Murray Trial- Day 16 - October 24 - Discussion

[marebear]

Thanks about the red bull. I wasn't sure what that was.

 

[Ingelief]

what is a hostile witness???
Im sorry i missed this trial day. I was taken to the hospital on sunday in emergency in an ambu. Im back now, but i missed this day at all.

who testified for the defense? And was it good for us or shocking?? Its the first day of witness by the defense right? Hope some will help me with these questions. Thx!

 

[jaydom7]

What I don't understand is how MJ, the most famous man in the world wasn't referred to the best sleep specialist in the world? All of these doctors, nurses etc knew he had sleep problems but not one of them referred him to a specialist in sleep/anxiety???:beee:

 

[max000]

Agree. yeah shes abit scatty with her notes. but aleast shes got some and is making many points about the tests she did on mj. the sort of tests murray should have. walgren will no doubt make a point of that on cross. yeah in bias but if im on the jury id be feeling pretty sorry for mj right now. the most famous guy in the world asking this woman to sit by his bed and watch him sleep.someone whos vertually a stranger and could take advantage.

Notes... minor detail, small potatoes. Sitting by his bed watching this reclusive man sleep, enough said. There is sugarfree Red Bull.

 

[8701girl]

what is a hostile witness???
Im sorry i missed this trial day. I was taken to the hospital on sunday in emergency in an ambu. Im back now, but i missed this day at all.

who testified for the defense? And was it good for us or shocking?? Its the first day of witness by the defense right? Hope some will help me with these questions. Thx!

I think a hostile witness is like a witness even though maybe in the defense/ prosectuion list they could say things that may not help thier case

 

[ivy]

what is a hostile witness???
Im sorry i missed this trial day. I was taken to the hospital on sunday in emergency in an ambu. Im back now, but i missed this day at all.

who testified for the defense? And was it good for us or shocking?? Its the first day of witness by the defense right? Hope some will help me with these questions. Thx!

first of all I hope you are okay now.

hostile witness is a witness that provides adverse testimony to the calling party. For example if you call a witness you expect them to support your argument. A hostile witness is a witness that's called by you but not supporting your argument.

 

[xthunderx2]

Intresting that we have had no philips yet. a few days back chernoff mentioned sonething about him not been available till monday as if he were saying he would be the first witness .

yes I have been thinking about that too. guess we will have to wait and see what he is gonna say, We know that he is gonna be guarded in his testimony because of the other lawsuit.

 

[rita.gibson]

I was getting wound up by Lee...( spoilt by the speed of the other 5 witness's) "They were so fast I actually thought we might get a verdict tomorrow"
Up to now Lee has shown she takes note's, and regarding the Red Bull she was able to show that Michael will follow medical advise and wanted to be healthy.
When it comes up that MJ asked her for/about propofol If I'm right she should also say (the doctor said it was safe). Even if no doc name was given it's pretty obvious who that was. If none of that happens then at least Lee will give Chernoff a taste of his own medicine.

 

[Popescu]

I dont think that they can refute those charges,,,they are what they are, They cannot say that Murray had something in that room that he did not have. The rest of this case is just smoke and mirrors....they have to get through the case....they are trying to make these docs say that MJ was doctor shopping...and that he asked for propofol. which has nothing to do with Murray's standard of care. They can put 20 docs up there and they can all say that MJ asked for prop....that has nothing to do with Murray and his standard of care on June 25th, The defense knows this....they are just trying to get the focus off of murray.

It's very important in my opinion that they'd all also say they said NO.
This is what this case is all about. As a doctor, you don't do that. You can't, because people might die. And then, it will be your fault.

 

[xthunderx2]

It's very important in my opinion that they'd all also say they said NO.
This is what this case is all about. As a doctor, you don't do that. You can't, because people might die. And then, it will be your fault.

yes I agree we KNOW that is NOT exceptable...but that is NOT what this case is about,,this case is about Conrad Murray,,,Killing Michael Jackson...by not meeting his patients needs with the Proper standard of care. I agree...I hope they would all say no as well. If Murray had the proper equipment in place and didnt leave his patient...Michael would still be here.

