Keep Your Head Up - The Great Debate Thread (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

[DJ Spins the sounds]

Re: Keep Your Head Up - The Great Debate

Or maybe, just maybe, he doesn't feel the need to say anything because the truth is, he's not on the records.

Very true, but either way he should come out and say that he didn't sing on the album, for our sakes especially Michael's?

 

[kopwatcher]

Re: Keep Your Head Up - The Great Debate

So we have non-believers who think KYHU, is the most convincing, while at the same time, other non-believers think it's the worst? And yet you're all confident that it's the same person singing on these songs? Lol.

It seems so. Although, I can't see what's mutually exclusive about those statements.

 

[Superstition]

Re: Keep Your Head Up - The Great Debate

So we have non-believers who think KYHU, is the most convincing, while at the same time, other non-believers think it's the worst? And yet you're all confident that it's the same person singing on these songs? Lol.

So what? People who don't believe none of the three songs are Michael Jackson can't differ in opinion about which sounds more/less like him?

 

[Kellye]

Re: Keep Your Head Up - The Great Debate

I believe it is Jason Malachi on all three songs, with some hooo hooo and heee heees from Michael. Jason does a good job singing in the same style as Michael, but his voice just isn't quite there.

 

[AnnieRUOkay89]

Re: Keep Your Head Up - The Great Debate

So what? People who don't believe none of the three songs are Michael Jackson can't differ in opinion about which sounds more/less like him?

Well, it's the same argument you all use regarding the validity of the songs, it doesn't sound like Michael so it isn't him. Songs like KYHU & Stay don't sound like Malachi, yet you all say it's him, despite having disagreements amongst each other regarding the sound of the vocals on these select songs.


Hypocritical much?

 

[SoCav]

Re: Keep Your Head Up - The Great Debate

What's hypocritical about one person having a different opinion from someone else?

 

[Superstition]

Re: Keep Your Head Up - The Great Debate

Well, it's the same argument you all use regarding the validity of the songs, it doesn't sound like Michael so it isn't him. Songs like KYHU & Stay don't sound like Malachi, yet you all say it's him, despite having disagreements amongst each other regarding the sound of the vocals on these select songs.


Hypocritical much?

What? People making the claim that it's JM (I'm not one of them) obviously do think it sounds like him or else they wouldn't make such a claim. You're trying to apply you're belief that it doesn't sound like him to their argument.

 

[Arklove]

Re: Keep Your Head Up - The Great Debate

It's just fun to argue, that's all....:cheeky:

 

[kopwatcher]

Re: Keep Your Head Up - The Great Debate

It looks like someone's getting a bit desperate. :doh:

 

[L.T.D]

Re: Keep Your Head Up - The Great Debate

So we have non-believers who think KYHU, is the most convincing, while at the same time, other non-believers think it's the worst? And yet you're all confident that it's the same person singing on these songs? Lol.

Just like there are believers who differ in opinion all the time....yet you are all confident its him. We dont share the same brain...

Also, can people not make a point without ending it with a big ol' 'LOL'? It comes across as pompous at times. I can imagine you sitting on a big throne, looking down at the rest of us while thinking 'Ha, look at them all down there....arent they silly....LOL. I'm glad i'm not that stupid '

 

[azsummergirl]

Re: Keep Your Head Up - The Great Debate

just because we those of us who don't believe michael is on the tracks disagree about which cascio tracks are "better" or "worse" imitations is not hypocritical.

We're all here on a michael jackson forum. We're all fans of michael jackson. Yet we all have a different favorite mj song, concert, video, etc. We all have different opinions. is THAT hypocritical?

 

[Aniram]

Re: Keep Your Head Up - The Great Debate

I have been a Michael Jackson fan since I was 3 years old, which was back in 1992 when Free Willy came out. The music video in the beginning was better than the entire movie and changed my life. I have been a big fan of him ever since, studying him, watching every performance, every interview, any writing I could get my hands on.

Listening to this album has been very troubling. When Michael first passed, I had a hard time listening to his music, which was weird to me because I had been listening to it every day for a long time. But it made me sad, it made me feel shocked, just thinking that he was gone.

