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Murray Trial - 29 September - Day 3 - Discussion

^^ Murray should have been aware of Michael's COMPLETE medical history...Especially since he was administering something like propofol...

SMDH
 
ivy said:
If you listened to Chernoff's opening statement he said that Michael was going to Klein's to get Botox, Restlyne (or whatever it's called) and at the same time got Demerol shots.

So even by the defense description MJ is not an addict because he wasn't going to get a demerol fix, he was getting botox and demerol was being given with it.

I think the only question was the amount Klein giving was too much.
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The issue here is FREQUENCY. Michael's EVERY visit to Klein's office was on record, with photos (paparazzi) It was never more than three times a week. He could not possibly have become addicted to whatever medications he was given in Klein's office, at only three times a week.
 
Ramona is right , Chernof claimed MJ's problem with insomnia intensified that night because he was suffering from withdrawal . He did say MJ was addicted to demerol, he mentioned that many many times in the motion they filed before the trial.

That's why I was surprised why the prosecutors did not ask Chase to describe MJ's state in April. April was the month MJ visited Klein the most , he was there almost every other day, received as much as 4 IM injections on some dates still he was in great shape.

look what I found

Major withdrawal symptoms peak between 48 and 96 hours after the last dose and subside after about 10 to 12 days.
http://www.rapiddrugdetox.com/detox...wal-detox-from-demerol-meperidine-addiction--
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abuse.html

that's probably what they want the jurors to hear. Still in the same article a demerol addict receives his/her dose every six hours . while mj had a monthly average of 8 im injections medically justified.
 
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yes, today he said Alvarez waiting months and months before telling the police about Murray hiding the vials was a blow to the prosecution case.
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How i wish alvarez would haved told the police bout this much eariler on
 
We know EXACTLY how often Michael visited Klein. There were paparazzi photos, every time. It was NEVER more than two or three times a week. That is NOT enough to form an addiction. Plus, there was no demerol found in the autopsy report.

This is a red-herring, and no defense, at all.
 
8701girl said:
How i wish alvarez would haved told the police bout this much eariler on
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He TRIED, again, and again, to talk to police. They did not take him seriously, until AUGUST.

I though Alvarez was extremely credible, and cared a lot about Michael. But, he was trained in a certain way, which was to "defer" to authority. In that instance, that was Murray, as the doctor. He thought that Murray was packing up things to go to the hospital, and at that time, he didn't realize Murray was actually CONCEALING things!
 
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Autumn II said:
He TRIED, again, and again, to talk to police. They did not take him seriously, until AUGUST.

I though Alvarez was extremely credible, and cared a lot about Michael. But, he was trained in a certain way, which was do "defer" to authority. In that instance, that was Murray, as the doctor. He thought that Murray was packing up things to go to the hospital, and at that time, he didn't realize Murray was actually CONCEALING things!
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Justthefacts said:
He tried too. Remember his lawyer was on TV saying the cops won't interview him?
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Oh ok thanks for guys, i thought it was the other way around .
 
Besides, in the medical Q&A thread someone posted that demerol would have remained in urine for 7-9 days. And no traces of it were detected in urine. So my question is that the IM injection received in Klein's office on 16th June could have contained another substance perhaps. In fact, Walgren in one of the last preliminary hearings (29th August, I think), mentioned Midazalam, though talking in general about those IM injections.
 
Justthefacts said:
What is this about Alberto's fingerprints not being on anything?
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who said that? I didn't hear such a thing. All I heard was Alberto told the cops he collected the items, and they took his fingerprints. No one mentioned any fingerprint check and if his fingerprints were on the items or not.

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And as for Alberto not telling the police immediately. I think it's a non issue especially if the jurors were paying attention.

Alberto testified today that he didn't suspected anything and he did everything Murray told him to because he believed Murray had MJ's best interest in his mind. Even at the hospital he said to Murray "we did our best". Also apparent from testimony that bodyguards did not go upstairs, did not know much about MJ's private business and did not gossip.

So on June 25th Alberto was clueless in regards of the reason of MJ's death. He had no reason to suspect Murray. Not only Alberto but no one knew why MJ died. 50 year old man having a heart attack was an option. It could have been a natural death. So he didn't think the vials was relevant.

Also that pictures that defense likes to show of bodyguards outside the house talking to the cops and the coroner. That looks like a chat, a conversation and not a sit down real police interview.

Then he heard about Propofol and saw the bag that he put the IV bag in on TV and a light bulb went in his head. He said "I helped him to put the items away" and rushed to tell it to the cops.
 
Besides, in the medical Q&A thread someone posted that demerol would have remained in urine for 7-9 days. And no traces of it were detected in urine. So my question is that the IM injection received in Klein's office on 16th June could have contained another substance perhaps. In fact, Walgren in one of the last preliminary hearings (29th August, I think), mentioned Midazalam, though talking in general about those IM injections.
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demerol could be detected in urine in 2 to 4 days after injection. If I remember correctly he said even norpethedine was not detected in urine so what was the defense point .

I'll try to explain their strategy ok,; MJ was begging for propofol that day, Murray deprived from his usual treatment and eventually was forced to give more amounts of benzos and drugs . why? according to the article I posted before the peak of the withdrawal symptoms appears after 48 to 90 hours of the last dose. If MJ received demerol on June 22, the withdrawal symptoms might have started to show the night he died. That's their argument it seems. They r trying to justify the incredible amounts of drugs pushed into MJ's iv . .
 