 

[indranee]

I can't believe he was drinking Red Bull. That thing keeps me awake for hours into the night if I drink it after 4pm.

Anyway, I missed Lee's direct. Did Walgren cross her?

 

[Justthefacts]

What is the big deal about Michael drinking red bull? When she told him to stop he did so clearly red bull was not the problem

 

[ivy]

What is the big deal about Michael drinking red bull? When she told him to stop he did so clearly red bull was not the problem

It's not a "problem". People are just trying to understand his insomnia better. I drank redbull once in my life and it made my heart race. and didn't TMZ had a story saying that Michael drank Coca cola? I wonder if he was drinking caffeine / sugar for energy and then it was having an effect on him?

one thing Lee also said that when she watched Michael he was able to sleep 5 hours on herbal remedies. To me that doesn't sound so bad. It seems like if he went to sleep therapy or took one sleeping pill he could have slept longer. I don't know. I'm confused.

 

[8701girl]

My bro likes to drink red bull and those kind of energry drinks and i too drink it sometimes . But i think with those type of energy drinks u need to be careful on how much to drink of it as it can keep u awake for ages

 

[Ramona122003]

It's not a "problem". People are just trying to understand his insomnia better. I drank redbull once in my life and it made my heart race. and didn't TMZ had a story saying that Michael drank Coca cola? I wonder if he was drinking caffeine / sugar for energy and then it was having an effect on him?

one thing Lee also said that when she watched Michael he was able to sleep 5 hours on herbal remedies. To me that doesn't sound so bad. It seems like if he went to sleep therapy or took one sleeping pill he could have slept longer. I don't know. I'm confused.

Although five hours may sound good, we also have to remember something that sleep specialists call the sleep debt. Namely, the average adult male needs between 7-8 hours worth of sleep. If one doesn't sleep for that long, the hours you miss is added to your body. For example, if you sleep for five hours one night, you need to make it up the next night so you may end of sleeping for ten hours or making those hours by napping during the day.

So, if Michael was lucky to sleep five hours a day for a week, he will still have a 21 hour sleep debt he would need to make-up just for that one week. These hours quickly add up in a hurry when we start added weeks and months.

 

[Autumn II]

Here is what I'm not understanding. Lee hasn't gotten to the punch-line yet, about Michael "asking her for propofol." (I expect that's coming, tomorrow) But today, she was describing seeing Michael in April of 2009. In April of 2009, according to shipping documents, Murray was buying boatloads of propofol. So WHY would Michael ask Lee about propofol in April? Maybe he wouldn't/didn't? I just don't buy it that "he wasn't sold on Murray." Murray was BUYING the stuff, by the carload and presumably he was using it, too? The dates just don't add up, do they?

Lee's purpose for the defense is to imply/say Michael was asking around for propofol, therefore making him look like he was "doctor shopping" -- the only defense Murray really has (except that is NO defense, at all).

 

[Petrarose]

Thanks for the updates. It seems the defense is presenting witnesses who do not support their theories or Muarry. Good job defense. We have not learned anything new from the defense today that we did not already know since 09, so this embarrassment should should rap up soon. I wonder if they will keep White for last.

 

[ivy]

Here is what I'm not understanding. Lee hasn't gotten to the punch-line yet, about Michael "asking her for propofol." (I expect that's coming, tomorrow) But today, she was describing seeing Michael in April of 2009. In April of 2009, according to shipping documents, Murray was buying boatloads of propofol. So WHY would Michael ask Lee about propofol in April? Maybe he wouldn't/didn't? I just don't buy it that "he wasn't sold on Murray." Murray was BUYING the stuff, by the carload and presumably he was using it, too? The dates just don't add up, do they?

Lee's purpose for the defense is to imply/say Michael was asking around for propofol, therefore making him look like he was "doctor shopping" -- the only defense Murray really has (except that is NO defense, at all).

I really do not understand what defense is trying to achieve.

Michael asked for Propofol? Okay I don't think anyone - prosecution- denying it. Metzger and Lee will say Michael asked but they refused. It's only going to make Murray look worse IMO. Adams apparently is going to say he only gave it for procedures.