Every day I listen to the Cascio tracks and I really cannot tell if it's him or not. There is something obviously strange about them that struck me instantly, and it makes me feel uncomfortable when I listen to them. When I listen to I Like The Way, Best of Joy, or Behind the Mask, my favorite songs from the album, I don't get that feeling, but instead feel magical.

Perhaps that's why Michael wanted some of these recordings destroyed? I'm not sure what to make of everything, but I understand both sides of this debate and hope it gets resolved very soon. It hurts me to see the fan-base so divided.

 

[L.T.D]

Re: Keep Your Head Up - The Great Debate

but I understand both sides of this debate and hope it gets resolved very soon. It hurts me to see the fan-base so divided.

I know a lot of people wont believe me, because i'm usually the one involved in a lot of the arguements. But I feel the same, I actually called for a truce quite a while ago now but the majority of people need to oblige before that can happen.

Worst thing is, I cant see this dieing down for a while now. The only way that can happen is if either side is proven wrong without doubt, or something massive happens which overshadows the album. Like, we get the verdict we are all hoping for in the Murray case for example....something like that could bring us all back together.

The problem is that both sides feel very strongly about this, and both sides feel a massive injustice is being done. I'm sure each side believes that Michael is being insulted by the other side. The none believers are criticizing the vocals which the believers are taking offense to because they believe that is us criticizing Michael, while the none believers feel it is insulting to Michael's vocal ability for the believes to think it is him on these songs.

Alot of the believers also feel that the none believers are ruining the album by making these claims, and ruining the experience for them. While the none believers are aggrivated by the idea that everyone is believing into Sony's lies and they are getting away with it......

I think it would be nice if we all agreed on a truce (myself included), but the majority of the board needs to stick to this if its going to work. From now on we should all take a step back and think about what we are posting or the manner in which we say certain things. I'll certainly try to refrain from arguing or saying things which may offend others from now on.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Keep Your Head Up - The Great Debate

I have been a Michael Jackson fan since I was 3 years old, which was back in 1992 when Free Willy came out. The music video in the beginning was better than the entire movie and changed my life. I have been a big fan of him ever since, studying him, watching every performance, every interview, any writing I could get my hands on.

Listening to this album has been very troubling. When Michael first passed, I had a hard time listening to his music, which was weird to me because I had been listening to it every day for a long time. But it made me sad, it made me feel shocked, just thinking that he was gone.

Every day I listen to the Cascio tracks and I really cannot tell if it's him or not. There is something obviously strange about them that struck me instantly, and it makes me feel uncomfortable when I listen to them. When I listen to I Like The Way, Best of Joy, or Behind the Mask, my favorite songs from the album, I don't get that feeling, but instead feel magical.

Perhaps that's why Michael wanted some of these recordings destroyed? I'm not sure what to make of everything, but I understand both sides of this debate and hope it gets resolved very soon. It hurts me to see the fan-base so divided.

As a linguist, all I can say is that what strucks your ear is the absence of Michael's usual accent and the way he pronounces some fricative sibilants such as and [sh] or [z] and [zh].

People who are not very gifted in languages don't necessarily hear those little tiny details. People whose ears are sensitive to those details are generally struck by this something wrong, yet they can't tell what.

The singer on the Cascio tracks doesn't seem to have neither the same prounciation of those consonants, nor voice timbre, nor intonation (e.g. "stalking me" in the song Monster) as Michael. If there are other (multi)linguists on this board their view would be insightful and interesting to share.

 

[F D B]

Re: Keep Your Head Up - The Great Debate

^^^^
Great point Bumper.

I feel exactly the same as Aniram, plus at certain phrases/lines it doesn't sound like Michael at all. For example:
In Monster - "And you're running, and you're running just to escape it"
In Breaking News - "They could put around the world today He wanna write my obituary"
In Keep Your Head Up - "Give me your wings so we can fly". Instead of Wings he says "wigs" without the N.

These are just a few examples really, there're many many more lines in which THE voice sounds totally different to Michael's.

