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Murray Trial - 29 September - Day 3 - Discussion

Okay, so next witnesses:

Richard Senneff – Los Angeles fire fighter/paramedic
Martin Blount – Los Angeles fire fighter/paramedic
Harry Daliwal – Regional retail sales manager with AT&T, retrieved text messages from Murray’s phone
Jeff Strohn – Records custodian for Sprint/Nextel
Dr. Richelle Cooper – Physician working at the UCLA Medical Center emergency room the day Michael Jackson was brought in
Dr. Thao Nguyen – Cardiology fellow at UCLA, s present in the emergency room when Jackson was brought in
Dan Myers – Senior Homicide Detective with the LAPD
Sade Anding – Houston cocktail waitress who dated Conrad Murray, she was on the phone with Murray when Michael Jackson went into distress
Bridgette Morgan – Friend of Conrad Murray, she called him 30 minutes before Jackson went into distress
Nicole Alvarez – Actress and ex-girlfriend of Conrad Murray, with whom he had a child in April 2009
Elissa Fleak – Investigator for the Los Angeles County Coroner
Stephen Marx – DEA computer forensics examiner
Tim Lopez – Pharmacist, testified Conrad Murray purchased several drugs including propofol
Jaime Lintemoot – Senior Criminalist for the Los Angeles County Coroner
Orlando Martinez – LAPD Detective
Dr. Christopher Rogers – Forensic pathologist with the L.A. County Coroner’s Office
Dr. Richard Ruffalo – Anesthesiologist and clinical pharmacologist
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Soundmind said:
at least someone finally gave an accurate figure of how much propofol was found in MJ's body. still he got many things wrong. He's assuming the two injections were given immediately after each other which is not really true.
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Can you elaborate for us? Could he have woken up after the 100ccbottle and administered the second even if it did have a certain time frame between the two? Sorry hope I'm understanding what your trying to say
 
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Soundmind said:
at least someone finally gave an accurate figure of how much propofol was found in MJ's body. still he got many things wrong. He's assuming the two injections were given immediately after each other which is not really true.
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well guess we will find out when that part of the testimony is heard. Probably when toxicology testifies
 
Nicole Alvarez's profession is wrong, she ain't no actress, she's a stripper and when did they break up anyway?
 
Thanks for reply Elusive, I expect/hope that when experts give evidence the pros' will shape some kind of theory. As for today, Alberto & Kia did a great job, for some reason I was worried about Kia but she came through with flying colours.
 
Can you elaborate for us? Could he have woken up after the 100ccbottle and administered the second even if it did have a certain time frame between the two? Sorry hope I'm understanding what your trying to say
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<o:p></o:p>
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&#8220;In order to assess the relevancy of measured propofol blood concentrations of this case they were compared to other fatal cases of propofol abuse&#8221; <o:p></o:p>
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The first case concerned a female radiographer who said to have abused propofol for a prolonged period of time. Blood 0.22 ug/ml, urine: 5.4 ug/ml, liver: 1, 4 ug/ml<o:p></o:p>
They said this about her blood concentration:&#8221;In the case of the radiographer a longer survival time has to be assumed (compared to the male nurse above). Blood concentration dropped because she survived, see low concentration did not mean she did not abuse propofol for hours before her death, they only helped indicate that she survived until propofol redistributed from her blood and liver. Urine: 5.4 very high, prolonged abuse.<o:p></o:p>
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The second case regards the suicide of a medical doctor who used two hypodemic needles in the back of his head for an infusion of propofol . Blood: 2.5, urine: not determined, Liver: 22 ug/ml <o:p></o:p>
determining the survival time " the possibility of different pharmacokinetics due to the absence of a bolus injection has to be taken into account" again , that what it indicates he survived for a few minutes, blood was circulating concentrations in blood dropped due to the rapid distribution thus were becoming higher in his liver . Urine not determined because it was suicide, he did not use propofol in the minutes or hours preceding his death, liver 22, have enough time to redistribute from blood to liver before death. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
The third case a 37 &#8211;years-old Chinese male suspected of having fatally self administered an intravenous dose of 1600 mg of propofol (12 to 15) times the dose required for the induction of anaesthesia. Blood (femoral): 2.5, liver 22 ug/ml, urine: 3.6 ug.ml. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Look at the above cases in the abstract they said in order to understand you have to compare with other cases) <o:p></o:p>
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MJ: blood 4.1 immediate death within one minute or at least heart stopped within one minute. Urine 0.10 /0.15 very low compared to the amount of urine produced, in total the dose that whole night did not exceed 200mg= 20ml vial and forget that 1000mg vial he did not use it and had never intended to use it simply cus Murray did not know how to use it , focus on the small empty 200mg vial and the two syringe with propofol traces found at the scene , one was used at the beginning to induce sleep and the other that killed MJ , Murray inejcted it RAPIDLY . Liver= 6 (not sure) meaning although he receieved propofol before the fatal injection , time had passed before the two injections , how much time? No one could tell .Because propofol was found in both urine samples probably hours earlier. I believe it was the induction dose the injection he started the session with , so yes he lied , MJ did not beg him for anything , Murray did start with propofol that night and contrary to what he made MJ believe all those days he used lorazepam to maintain sleep since day one .starting the process to wean him off propofol in June 23 was another fat lie . He bought boxes of lorazepam and midazolam in April and what we heard on that voicerecording was the result of lorazepam . MJ started to wake up and he injected him with a relatively average dose so he would experience the unique feelings associated with awaking from propofol , just to make sure MJ did not figure out what he was doing , average dose but rapid killed him immediately and it's documented an average propofol dosage could kill if given rapidly. <o:p></o:p>
 