Michael was asking for Propofol because he wasn't getting it? But Murray already said that he was giving propofol for 6 weeks.

So I can't understand the defense's reasoning.

That's aside I think it seems like Michael was either looking for a second person and/or planning to replace Murray.

 

[suzynyc]

to be clear - she's a hostile witness. so is Metzger and Adams.



It's an energy drink that's really high on caffeine and sugar

I thought it was so cute MJ drinking Sleepy Time tea. Wish that had worked better for him.

I resort to Red Bull once in a while, the sugar free kind, to perk me up in the afternoons when I begin to get very sleepy after lunch.

Well, so far nurse Lee was a pretty good witness (for the pros, not defense). I get an odd feeling about her too but maybe as others said, it's not easy testifying for the defense of a killer before the world. Her notes weren't very organized but hey, at least she kept them unlike that Murray. I need to go back and watch Metzger's testimony, as I was on the way home when it was in progress. I took the day off from work tomorrow so I can relax and fully concentrate on this trial for once with NO distractions.

 

[Milka]

That's aside I think it seems like Michael was either looking for a second person and/or planning to replace Murray.

Yes, that makes a lot of sense, why else would he ask for it in April when Murray was already ordering and/or using it. Maybe he wanted to replace him, that's why the contract wasn't even signed on June 25.

 

[wendy2004]

Okay...I've caught up. Seems just as I needed to focus on work all the notable witnesses started rolling out.

Anyhoo....looks like today was a good day. I know it's supposed to be the defense's turn but the last few witnesses felt more like it was still the prosecution's turn...which is how it should be, imo.

I will wait until Lee is done testifying to make my comments on what she has to say and...whatnot (smgdh). My only criticism at the mo, tho: Girlfriend has GOT to get her notes in chronological order. That's a HUUGE pet peeve of mine when it comes to recordkeeping. Watching her flip back and forth looking for docs. was straight up annoying BUT I don't feel so anal knowing I wasn't spazzing out about it alone. Haha. It's easy to dismiss with Chernoff cuz it seems natural that he'd be an annoying imp....however, it bothers me when ppl who can be helpful to the Prosecution's case don't have their ish together.

Also, I know "some" were afraid of Metzger or ANY doctor taking the stand for the defense and speaking about whether or not Michael had sleep issues and sought treatment for insomnia. I think now we can see those fears may have been unfounded? (or perhaps we should err on the side of caution and wait til everyone has testified?)

It's not a "problem". People are just trying to understand his insomnia better. I drank redbull once in my life and it made my heart race. and didn't TMZ had a story saying that Michael drank Coca cola? I wonder if he was drinking caffeine / sugar for energy and then it was having an effect on him?

one thing Lee also said that when she watched Michael he was able to sleep 5 hours on herbal remedies. To me that doesn't sound so bad. It seems like if he went to sleep therapy or took one sleeping pill he could have slept longer. I don't know. I'm confused.

@ the red bolded: Totally agree, Ivy.

I've said this in other threads and prolly a couple days ago as well but I feel THIS is the most unfortunate part of the past 2 years besides Michael losing his life. He was abandoned by that doctor in an effort to get sleep and he was then abandoned afterwards when ppl who KNEW about his insomnia issues and could have elicited compassion and understanding for him in the world stayed quiet....acted like it didn't exist. Instead, he got thrown under the bus for more, how shall I put it....PROFITABLE and attention-seeking excuses/theories. I almost want to vomit to admit Jermaine was indeed the ONLY one willing to step up and LMP sorta went there, too...BUT THEN they both kinda negated it by talking about fall guys and things they couldn't control. Whatever. I think Frank Cascio touched on it a bit, too, on Oprah.

Hopefully, this trial will bring the inomnia issue home to the forefront for more people IF it has a chance now considering so many ppl have it in their heads about a 101 other reasons as to why propofol, Murray and MJ are in the same sentence.

All he wanted was some sleep.

Yep...still bitter.


ETA: I had a crazy debate in another thread about puzzle pieces some months ago on here in relation to this case...and I gotta say...it's interesting to see how the new info is getting "some" to reconsider things they were a lil stubborn about before; reworking those pieces to see a clearer picture?

