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Michael - The Great Album Debate

Well, if they made an album of all 12 then at least we wouldn't have to worry about those songs being put together with real ones.
 
For the record, I want to stress this.

I was just looking through the older pages (when this thread was a mere child in the 500/600 pages) and I saw, and sometimes continue to see, people blaming Sony Music for the release of the Cascio tracks. People fail to realize that the Estate of Michael Jackson provides the songs that shall be released. Sony doesn't pick. Sony is only the "releasers" and the "promoters".
 
AlwaysThere said:
For the record, I want to stress this.

I was just looking through the older pages (when this thread was a mere child in the 500/600 pages) and I saw, and sometimes continue to see, people blaming Sony Music for the release of the Cascio tracks. People fail to realize that the Estate of Michael Jackson provides the songs that shall be released. Sony doesn't pick. Sony is only the "releasers" and the "promoters".
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It was Sony who purchased the songs, specifically it was John Doelp who negotiated the deal. Both Sony and the estate decided together to go forward with the songs following a crisis meeting in Miami on November 9th 2010. That ridiculous statement was the result of that meeting. Blame for such a stupid decision lay equally with both the estate and Sony.
 
StellaJackson said:
That's what they wanted. I don't know which would have been worse.
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This is worse in my opinion. Because a lot of us who hate the fake songs, had to buy album anyway. If all 12 songs were released on 1 album, many of us wouldn't buy it.
 
StellaJackson said:
It was Sony who purchased the songs, specifically it was John Doelp who negotiated the deal. Both Sony and the estate decided together to go forward with the songs following a crisis meeting in Miami on November 9th 2010. That ridiculous statement was the result of that meeting. Blame for such a stupid decision lay equally with both the estate and Sony.
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So the Estate paid them nothing? Sony paid all the millions of dollars, or 50-50?
 
OnirMJ said:
So the Estate paid them nothing? Sony paid all the millions of dollars, or 50-50?
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I believe so but I can't be certain. All I know about that is that the asking price was one million dollars per track plus royalties. What they ended up getting was about $100,000 per track.
 
I must say, I am amazed at what has happened due to this. MJ fans used to be united, we used to fight for things (and I still do occasionally see that elsewhere). We all get together when some news reporter or celebrity makes some unfair remark (and at times we get results), but it's like some people don't even care to fight this - something much bigger than anything else we would have to fight.

What's wrong - is Sony too big of a company?
 
Lucilla said:
Wow, how cool that the division among MJ fans it's entertaining to some people...
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You know what, I don't even bother with kreen anymore...It's clear what his stance is on MJ now..Attacking MJ, laughing at fellow fans....What's next?
 
MusicMan26 said:
I must say, I am amazed at what has happened due to this. MJ fans used to be united, we used to fight for things (and I still do occasionally see that elsewhere). We all get together when some news reporter or celebrity makes some unfair remark (and at times we get results), but it's like some people don't even care to fight this - something much bigger than anything else we would have to fight.

What's wrong - is Sony too big of a company?
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I can't understand it either. It's so sad to see people blindly supporting this fraud, despite all the damage it did to the fan base and the absolute insult it was to Michael. Fans fight among each other over silly politics but what they need to do is stand together and demand answers. I think the problem for many is that people can throw anything at Michael yet the music is sacred, so they just can't accept that such a thing could have happened: ie Eddie Cascio used a soundalike to record songs that Michael didn't live to record, which is basically what happened. They simply refuse to even entertain the idea. I can understand that to an extent. I hate what happened, but I'm not going to lie to myself and pretend these songs are Michael when it is blatantly obvious to most that they aren't. Although I don't think we need to be looking at Sony. Were they negligent and incompetent? Yes, so were the estate. But they didn't instigate this. It was the greed and arrogance of Eddie Cascio and co that started all this. It is also sad that people feel the need to come in here and mock us for wanting answers. In fact it's really rather pathetic.
 