Thanks again guys for the recaps and everything. Alberto and Kai did good. Also if anyone is having a hard time with this trial and needs someone to talk to feel free to PM me.
 
Anderson cooper with Dr.Sanjai and Geragos discussing Demerol . Just for those who don't know MJ visited Klien the most in April. In May he visited him 8 times , with 8 IM injections in total. In June he visited him 6 times with 8 IM injections in total . How can any one claim MJ was addicted to demerol is beyond me .
 
Soundmind said:
Anderson cooper with Dr.Sanjai and Geragos discussing Demerol . Just for those who don't know MJ visited Klien the most in April. In May he visited him 8 times , with 8 IM injections in total. In June he visited him 6 times with 8 IM injections in total . How can any one claim MJ was addicted to demerol is beyond me .
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To me, the most annoying part of the Demerol is this. If Michael was addicted and got his drugs from Klien, why did he had to go to his office everyday or every other day? Couldn't he do like what most addicts do and take the drugs at the comforts of his own home with a prescription from the doctor instead on always going to the doctor's office to get injections? He didn't even have a reserve supple at his house to get his fix. What kind of addict does that?

Why is it that Michael have to be so abnormal on everything to the point that he can't even act like a normal drug addict?
 
rita.gibson said:
Thanks for reply Elusive, I expect/hope that when experts give evidence the pros' will shape some kind of theory. As for today, Alberto & Kia did a great job, for some reason I was worried about Kia but she came through with flying colours.
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I agree
 
Klein doesn't help his own case when he goes on his FB and says MJ was addicted to Propofol since the 80's not Demoral and then goes on defending himself instead.
 
Soundmind said:
based on prince tweet the kids probably are following the trial.
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I thought the same as well when I first saw his tweet and had to wonder just how hard this must be for them.

BTW.....whats up with Geragos? how can he be saying the defense has been giving as good as they have been getting? how does he come to that conclusion? at least try to be objective and not jump on the defense bandwagon just because you're a defense attorney Geragos! He seems to have been pro defense from the get go, you would think he would try to appear partial given that MJ was once his client or is he bitter about being ditched for Meseareau?
 
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Klein doesn't help his own case when he goes on his FB and says MJ was addicted to Propofol since the 80's not Demoral and then goes on defending himself instead.
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Not allowing Klien to take the stand was a very good idea , on the other hand allowing his records is not only good it is un my opinion great . Why ? this fool will call MJ an addict on the stand regardless of everything and he will throw MJ under the bus , he would make up stories and make headlines on MJ's expense but his records would do the OPPOSITE .
 
Urine 0.10 /0.15 very low compared to the amount of urine produced,
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Yes, but once blood circulation stopped I suppose there would not be any more production of urine... and I guess (good question for the medical team) the "recent" propofol given would not be detected. (I am assuming, but it seems logical)
 
Ramona122003 said:
To me, the most annoying part of the Demerol is this. If Michael was addicted and got his drugs from Klien, why did he had to go to his office everyday or every other day? Couldn't he do like what most addicts do and take the drugs at the comforts of his own home with a prescription from the doctor instead on always going to the doctor's office to get injections? He didn't even have a reserve supple at his house to get his fix. What kind of addict does that?

Why is it that Michael have to be so abnormal on everything to the point that he can't even act like a normal drug addict?
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Thank You!!!!!!
 