Thanks to all for the udates. Always appreciated! :flowers:

 

[Naturelle]

Yes, that makes a lot of sense, why else would he ask for it in April when Murray was already ordering and/or using it. Maybe he wanted to replace him, that's why the contract wasn't even signed on June 25.

Murray may have known he wasn't going too. Or was he soooo stupid not knowing he needed a medical clearence to treat patients in other countries? It's is confusing because something is amiss and we may or may not ever know the tidbits of this whole mess.

 

[Autumn II]

I really do not understand what defense is trying to achieve.

At this point, I really don't understand it, either. I thought the prosecution presented an incredibly strong case, and I was kinda bracing to see what the defense had up their sleeves? But, so far, that's turned out to be absolutely NOTHING. There seems to be no theme or pattern, either, other than "Michael was asking around for propofol?" That's unwise, but hardly a crime? Or, it was going to be, "Michael self-medicated?" But the prosecution basically shot that one out of the water by saying, "regardless of whatever else, that is abandonment."

Michael asked for Propofol? Okay I don't think anyone - prosecution- denying it. Metzger and Lee will say Michael asked but they refused. It's only going to make Murray look worse IMO. Adams apparently is going to say he only gave it for procedures.

Metzger today, I actually thought was a lot stronger for the PROSECUTION. Especially after Walgren's (short) cross, where he got Metzger to say in no uncertain terms that using "an I.V. sleep aid at home is . . .life-threatening." And, he refused. And I'm assuming that tomorrow Lee will also say that Michael asked her, and she REFUSED. Adams apparently used it for legitimate reasons, so that's hardly a help for the defense? So where does that leave Murray? An unethical doctor who killed someone, is the point that comes out of this!

Michael was asking for Propofol because he wasn't getting it? But Murray already said that he was giving propofol for 6 weeks.

Yes, Murray did say that, and along with that are those boatloads of propofol he'd been ordering. So either he was lying, and wasn't giving it, or about that (ONE) thing, he was telling the truth? So, WHAT then? Michael was asking a NURSE? A nurse who didn't "give medications?" Maybe Lee is lying and Michael didn't REALLY ask her for propofol, and the defense team found her in the woodwork and got her to go on tv with the "Propofol! Propofol!" story, knowing that the police would find it in the house, or through the autopsy report? And/or to bolster the defense theory that "Michael was seeking propofol," Lee was brought in? But what kind of defense IS that, anyway? I'm not accusing Lee of lying -- not exactly -- but yet I do smell a rat, somewhere.

So I can't understand the defense's reasoning.

I think what has happened here is that during that "lost weekend" when Murray went missing, he was obviously talking with attorneys. And, he told them a "story." They must have believed it. They set up the police interview. And then, Murray TALKED too much, and basically convicted himself of Involuntary Manslaughter? In that interview, it was MURRAY who mentioned the propofol! Well, oops? Cops hadn't even found it yet, had they? And then, soon after, enter Cherlyn Lee?

Anyway, the attorneys realized that Murray had lied to THEM, too, about pretty much everything. And they were left holding the bag, with not much of a defense they could put on, at all? The Prosecution's expert witnesses were SO good, that was pretty much the end of it? (or it should be?) Of course, we have White yet to testify, but already we're pretty sure that he's being PAID for testimony, and Shafer, is not, and that isn't going to look too good? It would be pretty hard to refute Shafer's "seventeen points of extreme negligence," regardless. And, the "Michael drank the propofol" story has gone away, too.

That's aside I think it seems like Michael was either looking for a second person and/or planning to replace Murray.

That's certainly possible. So, either he was looking to replace Murray, OR Lee lied, to make it look like Michael was "doctor shopping," which was about the only defense Murray had left? Which is not a defense, at all. . .