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StellaJackson said:
I can't understand it either. It's so sad to see people blindly supporting this fraud, despite all the damage it did to the fan base and the absolute insult it was to Michael. Fans fight among each other over silly politics but what they need to do is stand together and demand answers. I think the problem for many is that people can throw anything at Michael yet the music is sacred, so they just can't accept that such a thing could have happened: ie Eddie Cascio used a soundalike to record songs that Michael didn't live to record, which is basically what happened. They simply refuse to even entertain the idea. I can understand that to an extent. I hate what happened, but I'm not going to lie to myself and pretend these songs are Michael when it is blatantly obvious to most that they aren't. Although I don't think we need to be looking at Sony. Were they negligent and incompetent? Yes, so were the estate. But they didn't instigate this. It was the greed and arrogance of Eddie Cascio and co that started all this. It is also sad that people feel the need to come in here and mock us for wanting answers. In fact it's really rather pathetic.
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I just wanted to comment on the sacred part...Very true....Michael has been degraded all his life but it was always his MUSIC that they could never touch....But with these songs, they have....That's what makes it so hard to accept....Whether you believe it's him on the songs or not, I think BOTH sides should agree these songs should have never been released in the first place for the sheer reason at how they were constructed and that this is a direct insult to him as a musician...THAT is what makes me so upset about the whole thing....

He is NOT easily replaced, and the way these songs were made suggest those who did it, think that he indeed was easily replaceable...Whether it be an imposter, copy/pastes WORD FOR WORD to form sentences, overprocessing, or all of the above..That isn't acceptable and it just astounds me that some fans are actually ok with this...The songs are actually constructed robotic pieces of fragmented vocals in that case along with whoever the eff else is singing in that song...

Just listen to Don't Be Messin' 'Round....that is how a demo should sound and that is how it should be left for the listener now that Michael is gone..
 
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StellaJackson said:
I can't understand it either. It's so sad to see people blindly supporting this fraud, despite all the damage it did to the fan base and the absolute insult it was to Michael. Fans fight among each other over silly politics but what they need to do is stand together and demand answers. I think the problem for many is that people can throw anything at Michael yet the music is sacred, so they just can't accept that such a thing could have happened: ie Eddie Cascio used a soundalike to record songs that Michael didn't live to record, which is basically what happened. They simply refuse to even entertain the idea. I can understand that to an extent. I hate what happened, but I'm not going to lie to myself and pretend these songs are Michael when it is blatantly obvious to most that they aren't. Although I don't think we need to be looking at Sony. Were they negligent and incompetent? Yes, so were the estate. But they didn't instigate this. It was the greed and arrogance of Eddie Cascio and co that started all this. It is also sad that people feel the need to come in here and mock us for wanting answers. In fact it's really rather pathetic.
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I believe that all parties are equally responsible - Sony, the Estate, Eddie Cascio, and Jason. Any one of them could've stopped this thing. Their silence says a lot to me. Yes, Eddie is the one responsible for the recording, but at the first red flag Sony/the Estate should've said, "hey, we could be possibly committing fraud - let's not take the chance". And I'm sure both parties have probably lurked around enough to hear the comparisons that were made.
 
^^ After hearing the songs, having forensics analyse them, contacting Jason 'just to be sure' and the subsequent outrage from the fans should have been their first clues to not release these songs..
 
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Why in the meeting that was held, where they all argued about it, weren't they all just like "Well, we don't need to debate this... here's audio of him speaking of the songs, his handwriting on lyric sheets, etc."

If they have evidence like they claimed they did. However, that reminds me. They have evidence he recorded the songs yet still needed to do all these checks just to make sure. That they had to go through the whole "audio forensics" thing says to me that there is NO real valid evidence that he recorded the songs. They probably didn't even investigate the authenticity of the other songs because the evidence was already there and quite clear that it's Michael singing.

So that means at least Teddy and Eddie lied, I think, because it just makes no sense whatsoever that there is evidence he recorded the songs. They had to go through all the trouble of researching into them and even contacting Jason's agent or whoever? The evidence must have been so overwhelming! *eyeroll

I think there must have been a rush to get this project done(in time for the Holiday's or something) and Sony didn't want to waste money waiting any longer. They probably didn't even do audio forensics, they probably just had their presidents and managers listen and agree and sign a meaningless paper.

I don't know, it seems like maybe if they would have waited a little longer on the project, thought it through more, handled it with more caution and respect, they would have decided not to include the controversial Cascio songs and we'd have a better "Michael" album. But it always comes down to $$$money$$$, right?
 