Wasn't Gregaros (spelling) saying yesterday that the jury would most likely be hung and it will be difficult for them to make a decision because Muarry is a doctor. Well it is good that Michael replaced him with TMez!!! Gregeros sounds like another Chernoff.
 
Ramona122003 said:
To me, the most annoying part of the Demerol is this. If Michael was addicted and got his drugs from Klien, why did he had to go to his office everyday or every other day? Couldn't he do like what most addicts do and take the drugs at the comforts of his own home with a prescription from the doctor instead on always going to the doctor's office to get injections? He didn't even have a reserve supple at his house to get his fix. What kind of addict does that?

Why is it that Michael have to be so abnormal on everything to the point that he can't even act like a normal drug addict?
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If you listened to Chernoff's opening statement he said that Michael was going to Klein's to get Botox, Restlyne (or whatever it's called) and at the same time got Demerol shots.

So even by the defense description MJ is not an addict because he wasn't going to get a demerol fix, he was getting botox and demerol was being given with it.

I think the only question was the amount Klein giving was too much.
 
ivy said:
this is the first drawing

bi9pv7.jpg


I see a stand , an IV bag with a bottle inside and tubing coming out of it.

The most recent drawing was a drawing of an IV bag only
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Well, now I see it more clearly and you are right. I could not make up that drawing but Chernoff's point was very clear...
 
yes, today he said Alvarez waiting months and months before telling the police about Murray hiding the vials was a blow to the prosecution case. And then they talked about Klein and the demerol issue. Idiots by all means. Sanjai is even more of an idiot than Geragos.
 
I think the only question was the amount Klein giving was too much.
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It was not too much , if it was too much MJ would have become addicted to it.

Ortega said he saw MJ shaking and in that poor state on June 19 , right? MJ visited Klein on June 16 and actually received only 1 IM injection .

He visited him on June 22 and also received 1 IM injection still the very next day delivered an outstanding performance . See, it will be very easy to refute the defense claims.
 
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Soundmind said:
yes, today he said Alvarez waiting months and months before telling the police about Murray hiding the vials was a blow to the prosecution case. And then they talked about Klein and the demerol issue. Idiots by all means. Sanjai is even more of an idiot than Geragos.
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So basically all these fools gather to show they are of one mind. Correct me if I am wrong but I thought we heard about Muarry hiding the vials before during the preliminary? How does he mean Alvarez waited months before telling police. As long as he said it before the trial, I cannot see any blow the pros case.

It seems some people really want the defense to win this case, not because Muarry is innocent but for some other motive.
 
Soundmind said:
Not allowing Klien to take the stand was a very good idea , on the other hand allowing his records is not only good it is un my opinion great . Why ? this fool will call MJ an addict on the stand regardless of everything and he will throw MJ under the bus , he would make up stories and make headlines on MJ's expense but his records would do the OPPOSITE .
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No. He would NOT call Michael an "addict." Records are not really needed, anyway? Michael was photographed going in and out of Klein's office, two or three times a week, but not more. Demerol is a narcotic. Three shots a week, cannot cause addiction. Daily shots, may cause addiction, in which case the person would be SICK with withdrawal symptoms. Given the time-frame of Michael's visits to Klein. . WELL documented, this was not possible.

Klein, and demerol, are NON-issues.

Next?
 
ivy said:
If you listened to Chernoff's opening statement he said that Michael was going to Klein's to get Botox, Restlyne (or whatever it's called) and at the same time got Demerol shots.

So even by the defense description MJ is not an addict because he wasn't going to get a demerol fix, he was getting botox and demerol was being given with it.

I think the only question was the amount Klein giving was too much.
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I heard that part, but the defense has been trying to imply for days that Klien got him hook to something and Michael was in withdrawals. I said this is bull because Michael never try to get a fix, not to mention Murray given lopz. I also failed to see how Murray 'didn't' know about Klien given Michael's skin condition, the fact that Klien been Michael's doctor for over 20 years, and it was all over TMZ about Michael's visits. So the whole. 'he didn't know that Klien was given him', is BS on so many levels.
 
Ramona122003 said:
I heard that part, but the defense has been trying to imply for days that Klien got him hook to something and Michael was in withdrawals. I said this is bull because Michael never try to get a fix, not to mention Murray given lopz. I also failed to see how Murray 'didn't' know about Klien given Michael's skin condition, the fact that Klien been Michael's doctor for over 20 years, and it was all over TMZ about Michael's visits. So the whole. 'he didn't know that Klien was given him', is BS on so many levels.
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It's complete BS. Also, wouldn't it be negligent to not know exactly what procedures your patients undergo by another doctor? There could be bad reactions with different drugs mixing..
 
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