 

[wendy2004]

Lee didn't say MJ asked her for propofol, per se... it could also have been in the context of looking for someone to assist Murray in the administration and/or monitoring of it...not the aquiring of it. I specifically recall her saying in one of her interviews that she told MJ she didn't think it was a good idea for a doctor to be give it to him nor did she know anyone (a doctor, perhaps) who would give it to him. She last saw and treated MJ in April 2009. When Murray allegedly started administering it wasn't until May. We have the chef and security all saying the staying over at night and leaving in the morning started in MAY for Murray. So EVEN if he was getting propofol and stockpiling it in APRIL, he more than likely wasn't using it on Michael at that time.

Okay...I promised myself I wasn't going to get into this or get sucked into any Lee debates tonight. I'll wait til she's done with providing ALL her testimony for the record and evaluate it at that time. What she states in court is what will count.

Peace and Goodnight.

 

[RedMaryFlint]

I really do not understand what defense is trying to achieve.

Michael asked for Propofol? Okay I don't think anyone - prosecution- denying it. Metzger and Lee will say Michael asked but they refused. It's only going to make Murray look worse IMO. Adams apparently is going to say he only gave it for procedures.

Michael was asking for Propofol because he wasn't getting it? But Murray already said that he was giving propofol for 6 weeks.

So I can't understand the defense's reasoning.

I think the defense's problem is that they had Murray as a medical consultant. :black_eye:

 

[Autumn II]

Lee didn't say MJ asked her for propofol, per se... it could also have been in the context of looking for someone to assist Murray in the administration and/or monitoring of it...not the aquiring of it. I specifically recall her saying in one of her interviews that she told MJ she didn't think it was a good idea for a doctor to be give it to him nor did she know anyone (a doctor, perhaps) who would give it to him. She last saw and treated MJ in April 2009. When Murray allegedly started administering it wasn't until May. We have the chef and security all saying the staying over at night and leaving in the morning started in MAY for Murray.

I saw all the Lee interviews on tv. She EXACTLY, that Michael had asked about propofol for use for sleep. She was already giving him IVs, so it's not a huge leap of the imagination there. Another thing that was far less than believable, is that Michael didn't seem to really know what it was, and she said "I got a PDR and showed it to him." But yet, he knew perfectly well what it was. I simply did not believe her.

Quote from CNN (rest of the article at the link)

@font-face { font-family: "Cambria"; }p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; }a:link, span.MsoHyperlink { color: blue; text-decoration: underline; }a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { color: purple; text-decoration: underline; }div.Section1 { page: Section1; } "The court session ended just before defense lawyer Ed Chernoff could ask Lee to describe what kind of help Jackson was asking for, but the nurse previously told CNN that he requested propofol."


http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/24/justice/california-conrad-murray-trial/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

So EVEN if he was getting propofol and stockpiling it in APRIL, he more than likely wasn't using it on Michael at that time.

Given Murray's extreme "veracity problems," we have NO idea, for sure, when he began to give Michael propofol. But clearly they had discussed it, or he wouldn't have been ordering it, now would he? Given that, I'd expect he'd begun administering it when he GOT it. That's what I think is most likely, anyway, given the dates of the shipments.

Doesn't really matter, though. She was a strange, and weak, witness. She'll finish up tomorrow, and no doubt will parrot exactly the same thing she said on tv, in multiple interviews. I don't expect any surprises there.

I do look forward to White's testimony, though. The cross is gonna be ugly, pretty sure.

 

[Kingofpop4ever3000]

Personally, I think it's odd that Walgren didn't do cross examination with the majority of the defense witnesses yesterday. But I hope it's because he didn't have to cross examine them in order to prove anything.

 

[JMie]

It's still hard for me to comprehend how Michael ended up with this so-called doctor who killed him There were so many things Murray could have done to actually help him with his insomnia, but instead he did this...

 

[soulmum]

The defense are probably having sleepless nights now too. Good day for the prosecution yet again. Maybe the defense have some bombshell to drop yet but so far I'm not seeing that.

 

[djbaby]

The defense are probably having sleepless nights now too. Good day for the prosecution yet again. Maybe the defense have some bombshell to drop yet but so far I'm not seeing that.

I'm really hoping that the defense's case is as weak as it appears to be so far, because then I can't see any thing happening here other than a guilty verdict. could be wrong, but it sure seems that way. praying I'm right.