^^do you guys remember the lead up to the album? It was pushed back and back and back and back. It seemed that we were expecting it to drop closer to summer (at least i was, maybe i was just delusionally excited) but we didn't get it until november. Rather than being in a rush, i think there were complications (see: these tracks) behind the scenes that pushed the deadline out, b/c SOME people on the inside must have been protesting its release, while others were insisting the tracks were real.
 
^^ No, I remember in like, July we were anticipating it....We waited til November for..........that...
 
Can the release in November have something to do with better sales just before Christmas? Don't know about the strategies of record companies, but maybe that's also a reason it lasted a while.
 
Arklove said:
^^ No, I remember in like, July we were anticipating it....We waited til November for..........that...
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Hmm. I know people were anticipating the album for a long time but was that really based on anything official? I remember that there was a poster here who claimed to have a source at Sony and who kept saying that the album would be announced every other week and all sorts of other things that, as far as I know, never turned out to be true. Was the anticipation based on more than just speculation amongst fans?
 
SoCav said:
Hmm. I know people were anticipating the album for a long time but was that really based on anything official? I remember that there was a poster here who claimed to have a source at Sony and who kept saying that the album would be announced every other week and all sorts of other things that, as far as I know, never turned out to be true. Was the anticipation based on more than just speculation amongst fans?
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It was more speculation than anything else....We were all just hanging by a thread...It was all based on what that one poster said, smooth criminal05 who said he had a Sony source...
 
Aniram said:
Why in the meeting that was held, where they all argued about it, weren't they all just like "Well, we don't need to debate this... here's audio of him speaking of the songs, his handwriting on lyric sheets, etc."

If they have evidence like they claimed they did. However, that reminds me. They have evidence he recorded the songs yet still needed to do all these checks just to make sure. That they had to go through the whole "audio forensics" thing says to me that there is NO real valid evidence that he recorded the songs. They probably didn't even investigate the authenticity of the other songs because the evidence was already there and quite clear that it's Michael singing.

So that means at least Teddy and Eddie lied, I think, because it just makes no sense whatsoever that there is evidence he recorded the songs. They had to go through all the trouble of researching into them and even contacting Jason's agent or whoever? The evidence must have been so overwhelming! *eyeroll

I think there must have been a rush to get this project done(in time for the Holiday's or something) and Sony didn't want to waste money waiting any longer. They probably didn't even do audio forensics, they probably just had their presidents and managers listen and agree and sign a meaningless paper.

I don't know, it seems like maybe if they would have waited a little longer on the project, thought it through more, handled it with more caution and respect, they would have decided not to include the controversial Cascio songs and we'd have a better "Michael" album. But it always comes down to $$$money$$$, right?
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Your spot on. The only evidence is the 12 recordings themselves. No notes, no out takes, nothing. Just 12 songs saved in ProTools, sold to Sony with the adlibs and pasted words intact. Breath after breath is pasted in too. Absolutely shameful. The only investigation they did were two phone calls from the estate to Thad Nauden, Jason's manager, and one from John Doelp to him. Nobody ever saw the results of any alleged forensic analysis. Before the 8th November when Breaking News streamed, nobody on the inside had heard anything about these so called tests, then all of a sudden, on November 10th, that statement comes out saying they had done these tests. Pure nonsense. There were indeed a lot of arguments behind the scenes, even Teddy Riley protested the songs in that listening session. But he knew in the end he had to go along with Sony if he wanted the job. Remember he had previously filed for bankruptcy. Nobody in that meeting said that they were certain it was Michael. All they said was "it sounds like it could be him", which was enough for them to move forward. They actually raised the issue of all the things that are wrong with the songs, just like we have, such as the vibrato and pronounciation, the lack of any staple MJ habits etc, but it was over ridden by the fact that "it could be him". Everyone in that session signed an NDA before they went in, so they can't say a damn thing after the fact.

All we have is the word of Eddie Cascio that the songs are Michael, and a denial from Jason via his manager. I find it surprising that people actually raise that as a defence, like him denying it must mean he didn't do it. Ridiculous. Then there are the copyright registrations which show that what we hear in the songs now was not ready to be registered until 9 months after Michael's death, with the June 27th registration simply covering the Porte demos.
 
