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Murray Trial Day 20. October 28th

Ok thats confusing then. the defence have only mentioned 50 25 from mj and 25 from murray. or is that another selective memory moment by the defence
 
Monday can't come soon enough. I won't be able to concentrate on my work on Monday waiting for the court day to start.
 
sophie;3523201 said:
i knew they would go into urine levels of propofol. defense used free propofol for their model, not metabolites. i wonder if prosecution will now get hold of urine hydrol values for rebuttal. maybe they can show there was a bit more than 25mg of propofol
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According to Shafer (day 16, part 1 minute 40 and 42), nor the defense nor the coroner have differentiated the propofol metabolite (the propofol glucoronide).

So I cannot understand what White said about the "free propofol"???

Shaffer also said at the end of cross he would need to know about the metabollite to make calculations...???


post mortem redistribution
elimination through intestines (what dr shafer explained)
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According to both experts there is no post-mortem redistribution of lorazepam.

According to Dr. Shaffer the lorazepam analysis done by defense both in stomach and in urine included both the lorazepam and its metabolite (the lorazepam glucoronide, formed by liver by adding sugar to the lorazepam molecule, but with no real effect of the drug as such.

On day 14, part 2, minute 32:40 direct examination, Dr. Shaffer said MJ did not ingest lorazepam according to Pacific test (defense’s) at least in the 4 prior hours. He also said that the presence of lorazepam in the stomach could be clearly expected even from lorazepam IV solely.

if we assume mj was awake at noon, would he have been sufficiently alert to self administer propofol? patients under the influence of lorazepam are groggy
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Yes, that’s a good point and both experts agree the hypothesis of the oral lorazepam must have happened before 8am, and not after… But they have not talked about the expected effects…

perimortem scars from beads:
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I have read on another board that that in itself could not prove much in the sense that there was some sort of circulation due to CPR and that even if those abrassions had been caused in hospital (just for the sake of the example), coroner would still have ruled those scars as peri-mortem and not post-mortem.

the scars could indicate that murray had moved mj at time of death
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I agree with this, but I think what I said above is also logical, and I guess that’s why prosecutors have not brought up the issue.

another issue prosecution should focus on are the empty flumazenil vials:
for what did murray need all this flumazenil??
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Yes, that was what Shaffer also wondered, why should Murray worry to administer flumazenil if he had only given MJ 4mg of lorazepam?
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Just.. says 200mg which would mean 50mg doesnt fit. so whats 2.6 in mg if that makes sense
 
to convert micrograms to mg : 1 microgram = 0.001 mg

2.6 µg = 0.0026 mg is this what you are looking for?
 
Sorry i crap with this sort of stuff. just trying to understand about what just.. said about 200mg been found but the defence are only mentioning 50mg.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
From what i remember white never said mj didnt fill the syringes himself. it was just implied assumed that mj filled the syringe cause nothing else was said saying the opposite during his testimony. im sure if the defence wanted to imply one was already filled they would have come right out and said it
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But that would have really highlighted murray's negligence and abandonment...imagine leaving a 'loaded' syringe where a patient can reach it and then leaving him alone with it So if they don't say anything they hope it slides under the radar.

Multiple self injections 50mg each, inconsistent with lidocaine found at autopsy, would be difficult for MJ, propofol is difficult to draw , Dr White i not sure he would do it himself, defense never claimed that
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can anyone clarify the bolded part for me?
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I believe he means that it would be physically difficult to draw out of a non vented bottle...you have to push an equal amount of air in corresponding to the amount you want to draw out. It is possible to draw fluid out without doing that but it is more difficult as there is much more resistance, control of syringe is compromised and really if someone doesn't know how to do it, it is difficult. Is this what you're asking?


Edited to ask: I don't understand where the 200mg "in the blood" comes from? Not from tox report..what am I missing? Is it something from Schafer's testimony?
 
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smoothlugar said:
According to Shafer (day 16, part 1 minute 40 and 42), nor the defense nor the coroner have differentiated the propofol metabolite (the propofol glucoronide).
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maybe they can still get the metabolite for rebuttal. i have seen propofol death case reports where it was used to estimate the amount of propofol administered. i don't know what is the better method to estimate the amount, to use free propofol or the propofol glucoronide. not all metabolites can be quantified, some references say the propofol glucoronide makes about 50% of all metabolites, this could possibly be argued. but the percentage of free propofol can possibly be argued as well.

edit: sorry, needed to look at your post again. i think they only got the free propofol. not the metabolite. defense based their model on the free propofol. that was my understanding.

According to both experts there is no post-mortem redistribution of lorazepam.
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thanks, yes you are right, lorazepam does not redistribute.

Yes, that was what Shaffer also wondered, why should Murray worry to administer flumazenil if he had only given MJ 4mg of lorazepam?
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yes, that's a clear indication murray was aware of a large amount of lorazepam.
but i'm also talking of the empty flumazenil vials found in his hidden bags. it was not the first time he had administered flumazenil
 
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Thanks cinzia. has a amount been estimated that wad found then or is it not really poss to do it.

agree with the flumez comment. walgren needs to make more of this. its an important issue
 
200 mg?? I dont think that is right... Like cinzia said only
2.6 ug/ml in femoral blood

That isnt 200 mg.. Hard to say what amount it is, they say
 
I hate that I have to go back to work Monday. I actually booked my time off 6 months ago and didn't know the trial would be on because it got changed so much. I was lucky to be home the last 2 weeks. I am just going to pray and stay positive. It's not easy but I know that's all I can do.