It just shows that the singer is trying REALLY hard to pronnunciate like Michael and to do a vibrato at the ending of every line. It just sounds so forced.

 

[Kapital77]

Re: Keep Your Head Up - The Great Debate

^^^^
Great point Bumper.

I feel exactly the same as Aniram, plus at certain phrases/lines it doesn't sound like Michael at all. For example:
In Monster - "And you're running, and you're running just to escape it"
In Breaking News - "They could put around the world today He wanna write my obituary"
In Keep Your Head Up - "Give me your wings so we can fly". Instead of Wings he says "wigs" without the N.

These are just a few examples really, there're many many more lines in which THE voice sounds totally different to Michael's.

It just shows that the singer is trying REALLY hard to pronnunciate like Michael and to do a vibrato at the ending of every line. It just sounds so forced.

Great points.

Yes, he sounds so forced with those vibratos.

 

[Garden]

Re: Keep Your Head Up - The Great Debate

As a linguist, all I can say is that what strucks your ear is the absence of Michael's usual accent and the way he pronounces some fricative sibilants such as and [sh] or [z] and [zh].

People who are not very gifted in languages don't necessarily hear those little tiny details. People whose ears are sensitive to those details are generally struck by this something wrong, yet they can't tell what.

The singer on the Cascio tracks doesn't seem to have neither the same prounciation of those consonants, nor voice timbre, nor intonation (e.g. "stalking me" in the song Monster) as Michael. If there are other (multi)linguists on this board their view would be insightful and interesting to share.

Bumper I am not a linguist but I am very very much interested in this, both in linguistics and in Michael's "diction" or what is the right word?
Bumper if you have the time available, would you feel like opening a thread on this? Maybe with the purpose of studying Michael's "diction" through his different "era's" (taking dental surgeries, changings in his "sound cavities", socio-geographical influences and so on in account as well). It could be much helping in our evaluation of the vocals on the Cascio tracks AND it would be a reason to become even more (if possible) fascinated, mesmerized over our wonderful
Singer....

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Keep Your Head Up - The Great Debate

Bumper I am not a linguist but I am very very much interested in this, both in linguistics and in Michael's "diction" or what is the right word?
Bumper if you have the time available, would you feel like opening a thread on this? Maybe with the purpose of studying Michael's "diction" through his different "era's" (taking dental surgeries, changings in his "sound cavities", socio-geographical influences and so on in account as well). It could be much helping in our evaluation of the vocals on the Cascio tracks AND it would be a reason to become even more (if possible) fascinated, mesmerized over our wonderful
Singer....

It would be an interesting thread. The thing is, the linguistical aspect concerns only Cascio tracks. On all other songs Michael is recognizable beyond doubt. The accent might change, as I said earlier, but not the pronunciation. Despite his (probable?) dental surgeries, Michael's pronunciation on This Is It is not diffeent from Invincible Era for example, yet on the Cascio tracks it is. And some words, lines, phrases and sentences strikingly do not sound as Michael at all (pronunciation and intonation).

 

[Arklove]

Re: Keep Your Head Up - The Great Debate

It would be an interesting thread. The thing is, the linguistical aspect concerns only Cascio tracks. On all other songs Michael is recognizable beyond doubt. The accent might change, as I said earlier, but not the pronunciation. Despite his (probable?) dental surgeries, Michael's pronunciation on This Is It is not diffeent from Invincible Era for example, yet on the Cascio tracks it is. And some words, lines, phrases and sentences strikingly do not sound as Michael at all (pronunciation and intonation).

I agree with Garden..I think you should definitely open up a thread about this...Utilizing what you know about linguistics, compare and contrast the Cascio tracks with Mike's own voice in other songs....It would be VERY interesting, and definitely part of the debate....

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Keep Your Head Up - The Great Debate

I agree with Garden..I think you should definitely open up a thread about this...Utilizing what you know about linguistics, compare and contrast the Cascio tracks with Mike's own voice in other songs....It would be VERY interesting, and definitely part of the debate....

