I am glad many fans chose to put Michael Jackson's legacy above others' greed & their own curiosity, and condemned this fuckery.

I still don't believe he was gifted EVERYTHING.... The love of money is a powerful disease. We've seen it time & time again with people who were close to MJ.

That being said, I thank the estate for intervening in whatever capacity (we may never know, because ppl are about saving face not the truth) .... I sure don't think MB woke up yesterday & came to his senses about how wrong this was.

I agree with you^^. Sometimes when people meet those who worked or met Michael, they begin to have a blind trust of these people and believe everything they say. Like you I believe the estate stepped in because if Bush had intended to do this from the get go, he would have made such a statement when he introduced his book idea.

Bonnie if on his facebook Bush is saying only some were signed tohim, how is he able to auction the rest of Michael's items? This is like the phone case and Lisa letter where people get their hands on Michael's property, claim ownership, then have them auctioned. Is it possible that Michael left a lot of his costumes in Bush's business premises and Bush claimed them after Michael's death. Or, when changing Michael during tours, did Bush simple keep the clothes?

 

[xthunderx2]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

to me the most important and iconic pieces are

648 - whitehouse jacket
720- pepsi jacket (there's two of them)
724- military costume
745 LA gear jacket (perhaps)
769 academy awards jacket
835 tabloid jacket (perhaps)
858 V8 jacket
931 history teaser (there are two of them)
950-953-954 scream outfit
955 - 956 custom jackets
983 awards ceremony jacket

the following are clearly said to be at least 2-3 copies. some of them might also be relevant if estate already doesn't have a copy

675-676 - bad tour costume
695 - 704 bad tour thriller jackets
bad tour jumpsuits
740 - bad tour jackets (mentions there were 4 copies)
865 dangerous tour jacket
877 dangerous tour costume
883 dangerous thriller jacket
904 dangerous beat it jacket
958 history beat it
979 history costume

I think Estate probably has enough gloves, fedoras, shoes and CTE shirts.


edited to add

I checked the cancelled 2009 auction to see what they got back from juliens and now at the possession of Estate

- bad tour bodysuit (gray top)
- dangerous tour bodysuit
- history tour costume
- dangerous tour jacket
- dangerous tour jumpsuits
- 4 CTE shirts

so they tried selling the History Tour Costume in 2009 too..imo..THAT costume is a HUGE part of Michael. Its definitely Iconic. Stop and ask yourself this question. What is the first thing a MJ fan..(ok maybe female fans..lol) thinks about when asked What is your favorite MJ costume? Of course the answer is "The Gold Pants"...I mean seriously there is a whole huge thread on those pants. So for them to be at auction AGAIN..that tells me one thing,,,that the outfit that we see in that catalog HAS to be the original..and WHY are they trying so hard to sell it..first 2009..and now 2012. It just brings me to tears seeing that being sold..for me THAT costume means ALOT...and Michael Bush...KNOWS how much Michael's fans love that costume...who cares if the proceeds from it will go to charity. The memory of Michael in that costume means more than the few thousand it will bring at auction. I hope the estate gets their hands on it and takes it away, I gotta leave this thread now...I am just way to upset.

 

[Petrarose]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Thunder can you imagine how many of us girls would line up to buy tickets to see those pants? The estate will cover the costs of setting up a museum in record time, if they have a gold pants as part of any permanent exhibit. I know for a fact that I would be making seasonal trips to visit that item!! The gold pants are gold and are a gold mine to the estate. They should never allow it to leave their possession.

 

[barbee0715]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Just want to say that I agree with all your choices-I'd like the Beat It jacket from the Bad tour too.

 

[Bubs]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

Like your choices! But i remember the silver bad tour outfit in the 02 exhibition in 09 so at least one will be with the estate. I do like that military type long coat that mj wore on that annie lebovitz photo shoot.

Good to know BAD outfit is safe. The estate should give us a list what they have in storages so we don't need to go bonkers every time somebody sells their stuff from Michael.
That long coat is not really that iconic the way some of the other concert costumes, but I included it to my favourites list as that photo of Michael wearing that jacket is well and truly beautiful. He looks so sad, but extremely handsome:blush:

to me the most important and iconic pieces are

Ivy, by looking at your list, you didn't leave many costumes to Bush to sell

I looked through the catalogue again but I didn't see Smooth Criminal costume listed at all!
He has it, and it was shown in exhibition around the world? What happen to it, is it going to be one of the costumes he gives to the estate?

I'll offer to store some of the 'iconic' items for free

Good idea, me too:wild:

I know for a fact that I would be making seasonal trips to visit that item!! The gold pants are gold and are a gold mine to the estate. They should never allow it to leave their possession.

Seasonal trips to see them:rollin:

I cannot believe I left Gold pants out of my "to keep" list!!!!!!

 

[qbee]

Re: Juliens Auction Dec 2 - The Collection of Tompkins and Bush Auction

If someone wants to do an inventory.These are some costumes and wardrobe from MJ Fan Fest already in the Estate's possession. Most are doubles of those gifts in MLB posession. They also have his awards his brooches and many iconic pieces/ props ect from his short films

THIS IS IT ..

IM adding more above ^^^ as I find them