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Medical experts opinions about the case and medical information

Re: What a nurse thinks

Beachlover said:
I agree with much of what you said here but now will add my thoughts.

I do believe Michael knew this as well and this is why he was looking for another doctor or nurse to be there as well. What baffles me is why Michael allowed this to be done by one man without proper equipment handy. He should have known better.

It leads me to wonder what really happened here. Were they using the Propofol other nights? Were they using the Lorazepam other nights? Were they trying to get an assistant there? What was Michael himself thinking?

It is very difficult to stay awake all night monitoring a single patient even if thats your only job. I have worked nights. I have worked 12 hour nights. I used to sleep ALL DAY for at least 8 or 9 hours sometimes and STILL I was tired. Propofol comes out of your lungs and into the surrounding air. That room was hot.

I can't even imagine if Michael told me he would give ME 500,000.00 a week to sit there if I could have done it even WITH proper equipment. I would have wanted a pulse oximeter with a loud alarm, a heart monitor with a loud alarm, etc in the event I fell asleep. It all just makes a recipe for disaster.

So, there are many things I question.

BUT keep in mind here that the heat in that room would not have been any benefit AFTER the fact because it speeds up everything Murray would have tried to cover up.
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I think that it's best to keep to what we do know and that is how much of these drugs were in MJ's system after the fact.

How it was administered and the sequence of the administration we do not know.

What we do know is that certain drugs in his system presented a lethal dose and the background that Justthefacts provided is very useful in understanding how these drugs are typically administered and what happens to a patient afterwards.

We do not know what Michael knew or didn't know beyond the tabloid-fare information. What Michael should have known is just speculation at this point. However I would not expect for him or any other lay person to medical procedures to somehow know who or what all is needed for his care.

I do expect for a doctor who is a specialist with OR experience to know. I would also reasonably expect a doctor who was to be paid all that money to have all of the resources at hand that would be needed to properly administer those drugs.
 
Re: What a nurse thinks

mello1 said:
I think that it's best to keep to what we do know and that is how much of these drugs were in MJ's system after the fact.

How it was administered and the sequence of the administration we do not know.
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Good post. Thanks. Right. We know what the tox report said, but not how the drugs were administered and in what sequence, i.e. massive bolus, drip, or whatever. Murray apparently had plenty of time to clean up, flush out tubing (or not), rearrange things, and so on.

mello1 said:
What we do know is that certain drugs in his system presented a lethal dose and the background that Justthefacts provided is very useful in understanding how these drugs are typically administered and what happens to a patient afterwards.
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Right. It was the drugs that killed him, and see above for what we do not know about their administration or sequence. That is a matter only for our speculation, but we cannot know facts about that.

mello1 said:
We do not know what Michael knew or didn't know beyond the tabloid-fare information. What Michael should have known is just speculation at this point. However I would not expect for him or any other lay person to medical procedures to somehow know who or what all is needed for his care.
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Michael had a lot of medical knowledge, but he also had a certain amount of trust in his doctors, and didn't know EVERYTHING.

mello1 said:
I do expect for a doctor who is a specialist with OR experience to know. I would also reasonably expect a doctor who was to be paid all that money to have all of the resources at hand that would be needed to properly administer those drugs.
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One would expect that, for sure. There is no indication that Murray actually was a moron or he wouldn't have been able to maintain a medical clinic, and there would have been numerous complaints about him. There weren't. It looks like a massive mistake. That's what it LOOKS like. We do not really know if it was a mistake, or not.

Here is just a bit of what we do NOT know. We do not know that anything Murray says is true. Just the shifting timeline should tell us that. We do not know if Michael ever "begged" for propofol, or if that story was a "plant." We do not know that there was ANY relationship between the pain-medications that had been an issue in the past, and the propofol for sleep that Murray was apparently giving Michael. No opiates were found in Michael's system. Media tried early on to have us believe this connection, but it was not accurate

We do not know if Murray had been fired, i.e. not going to London after-all. His contract was not signed. He had not done the paperwork, i.e. passport and so on.

