Murray Trial - Day 14 - October 20 - Discussion

he wasnt hiding the bottle in the saline bag he was using the saline bag to put the bottle in while the infusion was running.he then told alberto to move it cause i guess at first he thought it didint matter cause he had already removed the tubing

thanks, i mixed up everything.. i misunderstood bowen9999 post...
 
Okay, but if he wanted to hide the propofol then why did he put the bottle in the saline bag for everyone to see it? He could have get rid of the bottle too somehow,

and why even a propofol bag in a saline IV? whats the reason?

When propofol was being infused into MJ he had put the bottle in the slit saline bag rather than hanging it up, why we can only guess he didn't realise there was a plastic handle on the bottle he could use to hang it...when MJ died he disconnected the tubing..as for why he left the bottle in the saline bag he did get alvarez to take it down and put it in the blue bag which was hidden in the closet of another room. He probably intended to take that as well but didn't have time due to the paramedics being there, and then no one would drive him back to the house after MJ's death to clear the evidence away.
 
Dr Safer

Walgren

IV set up demonstration ; dr Shafer has brought the same equipment or equivalent as what CM used (based on Sea Coast reports, and equipment found at MJ's house) :

bag of saline , hangs it on IV pole
infusion set (tubing), stick the spike into the saline bag
in the infusion set, there's an injection port with a rubber stopper where you can stick a needle, to give medication.
Dr Shafer is aware that there was no propofol in the long tube, only in the short tube below the y connector, that makes sense to him.
22 gage catheter (type and size that was used on MJ) : has a metal needle, the catheter remains in the vein, the needle doesn't.
Dr Shafer attaches the catheter to the tubing and shows that the fluid goes through quickly
A non vented system is an Iv tubing where there is no way to introduce air (there is no need for a vented tubing with the saline, as the saline bag will shrink)
It is not a complete set up for an infusion of propofol, you would need another long tubing, vented (that would allow air to come up)
CM bought vented infusion sets , cf Sea Coast records
Dr Shafer shows a vented infusion set, similar to what CM bought; it has a hole on the top near the chamber to allow air to come in.
This tubing was designed to be used with an infusion pump, but there was no pump
The spike of this tubing would have been stuck into the bottle, consistent with the tear in the propofol bottle found at Mjs house
Sticks the spike into a bottle of propofol, hangs it on the pole with a sort of plastic handle. Propofol found at Mjs house had the same plastic handle.

Stipulation : the handle of the bottle was lifted for demonstration, when it was found, it was still attached to the bottle, unused;

CM said he turned off the saline before infusing propofol with a syringe: Dr Shafer shows the clamp, and shows how you can stop the flow with the clamp.

Infusing 25mg of propofol with a syringe as CM said he did : Dr Shafer sticks a syringe with propofol into the injection port , or y connector. What happens is that the propofol doesn't come out of the tube, because the saline is turned off. The saline is not coming down to push the propofol out. So CM's description of 3 to 5 minutes is not possible if he had turned off the saline as he said. If you unclamp the saline, the propofol comes out.

Puts the tube with the spike into the propofol bottle : dr shafer closes the vent, and closes everything, a little propofol comes out, but it stops. If you open the vent, the propofol runs though. Now he can hook the vented line with a needle to the y connector. Dr Shafer says it's an extremely unsafe setup, gravity rules, there is «*gravity competition*» between the two bags : if you lift a bag, there is more force in this bag, the other slows down. If the saline stops , propofol speeds up. The only way to control the speed is the clamps, there is one on each tube.

Slit bag : in case CM didn't know there was a handle or didn't want to use it. Dr Shafer has never seen it done, but demonstrates that it's possible; and says it doesn't make a difference;

From this point, the clamp is the only thing you have to control the speed of the propofol.

Thats why the long tubing found at the house didn't test positive for propofol, but the short tubing did : another long tube was connected to the popofol bottle.

If you change the rate of saline, it changes the rate of the propofol. That's why this system is very dangerous.

Says something about the tube wide tube/narrow tube, i didn't catch it, sorry

Dr Shafer has dissmantled the long vented tubing that had propofol in it , it fits in the hand. This tubing is a large one because of infusion pump device , the tubing would fit in the pocket.