Soundmind said:
demerol could be detected in urine in 2 to 4 days after injection. If I remember correctly he said even norpethedine was not detected in urine so what was the defense point .

I'll try to explain their strategy ok,; MJ was begging for propofol that day, Murray deprived from his usual treatment and eventually was forced to give more amounts of benzos and drugs . why? according to the article I posted before the peak of the withdrawal symptoms appears after 48 to 90 hours of the last dose. If MJ received demerol on June 22, the withdrawal symptoms might have started to show the night he died. That's their argument it seems. They r trying to justify the incredible amounts of drugs pushed into MJ's iv . .
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So, are you trying to say that the defense argument is going to be Michael was withdrawing so he couldn't sleep, so Murray decided to help by given him lopz, another highly addicted drug, to help. He was at the same time trying to wean Michael off of propofol with the same highly additive drug, even though you can't get physically addicted propofol.

Makes perfect sense.
 
Treacy said more of the same he has been saying since the start! But, i wasn't able to catch it all and he has a heavy accent. I will have to re-watch the interview that he did on Dr. Drew. It's on again at 12am ET. Larry Nimmer was also on and then T-mez on Joe Behar another repeat from earlier. He ofcourse defends Mj too. So if anyone is interested please watch. I'll try to give a recap later.
 
who said that? I didn't hear such a thing. All I heard was Alberto told the cops he collected the items, and they took his fingerprints. No one mentioned any fingerprint check and if his fingerprints were on the items or not
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I apologize for the confusion :) Alvarez testified repeatedly he did not touch the vials and only held the bag open and it was murray who put the vials in the bag, chernoff re asked him that question several times and eventually suggested the fingerprints colleceted by police would prove he was not trustful .I was trying to refute the defense line of questioning and wrote Alvarez fingerprints were not on those vials so who would you blame next ? again apologize for the confusion.
 
Okay watch it again and Treacy pretty much said the same as before that when he treated MJ for two processors that MJ made sure that there was anesthesiologist present. Treacy says that and Propofol was used and ofcourse in the right setting. Said that MJ was not an addict he was goin back and forth with this with Dr. Drew because we all know Drew think he was. But, Treacy said in his presence MJ was always fine. And Treacy also said the theory that MJ killed himself is wrong and he explains that MJ would of never been able to get that much Propofol into his body because he would have been knock out just by a lil bit and Drew agreed.

Then there was an interview with Larry Nimmer and Dionne Warwick son (forgot his name) not done by Dr. Drew but someone from Tru Tv InSession in For Dr. Drew and they were just talking about how misunderstood MJ was.
 
Dr. Treacy treated Mj for Vitiligo.
MJ had fillers around nose and was sensitive in that area of face.
MJ requested an Anethesist to be present
treated him 5-6 times-Anethesist always present
most MJ could give himself is 200mg shot- but would only keep him out 4min.
physically impossible to kill himself.
"perfect storm" out too.
we know Propofol was cause of death
only one who could have given it to him is Murray, because he would have to give him a "maintainence" dose to stay asleep
have dr. who gave it absence of IV setting
absence out of normal hospital setting
not being able to resusitate the patient
?? aparatus present
IV, pulse oximeter found in other rooms.
Certainly was not addicted to any drugs
Dr. Drew kept pushing addict theories
Dr argued back.
you know Propofol isnt a drug you become addicted to.
If you drank it you would probably burn your throat
"Maybe there were a lot of other reasons why MJ wanted to be labeled a drug addict"
Insurance payout would payout would be totally different.
going to London- Traecy said Murray wasnt able to practice there wasnt registered with GMC or MCI
wondered what his plan was.


Hmmm? I really wonder what the insurance policies say for everyone.

I like this guy. Is he on witness list?
 
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Soundmind said:
MJ: blood 4.1 immediate death within one minute or at least heart stopped within one minute. Urine 0.10 /0.15 very low compared to the amount of urine produced, in total the dose that whole night did not exceed 200mg= 20ml vial and forget that 1000mg vial he did not use it and had never intended to use it simply cus Murray did not know how to use it , focus on the small empty 200mg vial and the two syringe with propofol traces found at the scene , one was used at the beginning to induce sleep and the other that killed MJ , Murray inejcted it RAPIDLY . Liver= 6 (not sure) meaning although he receieved propofol before the fatal injection , time had passed before the two injections , how much time? No one could tell .Because propofol was found in both urine samples probably hours earlier. I believe it was the induction dose the injection he started the session with , so yes he lied , MJ did not beg him for anything , Murray did start with propofol that night and contrary to what he made MJ believe all those days he used lorazepam to maintain sleep since day one .starting the process to wean him off propofol in June 23 was another fat lie . He bought boxes of lorazepam and midazolam in April and what we heard on that voicerecording was the result of lorazepam . MJ started to wake up and he injected him with a relatively average dose so he would experience the unique feelings associated with awaking from propofol , just to make sure MJ did not figure out what he was doing , average dose but rapid killed him immediately and it's documented an average propofol dosage could kill if given rapidly. [/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]
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OH wow thanks for the detailed soundmind now that makes more sense!
 
claudiadoina said:
Maybe a stupid question but isn't allowed to show the members of the jury because I didn't recall to see them at all?
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Id be interested, too.
But I recall someone saying that they were shown. Although I didnt see them at all, too.
 
No Jury will not be shown. For safty reasons and that's how it always is when Trial cases are aired. Only after the verdict if they decide to talk to the media they can show their faces because they have served their duty. Kinda like the Jury did when the MJ case was done.
 
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