We do not know what his relationship was with Michael at the end. We do not know if Michael had an I.V. line in place just for rehydratioin, and Murray pushed in a bolus of propofol and benzos and killed him. Nobody here knows that. I'm not speculating here that that is what happened. I'm just saying we do not KNOW, and the physical evidence from the autopsy report and from the house, do not give us those answers.
 
Re: What a nurse thinks

Exactly, if we stick to the facts we know:

-The amount of propofol found in the samples in the toxicology report correspond to a dose much greater than the 25mg Murray delcared he administered.

-The amount of lorazepam found in the samples in the toxicology report correspond to a dose approx 2.5 times greater than the 4mg Murray declared he administered.

-Murrays bag with the injectables in it were hidden in the closet.

-CPR was done incorrectly.

-911 was not called immediately.

-He was on the phone between 11.18am until after midday.

Why is this not Second Degree Murder? How can he even explain the need for propofol at all due to the amount of lorazepam in Michael's system.
 
Re: What a nurse thinks

daisydaisy said:
Exactly, if we stick to the facts we know:

-The amount of propofol found in the samples in the toxicology report correspond to a dose much greater than the 25mg Murray delcared he administered.

-The amount of lorazepam found in the samples in the toxicology report correspond to a dose approx 2.5 times greater than the 4mg Murray declared he administered.

-Murrays bag with the injectables in it were hidden in the closet.

-CPR was done incorrectly.

-911 was not called immediately.

-He was on the phone between 11.18am until after midday.

Why is this not Second Degree Murder? How can he even explain the need for propofol at all due to the amount of lorazepam in Michael's system.
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I have absolutely no idea why this is not second-degree murder. A jury was able to puzzle out the truth when Michael was on trial, so why could not a jury sort through this, too? As I've said before, my opinion is that it would have been worth the risk.
 
Re: What a nurse thinks

daisydaisy said:
Exactly, if we stick to the facts we know:

-The amount of propofol found in the samples in the toxicology report correspond to a dose much greater than the 25mg Murray delcared he administered.

-The amount of lorazepam found in the samples in the toxicology report correspond to a dose approx 2.5 times greater than the 4mg Murray declared he administered.

-Murrays bag with the injectables in it were hidden in the closet.

-CPR was done incorrectly.

-911 was not called immediately.

-He was on the phone between 11.18am until after midday.

Why is this not Second Degree Murder? How can he even explain the need for propofol at all due to the amount of lorazepam in Michael's system.
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Ya got me. He didn't have the equipment, tools or even medicines to deal with an emergency situation. Why not just call 911 ASAP and get him the help he needed?
 
Re: What a nurse thinks

mello1 said:
Ya got me. He didn't have the equipment, tools or even medicines to deal with an emergency situation. Why not just call 911 ASAP and get him the help he needed?
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Got me, too. How hard would it have been to get the proper equipment, anyway?

We don't have enough information, and certainly not as much as a jury would have. Here are some possibilities as to what happened.

1. Murray is a total moron, (even though there isn't much evidence of this before he went to work to Michael)l. He made an incredible string of mistakes.

2. Murray hooked Michael up to the I.V. and the propofol, then left to go see his girlfriend. Michael was long-gone before he got back. (Hence the "missing" security tapes? If those tapes showing entry and exit to the house are indeed, missing?) He turned the fireplaces up so Michael's body would seem warm. He rushed around in a panic trying to clean up, yet in the middle of that panic made a perfectly normal phone call to "Bob."

3. He got angry at Michael for some reason, and acted impulsively and pushed the propofol intentionally. He does have an arrest record for spousal abuse, so he must have a short fuse.

4. Or, it was planned and he'll be paid-off.

Don't know which of these it was, but pretty sure it was one of them. A jury will hear the evidence. The charges are appallingly minor.
 
Re: What a nurse thinks

elusive moonwalker said:
cause murray knew he was gone so created a scene instead
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Well, I for one don't want no plea deal. I want to know what happened in that house, or at least the DA's most informed theory based on the evidence anyway. If it's true that the EMTs wanted to call MJ at the house, then I wanna no y Murray overruled it. I wanna know the best informed, expert-based reason as to how this man died.