Walgren does a recap of Dr Shafer's testimony s far :

Noted 17 egregious deviations of care, 4 of them are also unetical, has shown a video about the way propofol is safely given, has explained that oral consumption propofol was impossible, that MJ received more than 4mg lorazepam, that at 10 am it was impossible that MJ swalllowed lorazepam, simulated the IV set up , and that the infusion line could be compacted in one hand;

CM was the direct cause of MJ's death even if MJ had self injected and swallowed lorazepam . CM still would be the direct cause of MJ's death : CM brought propofol, CM started the IV line, left access to the medication to a patient who was probably dependent on benzos, CM was entrusted by MJ for his safety. CM is responsible fr every drop of propofol or lorazepam.

Recess until tomorrow 12 45 LA time
 
from the news article section. this is gonna get nasty

Michael Jackson Manslaughter Trial: Conrad Murray Defense Witness Calls Prosecutor a "Scumbag"
Today 1:00 PM PDT by Natalie Finn and Baker Machado


UPDATE 4 p.m.: Court has adjourned for the day and will resume Friday at 12:45 p.m. The defense, which had expected to start its case tomorrow, has yet to cross-examine Dr. Shafer.

UPDATE: 3:10 p.m.: White, who described Shafer as a friend and colleague, tells E! News that Deputy District Attorney David Walgren's treatment of the evidence has been "unethical and unconscionable." Shafer's testimony, however, has changed the way he thinks of him, White says. "I am going to take the high road, not the low road with him," he adds. "I was his teacher when he was a medical student. The truth will come out. It always does."

UPDATE 3:05 p.m. Pastor immediately called for a break after Murray lost his cool in response to Shafer using an actual infusion stand to demonstrate how Murray could have dosed Michael Jackson with propofol. "Can you believe that?" Murray whispered to Dr. Paul White, an expected defense witness. "What a scumbag," White told the media seated near him.
 
well today was totally an emotional exhausting draining day, Shafer and walgren did an amazing job. Did I hear that right...Shafer said that he thought that Michael died between 11:30 and 11:45?
 
murray is the ****** scumbag not shafer and certainly not the prosecution, I'm effing tired of murray acting like the freaking victim! As for White he seems to be an attention whore talking to E! News and the media, Shafer already stated White was NOT his boss?
for the truth coming out, white is right the truth always coems out, and imo it has already come out, murray killed him, murray his incompetence, recklessness and laziness. there is nothing more to get out, prick. blame the victim (whose name still IS MICHAEL JACKSON AND NOT CONRAT MURDERER btw) all you want, facts still remain the same.
 
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When propofol was being infused into MJ he had put the bottle in the slit saline bag rather than hanging it up, why we can only guess he didn't realise there was a plastic handle on the bottle he could use to hang it...when MJ died he disconnected the tubing..as for why he left the bottle in the saline bag he did get alvarez to take it down and put it in the blue bag which was hidden in the closet of another room. He probably intended to take that as well but didn't have time due to the paramedics being there, and then no one would drive him back to the house after MJ's death to clear the evidence away.


He was suppose to hang the propofol bottle but couldn't so he puts it in the bag? Isn't that seriously wrong?

Thanks... one question.. might sound dumb as heck but whatever lol... so is there a difference, meaning more dangerous, to put the bottle in the saline bag rather hanging it? Or it really doesnt matter?
 
Thanks... one question.. might sound dumb as heck but whatever lol... so is there a difference, meaning more dangerous, to put the bottle in the saline bag rather hanging it? Or it really doesnt matter?

That's what I wondered too. If Murray is mad too bad. The judge allowed the demonstration. How else can the jury really understand how it all works?
 
I still can't get over the 40 mg Lorazepam. That equals to 20 2 mg pills or 40 1 mg pills. No one would ever take that much, unless they wanted to commit suicide. Why would a doctor give a patient that much?
 
Thanks... one question.. might sound dumb as heck but whatever lol... so is there a difference, meaning more dangerous, to put the bottle in the saline bag rather hanging it? Or it really doesnt matter?
no it makes no difference. u hang the bottle up thats normal. doesnt matter that it was in a saline bag or hung up via the handle on the bottle. White sounds like a spoilt brat upset because shaffer is now his boss.shaffer was very likeable on the stand i doubt white will be. pressures getting to all of them
 
someone make the judge aware of another one of the defense's team talking to the media. they need to be warned/fined now. enough is enough.
 
agree elusive sounds like soar grapes as far as white is considered, his ego is hurt, despite being a few decades older than shafer, shafer's now his boss
 
Okay, but if he wanted to hide the propofol then why did he put the bottle in the saline bag for everyone to see it? He could have get rid of the bottle too somehow,

and why even a propofol bottle in a saline bag? whats the reason?