StellaJackson said:
Your spot on. The only evidence is the 12 recordings themselves. No notes, no out takes, nothing. Just 12 songs saved in ProTools, sold to Sony with the adlibs and pasted words intact. Breath after breath is pasted in too. Absolutely shameful. The only investigation they did were two phone calls from the estate to Thad Nauden, Jason's manager, and one from John Doelp to him. Nobody ever saw the results of any alleged forensic analysis. Before the 8th November when Breaking News streamed, nobody on the inside had heard anything about these so called tests, then all of a sudden, on November 10th, that statement comes out saying they had done these tests. Pure nonsense. There were indeed a lot of arguments behind the scenes, even Teddy Riley protested the songs in that listening session. But he knew in the end he had to go along with Sony if he wanted the job. Remember he had previously filed for bankruptcy. Nobody in that meeting said that they were certain it was Michael. All they said was "it sounds like it could be him", which was enough for them to move forward. They actually raised the issue of all the things that are wrong with the songs, just like we have, such as the vibrato and pronounciation, the lack of any staple MJ habits etc, but it was over ridden by the fact that "it could be him". Everyone in that session signed an NDA before they went in, so they can't say a damn thing after the fact.

All we have is the word of Eddie Cascio that the songs are Michael, and a denial from Jason via his manager. I find it surprising that people actually raise that as a defence, like him denying it must mean he didn't do it. Ridiculous. Then there are the copyright registrations which show that what we hear in the songs now was not ready to be registered until 9 months after Michael's death, with the June 27th registration simply covering the Porte demos.
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That whole 'it could be him' mentality is exactly what made them push it forward because this release was not geared toward the fans, but the general public...If it sounds enough to possibly be him to the general public, the casual fan, then it works because they don't know his voice well enough to really point out the discrepancies at all...
 
I honestly have had the hunch for a long time now that this is something maybe Michael joked about and it has actually become a reality and gone about in completely the wrong way.

Michael was a genius and also had a sense of humor, if he heard Jason Malachi or maybe other vocalists who sounded like him, maybe he had the clever idea that it'd be fun to do a trick on the public by having a vocalist like Jason pretend to be him and see what happens, see the controversy and discussion it generates.

However, I'm thinking Michael would come completely clean about it eventually and wouldn't keep people so in the dark about it.

Like, perhaps Michael recorded very little for these songs, like a couple harmonies in the chorus or something, and they finished the verses with an impersonator like JM and figured, "oh well, this is something Michael sort of mentioned, it'll be good for the controversy Michael loved". But really it's been done in a really greedy way where they are very shady about it and use their words as carefully as possible and step around the questions to save their butts.

It's kind of hard to explain what I mean, but I hope that makes sense. I think it could have been something Michael casually mentioned, perhaps had no intention of ever doing, but they saw the $$$ opportunity with it and took it on themselves to go through with it after his death.

In almost every interview with people who worked on the album that I've seen, they seem to smile a bit when it's brought up like, "Oh yeah that's just the controversy Michael brings and it gets people talking!" They think of the controversy as something that sells, I think, even though maybe a bunch of us hardcore Michael Jackson fans might be outraged, other people will just hear about the controversy and maybe become interested and purchase the album or become interested in Michael Jackson. $$$$
 
And again my concern remains unsolved: MJ apparently would have had the time to record 12 songs in a friend's underground amateur studio in a matter of months and not many more songs in his own professional studio in a matter of years despite all the notes he left and projects he had.
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
And again my concern remains unsolved: MJ apparently would have had the time to record 12 songs in a friend's underground amateur studio in a matter of months and not many more songs in his own professional studio in a matter of years despite all the notes he left and projects he had.
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1- The Cascio songs were already written and ready for him to sing : it's one thing to write your own material, it's another to come into a studio and sing a bunch of songs other people have written for you.

2- MJ lived at the Cascio's expenses for months with his kids in tow. One can imagine he felt the least he could to to repay them was agree to sing on a few tracks their son had written.

3- MJ was a musician. What would be a lot more unbelievable was if he had lived in a house with a studio for four months and NOT recorded anything there.