And I want him found guilty, jailed, and his license snatched forever.
 
Re: What a nurse thinks

mello1 said:
Well, I for one don't want no plea deal. I want to know what happened in that house, or at least the DA's most informed theory based on the evidence anyway. If it's true that the EMTs wanted to call MJ at the house, then I wanna no y Murray overruled it. I wanna know the best informed, expert-based reason as to how this man died.

And I want him found guilty, jailed, and his license snatched forever.
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I agree with you too Mello...I want to know what happend to Michael...but this does also includeds looking BEYOND the scene that Murray has left ...a good investigator would know that..IMHO ..and not just take what Murray has said happened and call it that.
 
Re: What a nurse thinks

I agree too, for it is the whole chain of mistakes than makes the probability of an accident very low. If he accidentally gave too much lorazepam, this could have been an accident if it was the only mistake. But what happened later all points to it being non-accidental. Plus the fact that lorazepam was injected before propofol is only going from Murray's statement, which seems to be BS. So we do not know the actual timings of the doses.
 
Re: What a nurse thinks

In a paper here in Australia today it said that Murray gave Michael up to 40x more propofol than he originally said he gave him. :( why oh WHY is he only up for involuntary manslaughter?? :(
 
Re: What a nurse thinks

Before I start - I ahve no knowledge of medicine whatsoever- my thoughts after reading the original post was - we need to find out whether Michael was given that injection to stop him breathing or not - I think this is crucial. The nurse said that in a hospital setting an injection would be given before the propofol to stop the breathing then the ventilators would do the breathing for him - therefore if Michael WAS given this injection and there were NO ventilators, monitors etc this is surely murder as this would indicate intent (which is the crucial element of murder and diffierence between manslaughter and murder). I don't know I just feel that there is so much that needs to be discussed, so much to be interrogated. Michael deserves justice. My anger towards Murray is indescribable, the hate venomous. Imagine if we were reading this a year ago we would think this could never happen to our idol, yet it has happened and justice MUST prevail.
 
Re: What a nurse thinks

Some poster from the other site said the same thing about lozeparam might have been given after MJ's already gone! and we've concluded that MJ did die within seconds after being injected with propofol. Otherwise, there can't be such lethal amount of propofol in his system. So, it's pretty clear this isn't just an accident!
 
Re: What a nurse thinks

Beachlover said:
I have seen a lot of people die. I have NEVER seen one scream out in pain. Also, if he was given Propofol in the amount we know he gave, believe me...it was totally peaceful for him. If NOTHING else, KNOW that.
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I have had surgery being anesthetized with Propofol, including breathing tube etc- planned.
The only thing that I recall is the burning of the Propofol going in, I think they were a bit a bit stingy with the Lidocaine.
But once you are out you are OUT. And I mean out. You're not just unconscious, even your subconscious is out and that is the big difference to "just sleeping".

If one thing makes this more bearable (if that's even possible) is that Michael would most definitely not have suffered from physical pain.

I on the other hand have doubts about the whole "before" situation, if everything was truly "voluntary" here.
 
Re: What a nurse thinks

Modulation Alert said:
I have had surgery being anesthetized with Propofol, including breathing tube etc- planned.
The only thing that I recall is the burning of the Propofol going in, I think they were a bit a bit stingy with the Lidocaine.
But once you are out you are OUT. And I mean out. You're not just unconscious, even your subconscious is out and that is the big difference to "just sleeping".

If one thing makes this more bearable (if that's even possible) is that Michael would most definitely not have suffered from physical pain.

I on the other hand have doubts about the whole "before" situation, if everything was truly "voluntary" here.
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I agree with this whole post!!!
 
Re: What a nurse thinks

Justthefacts said:
Third did anyone find it strange that Lorazepam was found in Michael's heart blood and Femoral blood and no place else?
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No, it's the only place where the blood was taken from during the autopsy. They don't need to take blood samples from every parts of the body.