My guess: He didn't have time to collect everything. Remember, he hid stuff with Alvarez present. He prolly figured security had no idea what they were looking at and they didn't. Alvarez says he only realized the stuff he helped collect was of interest when he saw the stuff mentioned/being carried out in bags on the news. At the time he collected the stuff, tho, he didn't think it was suspicious and thought Murray was preparing things to be taken to the hospital. Murray's plan was to get back into the house and collect the bags and the rest of the items but security foiled that plan. He made sure to get majority of the propofol out of the way before EMTs showed up.
 
isn't white also a member of the defense team, their consultant? not just a random expert? that way he should fall under the gag order imo. even IF it's just for lawyers. also doesnt pastor instruct everyone not to discuss their testimony or the court room proceedings with anyone? I think that applies to witnesses too
 
Thanks... one question.. might sound dumb as heck but whatever lol... so is there a difference, meaning more dangerous, to put the bottle in the saline bag rather hanging it? Or it really doesnt matter?

There isn't any was said.
 
thanks god security didn't let him get back into the house, just imagine. though they had no idea about how murray fcked up, their gut feelings told them then and there that something ain't right, with this clown wanting to get into the house.
 
isn't white also a member of the defense team, their consultant? not just a random expert? that way he should fall under the gag order imo. even IF it's just for lawyers. also doesnt pastor instruct everyone not to discuss their testimony or the court room proceedings with anyone? I think that applies to witnesses too

I have the same question. How can he dare??
 
Someone should tell the judge if this guy is talking to the media. Shafer is White's boss?
 
n.. White sounds like a spoilt brat upset because shaffer is now his boss.shaffer was very likeable on the stand i doubt white will be. pressures getting to all of them

Yes, and why is he allowed to talk to reporters?

Marebear: White was Shafer's teacher once.
 
I still can't get over the 40 mg Lorazepam. That equals to 20 2 mg pills or 40 1 mg pills. No one would ever take that much, unless they wanted to commit suicide. Why would a doctor give a patient that much?

I think that if tolerance is developed, the doctor can adjust the dose. Not that high to be clear, the patient should always be refferred to a rehab center or whatever, but the human body can take it.



L.e.: I'm not sure that the dosage is equivalent to the amount you spoke of in pills, but the theory still stands. It is possible to develop resistance to any benzodiazepine, they are highly addictive and this is a common side effect.
 
That is an ASTOUNDING amount of lorazepam. We have no reason to NOT believe this witness, a total expert in his field.

A drip? But WHY would that much lorazepam have been in there in the first place? Unlike propofol, it takes awhile to leave the system, and it is cumulative. That was enough lorazepam to put down an elephant! This was a LETHAL dose, of both lorazepam and propofol. This no longer sounds like a mistake. If anyone can prove differently, and better, than this witness, good luck with that? I find this to be shocking, actually.


Is this just going to get lost in defense's crazy theories coming up next? Which the media will lap up? This is just insane! How could the prosecutor call it involuntary manslaughter when he knew all this? How could Murray go to jail for only a few months for essentially having killed Michael Jackson. I CANNOT believe what I'm reading!!!! WTF!!!!

I cannot feel worse for Michael.....to think he was reduced to depending on a piece of shit like this.
 
from the news article section. this is gonna get nasty

Did someone not tell this guy that there is a gag order? And calling the guy a scumbag is taken high road?

agree elusive sounds like soar grapes as far as white is considered, his ego is hurt, despite being a few decades older than shafer, shafer's now his boss

Agree with all. White has been in a funky mood all day, it seems...even with the defense team. Chernoff has his hands full. HA!
 
Agree with all. White has been in a funky mood all day, it seems...even with the defense team. Chernoff has his hands full. HA!

He has a right to. Shafer basically made him out to be no better than a first year student - with a few phrases he flushed his entire career down the drain. Anyone would take it personally.
 
it serves him right though, there is a reason why shafer was supposed to get that lifetime award for anasthesiologists and not white.
 
it serves him right though, there is a reason why shafer was supposed to get that lifetime award for anasthesiologists and not white.

I didn't say it didn't. My guess is that Shafer was shocked when he read the report where White was stating that Michael could of drank the Propofol. Shafer doesn't strike me as a man who does or says things he does not strongly believe in.
 
idk why, but something tells me white would've never suggested/written such a report if the victing wasn't Michael but someone else.
 
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