If Michael was addicted to demerol as those people try to say wouldn't he have to take it like everyday or something? It makes no sense to me. Everything that was in Michael was what Murray gave him. Nothing else. I hate how Michael was thrown under the bus like that.
 
sophie said:
yes, agree, imo it's crucial
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It indeed is, it shows that Murray had to use Flumazenil before, according to Shafer it reverts the effects of Benzodiazepine's, so him using Flumazenil before does indicate that Murray was giving larger/dangerous /possibly even lethal amounts of lorazepam before June 25. I hope Walgren's looked into this matter or will look into this matter. No matter how short Murray's actual jailtime will be, he should not be getting away. Walgren needs to make sure Murray gets convicted.
 
If Michael Jackson had an Alaris pump, he couldn't have done this - it takes some knowledge of computer programming to change the drip rate. I also am looking forward to the cross-examination.

I feel bad for the life and death of Michael Jackson. Say what you want, his was a tragedy in action. Imagine being just a voice to a lot of people, including your family - just a voice with earning potential. Such a sad life.
 
In order to make the point of MJ not being able to program an Alaris Pump, the Prosecution should get any lay person at the trial with NO medical experience to try to reprogram a sample pump in front of the jury.
 
LindaC781 said:
In order to make the point of MJ not being able to program an Alaris Pump, the Prosecution should get any lay person at the trial with NO medical experience to try to reprogram a sample pump in front of the jury.
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Good idea but There was no pump so it wouldnt be relevant to the case.
 
So there were empty flumazenil bottles in the hidden bag's as well as on the floor at side of bed?. Also didn't White say "I'm not sure of his exact words" that the reason for large amount of propofol in femoral blood was because Murray used femoral artery below knee?
 
I didn't expect the defense to do so well in the last couple of days. It took the prosecution by surprise. I would love to watch the trial on Monday, but I also have to work. I'll watch what I can, when I get back from work at night and read the articles on the web.
 
twinklEE said:
It indeed is, it shows that Murray had to use Flumazenil before, according to Shafer it reverts the effects of Benzodiazepine's, so him using Flumazenil before does indicate that Murray was giving larger/dangerous /possibly even lethal amounts of lorazepam before June 25. I hope Walgren's looked into this matter or will look into this matter. No matter how short Murray's actual jailtime will be, he should not be getting away. Walgren needs to make sure Murray gets convicted.
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This empty Flumazenil vial should be mentioned monday! This is excellent evidence for the prosecutors. Walgren has to ask about that.
 
sophie said:
maybe they can still get the metabolite for rebuttal. i have seen propofol death case reports where it was used to estimate the amount of propofol administered. i don't know what is the better method to estimate the amount, to use free propofol or the propofol glucoronide.

edit: sorry, needed to look at your post again. i think they only got the free propofol. not the metabolite. defense based their model on the free propofol. that was my understanding.
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Why did White use mg and not ug/ml in his diagramsto refer to "unchanged propofol"in urine??

It seems as if he was talking about amounts found in urine (of free propofol, without the metabollite Shaffer mentioned...), and not about the concentration found in AR.
 
twinklEE said:
It indeed is, it shows that Murray had to use Flumazenil before, according to Shafer it reverts the effects of Benzodiazepine's, so him using Flumazenil before does indicate that Murray was giving larger/dangerous /possibly even lethal amounts of lorazepam before June 25. I hope Walgren's looked into this matter or will look into this matter. No matter how short Murray's actual jailtime will be, he should not be getting away. Walgren needs to make sure Murray gets convicted.
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The thing about Flumazenil is that it has a short period of action so that once the Flum. has worn off, resedation can occur.

Compared with placebo, flumazenil promptly reversed sedation for 30 min, hypotonia for 45 min and anterograde amnesia for 60 min, and improved orientation and collaboration for 60 min. However, after 90 min significant recurrent sedation was observed, while anterograde amnesia reappeared after 60 and up to 120 min. No side-effects were noted at any time.
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3137026

Perhaps that's why he needed to have so much FLumazenil, to prevent or treat any resedation that might have occurred.

Also didn't White say "I'm not sure of his exact words" that the reason for large amount of propofol in femoral blood was because Murray used femoral artery below knee?
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Only murray did not put an IV into the femoral artery, just a leg vein.

And I still want to know why there was prop, lido AND Flumazenil in the tubing below the y connector...If murray wanted to reverse any benzo affects why was any of this medicine remaining in the tubing...it should have all been flushed in if murray indeed 'bolused' the flumazenil. Of course the propofol in the tubing would have compounded the problem and is not affected by the flum. And murray could SEE the propofol in the tubing because of the color so he knew it was there...maybe he realized that if he flushed in flum. he would make things worse secondary to the propofol? So what happened?
I don't see how murray actually gave any flumazenil at all.
 
kissybissy said:
I didn't expect the defense to do so well in the last couple of days. It took the prosecution by surprise. I would love to watch the trial on Monday, but I also have to work. I'll watch what I can, when I get back from work at night and read the articles on the web.
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I thought they were awful,, full of lies
 
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