In the autopsy report, there are 3 blood sources, The heart and the femoral are collected only when during the autopsy and the hospital blood were collected in the hopital. Note that the autopsy department are seperate from the hospital.

I'm not sure how to calculate the amount of drug introduce into the body by using information of the drug found from the blood. However most of the drug are broken down via metabolism in the liver and during circulations since benzodiazepine are not very stable drugs. Maybe I could try asking my toxicology department and see if they can figure out! haha!

Btw, I work just next door to the toxicology department (I work in serology department). If anyone want me to ask some specific phamarceutical information, I could! lol!
 
Re: What a nurse thinks

RainbowAngel said:
No, it's the only place where the blood was taken from during the autopsy. They don't need to take blood samples from every parts of the body.

In the autopsy report, there are 3 blood sources, The heart and the femoral are collected only when during the autopsy and the hospital blood were collected in the hopital. Note that the autopsy department are seperate from the hospital.

I'm not sure how to calculate the amount of drug introduce into the body by using information of the drug found from the blood. However most of the drug are broken down via metabolism in the liver and during circulations since benzodiazepine are not very stable drugs. Maybe I could try asking my toxicology department and see if they can figure out! haha!
Btw, I work just next door to the toxicology department (I work in serology department). If anyone want me to ask some specific phamarceutical information, I could! lol!
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They tested his liver his urine and his urine at the scene and did not find it. However they found Propofol and all of those samples. And they also fond other samples of other things he gave Michael in his body. I just think it is strange they only found it in his heart blood and femoral blood
 
Re: What a nurse thinks

Beachlover said:
That is what it looks like and seems the most logical to me. Many unanswered questions but I think 'panic' set in.
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Michael was found to have an overly high amount of lorazepam and propofol. Why the hell did he do this with TWO drugs? Not one but TWO. There is no innocent way of explaining this, hence the 'panic'.
 
Re: What a nurse thinks

eighthnoterojo said:
So both of you medical professionals are saying it is a common occurrence for trained personnel to panic, and that standard medical procedures, in serious situations, are just tossed out the window? Geez, that's reassuring! One would think that with all the years of training it takes to become a doctor, that correct CPR would become automatic, even for any medical professional. What the hell are they teaching at med school then, if not what to do, and what not to do in a crisis situation?

Nope; not buying it.

This doctor has made so many huge mistakes, and has behaved so recklessely, it makes no sense whatsoever. And we are to believe that the poor doctor panicked, and that that is normal behaviour under the circumstances. Mmhmm.
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I know that there is an adrenaline rush in situations like that, but I still would hope that ones' training would kick in like second nature. It's not reassuring to me either.
 
Re: What a nurse thinks

Justthefacts said:
They tested his liver his urine and his urine at the scene and did not find it. However they found Propofol and all of those samples. And they also fond other samples of other things he gave Michael in his body. I just think it is strange they only found it in his heart blood and femoral blood
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Refering to page 50, Propofol and Lidocane were detected in both liver and urine as well. Propofol at the highest concentration followed by Lorazepam then Lidocane. Infact Propofol is detected in all the samples taken (stomach fuild, eye fluid, blood, liver, urine) Lorazepam is not detected in Liver and Urine. I can only think of two reasons a drug is not detected in Urine and Liver - first it's because it had just been indroduced to the body prior to the death so it haven't have enought time to be filtered by the liver and urine. Second is that it have very short half life and so it's easily broken down making it hard to detect.
I'll need to find that out, to see if it really have a short life.
 
Re: What a nurse thinks

Ummm.... I'm not sure why or how the discussion about a nurse's findings have morphed into this being MJ's fault??? I thought we were discussing JTF's comments that went as follows:

Number one and this is something we all knew since day one Michael had what she called a ridiculous amount of Propofol in his system way more then the 25 milligrams Murray said he gave. Two she said in a hospital Propofol is usually given like this a person is sedated and ventilated because in a hospital a person is given a bolus injection so they can stop breathing and the machine takes over breathing for them. And through the surgery the Propofol is dripped slowly to keep the person out. The idea is to put the person out as fast as they can so they can do the surgery. She said in her opinion Murray gave Michael Propofol this way because that is how it is done in a hospital but unlike a hospital he did not have the proper equipment to ventilate Michael or the equipment to get Michael breathing again when he stopped. Remember in the hospital the idea is to stop the person from breathing on there own hence why they are hooked up breathing machines and sedated. Now if the purpose was for Michael to sleep a slow drip would have slowly put Michael to sleep and when it was turned off he would have woke up. Just like we all thought was being done but we have since learned it was not. Third did anyone find it strange that Lorazepam was found in Michael's heart blood and Femoral blood and no place else? So did the nurse she feels that Murray either gave Michael the Propofol and soon afterwards gave him the Lorazepam or gave it to him to him with the Propofol because the Lorazepam seems to have gone to his heart and went no place because either his heart could not move it because he was not breathing or Michael was already dead when he gave it to him. Or the Lorazepam stopped his heart while the Propofol stopped his breathing. She said it seems that Murray just said oh well I am a doctor I can do it. And she said Michael died within seconds. Now I am sure someone will come here and disagree with me but this is what I have learned and I wanted to share
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I don't know about anyone else, but I do expect a medical professional to know how to properly administer any drugs being given. I don't know what all this has to do with MJ...
 
Re: What a nurse thinks

Thanks just the facts for the info here from asking your friend who is a nurse.
I just hope and pray that when Murray comes to court again these whole of the facts are presented and dealt with. Clearly there is alot more to this than meets the eye.
I take tiny tiny small comfort that MJ was oblivious to all of this and didnt suffer :-(
From the sounds of the facts Michael............... oh gosh this is so hard to even write the words.......... Michael would have very quickly have become unconscious.in a deep comatose state.......as if he were undergoing surgery?
It saddens me beyond words to even say this...............still think even now I will wake up and find its all been a nightmare. :-(
Gutted :-(
 
Re: What a nurse thinks

RainbowAngel said:
Refering to page 50, Propofol and Lidocane were detected in both liver and urine as well. Propofol at the highest concentration followed by Lorazepam then Lidocane. Infact Propofol is detected in all the samples taken (stomach fuild, eye fluid, blood, liver, urine) Lorazepam is not detected in Liver and Urine. I can only think of two reasons a drug is not detected in Urine and Liver - first it's because it had just been indroduced to the body prior to the death so it haven't have enought time to be filtered by the liver and urine. Second is that it have very short half life and so it's easily broken down making it hard to detect.
I'll need to find that out, to see if it really have a short life.
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the most reliable source for drug concentration is blood collected on admission immediatley before or after death . so hospital blood in MJs case would have reflected what really happened . in hospital blood they did not list any lorazepam .They did say they found propofol , lidocaine ...etc but no lorazepam .
there is no doubt , not even 1% doubt Murray lied about Lorazepam that day . He difinitely did not give it at 3 nor at 5 am as he claimed , due to the lack of it in liver and in hospital blood . he definitley lied about the dose , if you want to believe his story , lorazepam concentration would have been less than 40 ng/ml by 11 am that day . Another complete lie .

It does not have a short half life unlike midazolam , it takes days to disappear from the body . It was the first option , it was injected not long before MJ's death .

and please ask thetoxicology department what do they think of this story :

1. 2 mg dose of lorazepam at 2 am

2.2 mg dose of lorazepam at 5 am

3. no lorazepam in hospital blood.

4. 162 ng/ml lorazepam concentration in heart blood.

5. 167 ng/ml lorazepam concentration in femoral blood .

Does it make sense medically ? what's their explanation ?

Thank you in advance
 
Re: What a nurse thinks

Soundmind said:
the most reliable source for drug concentration is blood collected on admission immediatley before or after death . so hospital blood in MJs case would have reflected what really happened . in hospital blood they did not list any lorazepam .They did say they found propofol , lidocaine ...etc but no lorazepam .
there is no doubt , not even 1% doubt Murray lied about Lorazepam that day . He difinitely did not give it at 3 nor at 5 am as he claimed , due to the lack of it in liver and in hospital blood . he definitley lied about the dose , if you want to believe his story , lorazepam concentration would have been less than 40 ng/ml by 11 am that day . Another complete lie .