In fact, had no songs been released from the Cascio sessions, a lot of people here would be saying, "Why is the Estate hiding the songs MJ must have recorded in New Jersey? I refuse to believe MJ would not have used a studio for four months in a house he was living in!"'
 
kreen;3663825 said:
1- The Cascio songs were already written and ready for him to sing : it's one thing to write your own material, it's another to come into a studio and sing a bunch of songs other people have written for you.

2- MJ lived at the Cascio's expenses for months with his kids in tow. One can imagine he felt the least he could to to repay them was agree to sing on a few tracks their son had written.

3- MJ was a musician. What would be a lot more unbelievable was if he had lived in a house with a studio for four months and NOT recorded anything there.

In fact, had no songs been released from the Cascio sessions, a lot of people here would be saying, "Why is the Estate hiding the songs MJ must have recorded in New Jersey? I refuse to believe MJ would not have used a studio for four months in a house he was living in!"'
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1 - Michael is credited as co-writer on the songs and, according to Eddie Cascio, he came up with many of the ideas, so according to the official version of events, they were not all completely written before MJ stayed there.

2 - This has already been proven to be complete nonsense. MJ stayed at the Cascio house for 9 weeks, and during some of that time he travelled to New York for projects such as the L'Uomo Vogue and Ebony photoshoots/interview. The idea that he was there for four months is completely untue. And Michael had been friends with, and stayed with the Cascios many times over the years. Why suddenly did he feel the need to record an entire album in secret that nobody knew about for years, including his own children who stayed with him, until a £250,000,000 deal with Sony was on the cards?

3 - Michael did indeed use that studio. He had Eddie record new keyboard parts for For All Time on Thriller 25 and also recorded new vocals for WBSS 2008 for that same album, vocals which sound nothing like the peculiar vocals of the Cascio tracks, despite being on the same equipment in the same studio. His main purpose for being there however was for relaxation, not for recording an entire albums worth of material. He had recording facilities at Neverland, but that doesn't mean he knocked out an album every few months. He was not a performing monkey and would not have recorded unless he really wanted to. There is no evidence to suggest he recorded anything at the Cascios except the aforementioned Thriller 25 parts.
 
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1- MJ is also credited as co-writer on all of the Invincible material, and we know what that means. Listening to all 12 songs, you can tell some of them must have had some input from MJ ("Breaking News" must be his lyrics, and "Keep your head up" is a MJ song according to producer Neff-U), but as for the rest, there's no reason to think MJ did any particular work on them. Co-writing credit, sadly, means nothing in this day and age, especially in pop music.

2- Ah, so MJ didn't stay at the Cascios' for 4 months, only for 9 weeks : well there must be a conspiracy then! If there was no indication MJ had ever stayed at the Cascios, or if Eddie Cascio didn't have a home studio, THEN we'd have reason to doubt his story. But the fact is the "official" story is 100 % supported by the facts.

3- "His main purpose for being there was for relaxation, not for recording an album"; "he would not have recorded unless he really wanted to" : why do you act like you're a close personal friend of superstar Michael Jackson? You don't know why he was there, and you don't know what he would do or not do, or why. As far as we can tell from the facts, he was there because he had no money and no home, and the idea he would record a bunch of vocals makes perfect sense, considering how much he owed the Cascios for helping him out of a jam, and how much he loved Eddie Cascio and the rest of the family -- who unlike you, did know MJ, and were indeed close personal friends of his. So I'd take their words over yours, unless you have good reason to think they're pathological liars, evil criminals and fraudsters, and there's nothing in their history that allows you to think that.

One last thing : this is MJ circa 2007 we're talking about. Just keep in mind this is the MJ who agreed to star in "Miss Cast Away and the Island Girls", and this should free you from any misconception about MJ not taking part in B-grade projects.

By the way, the Cascio tracks are actually ok, and some are good. I don't see why MJ wouldn't have liked them himself : Monster is catchier than 90 % of the stuff on Invincible.
 
I believe he could have felt like recording at the Cascio's, but it seems there'd be evidence, like he would written in a journal or something, "I'm working on these really cool songs, I'm excited to finish them, it seems like it could end up being an entire album!" or something.
 
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