I could open such a thread and share what I know, but I would prefer to share it with other linguists, especially those who are familiar with phonology.

I am actually curious to see if any linguist familiar with phonology would say that s/he hears Michael's voice/pronunciation on the Cascio tracks.

As already mentioned before, from a linguistical point of view, I am firmly convinced that it is not Michael saying "stalking me" in the song Monster.

 

[Garden]

Re: Keep Your Head Up - The Great Debate

@ Arklove, thank you for supporting my idea !

@ Bumper Snippet. I've been to TII 7 times but it won't help me now because I can not play my DVD, for hardware-reasons
For a comparision Bumper, I need to know what is sung live and what has been used in the making of the film...but unfortunately I cannot search for it because I cannot watch the DVD...
What now?

 

[Garden]

Re: Keep Your Head Up - The Great Debate

I could open such a thread and share what I know, but I would prefer to share it with other linguists, especially those who are familiar with phonology.

I am actually curious to see if any linguist familiar with phonology would say that s/he hears Michael's voice/pronunciation on the Cascio tracks.

As already mentioned before, from a linguistical point of view, I am firmly convinced that it is not Michael saying "stalking me" in the song Monster.

Okay, but why do you need other linguists and phonologists?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Keep Your Head Up - The Great Debate

@ Arklove, thank you for supporting my idea !

@ Bumper Snippet. I've been to TII 7 times but it won't help me now because I can not play my DVD, for hardware-reasons
For a comparision Bumper, I need to know what is sung live and what has been used in the making of the film...but unfortunately I cannot search for it because I cannot watch the DVD...
What now?

Live or studio voice, it doesn't affect your natural way of pronouncing words. When you normally speak (live or recorded) the length of your vowels will always be the same in each respective situation (feeling surprised, sad, happy, etc.) In other words, the way some words on Cascio tracks are pronounced sound as if the natural pace of the length of the vowels has been affected, broken or simply sung by someone else. This latter is the most plausible answer, since the voice timbre and husk don't match Michael's usual voice timbre and husk. It sounds forced and a bit choked (hence we hear lack of power in the voice), and fails to be convincing enough.


For your audio/video comparison why don't you try youtube?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Keep Your Head Up - The Great Debate

Okay, but why do you need other linguists and phonologists?

In order to be as objective as possible.

 

[Garden]

Re: Keep Your Head Up - The Great Debate

Live or studio voice, it doesn't affect your natural way of pronouncing words.

That's logical, but what if the vocals are from another "era"?

When you normally speak (live or recorded) the length of your vowels will always be the same in each respective situation (feeling surprised, sad, happy, etc.)

Hm, Michael is a singer who likes to play with vocals, vowels, syllabs, everything. His voice sometimes is very much a "music instrument", or almost a prolongement of his beat boxing I would call it sometimes. Except on certain ballads, that's sometimes a total different thing.
For instance in Much Too Soon I don't hear him "play" so much...
But... when I think of Human Nature... it is not like beat boxing of course but really his voice is an instrument of sensuality there . The way he says "sweet seduucin' sighs"... Forgive me if I make you disagree.

In other words, the way some words on Cascio tracks are pronounced sound as if the natural pace of the length of the vowels has been affected, broken or simply sung by someone else.

I could agree.

This latter is the most plausible answer, since the voice timbre and husk don't match Michael's usual voice timbre and husk.

That I don't know. Why should Michael's husk always be there and the same kind of?
Timbre and husk... Michael usually can almost do whatever he wants with his voice.

It sounds forced and a bit choked (hence we hear lack of power in the voice), and fails to be convincing enough.

That's possible.

For your audio/video comparison why don't you try youtube?

Well I did, but it is hard to find everything of it... I'll try again .

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Keep Your Head Up - The Great Debate

That's logical, but what if the vocals are from another "era"?

Even if it is from another era the voice timbre should remain the same. Michael was a singer and he trained his voice regularly, so the timbre can't change. When Michael speaks or sings in This Is It, it's still the same timbre.