It does not have a short half life unlike midazolam , it takes days to disappear from the body . It was the first option , it was injected not long before MJ's death .

and please ask thetoxicology department what do they think of this story :

1. 2 mg dose of lorazepam at 2 am

2.2 mg dose of lorazepam at 5 am

3. no lorazepam in hospital blood. NOT TESTED

4. 162 ng/ml lorazepam concentration in heart blood.

5. 167 ng/ml lorazepam concentration in femoral blood .

Does it make sense medically ? what's their explanation ?

Thank you in advance
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Medically what it means is they did not list that result or they didn't test it. It is not on the report as "ND" which is not detected.

Liver for Lorazepam was also NOT TESTED. It does not say "ND".

You need to read the long sheets if you are to understand what I am saying. If something is not there, not listed, it doesn't mean it was not in the liver, blood, heart, etc. It means the drug was either not tested or not put on the report. If it is tested and found not there it is listed as "ND" which is not detected.
 
Dr. Bruce Speiss, Professor of Anesthesiology, MJ's Propofol Levels CNN Video

Dr. Bruce Speiss,
Professor of Anesthesiology, MJ's Propofol Levels CNN Video
WATCH VIDEO INTERVIEW FROM DR. SPEISS, ANESTHESIOLOGIST Click on the
Link below:

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2010/04/02/jackson.propofol.amount.cnn?iref=allsearch
Michael_Jackson_Final_Rehearsal_23Jun09_A.jpg


Propofol level in Michael Jackson's body at the time of his autopsy was 10 to 100 times higher than the level attributable to the dosage Dr. Conrad Murray admits to having administered. Photo Credit: Kevin Mazur/AEG/Getty Images


April 02, 2010, (Sawf News) - Propofol level in Michael Jackson's body at the time of his autopsy was 10 to 100 times higher than the level attributable to the dosage Dr. Conrad Murray admits to having administered.

Dr. Bruce Speiss, Professor of Anesthesiology, who didn't' treat Michael Jackson, tells CNN:

"The levels of propofol in the toxicology report are considerably higher, perhaps by factors of 10 to a 100 time higher."

Murray told police that he administered 25 ml of propofol after three other drugs failed to help Michael sleep.

Dr. Bruce also highlights some other inconsistencies.

Murray says he stayed with Jackson for 10 minutes after administering propofol, in which case he should have noticed something was wrong.

Michael should have been adversely affected with seconds of being given the drug.

"If he was going to stop breathing he should have stopped breathing within 30 secs to 2 mins after the propofol went in," says Dr. Bruce.

Also, a quantity as small as 25 ml should have been injected, not administered using IV, Dr Bruce points out, sinc the IV tube itself would take up 25 ml.

http://www.sawfnews.com/Gossip/63323.aspx
 
Re: Dr. Bruce Speiss, Professor of Anesthesiology, MJ's Propofol Levels CNN Video

thanks for posting.
 
Had another talk with a medical worker

I had a talk today with a co worker. He is an EMT who works with us part time. On a break he took a look at the tox report he like me was very interested in the Lorazapam and how it was only in two locations in Michael's body heart blood and femur blood. He took a look at it and told me this. He said he found it interesting that the Propofol is all over Michael his hospital blood liver blah blah to him it meant that when Michael was given Propofol his heart was still beating and the heart was pumping the Propofol all over his body but when the Lorazepam went in it made the effects of Propofol worst and Michael's and his heart and his breathing stopped that is why the Lorazepam went nowhere. What do you think
 
Re: Had another tall with a medical worker

I don't know, but it would make sense. but didn't Murray say he gave MJ Propofol twice that night (according to the police). So couldn't the propofol being all over be from the first time.

At the very least though it shows the very least that shows that the lor and pro were given in close proximity of each other. i don't know why that would be?
 
Re: Had another tall with a medical worker

You mean, like...the Lorazepam was given after the Propofol?...
 
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