Hm, Michael is a singer who likes to play with vocals, vowels, syllabs, everything. His voice sometimes is very much a "music instrument", or almost a prolongement of his beat boxing I would call it sometimes. Except on certain ballads, that's sometimes a total different thing.
For instance in Much Too Soon I don't hear him "play" so much...
But... when I think of Human Nature... it is not like beat boxing of course but really his voice is an instrument of sensuality there . The way he says "sweet seduucin' sighs"... Forgive me if I make you disagree.

Well, that's precisely what I said actually. The voice or pace of the segments or phrases remains the same in each respective situation.

In other terms we could take all Michael Jackson's albums and divide the songs in several different categories of voice. For example we could put into the same category: "she's out of my life", "I just can't stop loving you", "Lady in my life", "Someone put your hand out", etc. or "Speed demon", "Why you wanna trip on me", "Privacy", "Hollywood tonight" in the same category.

As you can see all the songs are from different eras, yet the voice timbre remains through different eras and is always faithful to the type of song that is sung.

"Monster" for example would be impossible to put into any of the categories in terms of voice timbre, since the voice does not match with any of the aspects of the voice that we know from Michael Jackson.

That I don't know. Why should Michael's husk always be there and the same kind of?
Timbre and husk... Michael usually can almost do whatever he wants with his voice.

Because Michael's husk is ALWAYS on faster songs and it is always the same and inimitable husk. All the soundalikes have to force themselves to have Michael's husk. When a voice is forced you can hear that. But when Michael sang with his husky voice, it was actually not forced, it was the uniqueness of his voice. Take for example the end of the Earth Song when Michael shouts "WHAT ABOUT US". When he shouts, you do'nt seem to hear that he forces himself nor that he's choked, and that's again, because it is his natural voice when he shouts. And I am defying anyone to shout as powerfully as Michael the lines "WHAT ABOUT US" and in the same time have exactly the same husk in his voice.

 

[Arklove]

Re: Keep Your Head Up - The Great Debate

Because Michael's husk is ALWAYS on faster songs and it is always the same and inimitable husk. All the soundalikes have to force themselves to have Michael's husk. When a voice is forced you can hear that. But when Michael sang with his husky voice, it was actually not forced, it was the uniqueness of his voice. Take for example the end of the Earth Song when Michael shouts "WHAT ABOUT US". When he shouts, you do'nt seem to hear that he forces himself nor that he's choked, and that's again, because it is his natural voice when he shouts. And I am defying anyone to shout as powerfully as Michael the lines "WHAT ABOUT US" and in the same time have exactly the same husk in his voice.

I think it was Bruce Swedien who mentioned before that Michael was a master at being able to control the volume of his voice...I don't know how he explained it; I think it was in his book, 'In the Studio with Michael Jackson'..I'm not at home right now, so I can't reference it...

It was like Michael was able to sing LOUDLY without having to force the volume of his voice up...It made sense to me the way he said it, but I can't explain it well...lol....Do you know what I mean, Bumper?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Re: Keep Your Head Up - The Great Debate

I think it was Bruce Swedien who mentioned before that Michael was a master at being able to control the volume of his voice...I don't know how he explained it; I think it was in his book, 'In the Studio with Michael Jackson'..I'm not at home right now, so I can't reference it...

It was like Michael was able to sing LOUDLY without having to force the volume of his voice up...It made sense to me the way he said it, but I can't explain it well...lol....Do you know what I mean, Bumper?

I see what you mean. He could sing loudly without shouting. The particularity is that Michael Jackson had a big capacity of breath control. He wasn't out of breath when he sang loudly, while many people would have felt as if they ran a marathon.

 

[Arklove]

Re: Keep Your Head Up - The Great Debate

^^ Yes, just as simple as that....

 

[samhabib]

Re: Keep Your Head Up - The Great Debate

He was a genius vocalist. Simple as that. Even days before death, he was still a fantastic vocalist - listen to his performances of Human Nature, IJCSLY and I'll Be There on TII. In particular, I'll Be There where he effortlessly hits the falsetto - 'if youuuu should ever find someone knew...'

Will.I.Am was dead right, he still sang like a bird.