elusive moonwalker
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What was the full amount in the blood
200mgs I think
you mean blood levels? 2.6 ug/ml in femoral bloodWhat was the full amount in the blood
According to Shafer (day 16, part 1 minute 40 and 42), nor the defense nor the coroner have differentiated the propofol metabolite (the propofol glucoronide).sophie;3523201 said:i knew they would go into urine levels of propofol. defense used free propofol for their model, not metabolites. i wonder if prosecution will now get hold of urine hydrol values for rebuttal. maybe they can show there was a bit more than 25mg of propofol
So I cannot understand what White said about the "free propofol"???
Shaffer also said at the end of cross he would need to know about the metabollite to make calculations...???
According to both experts there is no post-mortem redistribution of lorazepam.post mortem redistribution
elimination through intestines (what dr shafer explained)
According to Dr. Shaffer the lorazepam analysis done by defense both in stomach and in urine included both the lorazepam and its metabolite (the lorazepam glucoronide, formed by liver by adding sugar to the lorazepam molecule, but with no real effect of the drug as such.
On day 14, part 2, minute 32:40 direct examination, Dr. Shaffer said MJ did not ingest lorazepam according to Pacific test (defense’s) at least in the 4 prior hours. He also said that the presence of lorazepam in the stomach could be clearly expected even from lorazepam IV solely.
Yes, that’s a good point and both experts agree the hypothesis of the oral lorazepam must have happened before 8am, and not after… But they have not talked about the expected effects…if we assume mj was awake at noon, would he have been sufficiently alert to self administer propofol? patients under the influence of lorazepam are groggy
I have read on another board that that in itself could not prove much in the sense that there was some sort of circulation due to CPR and that even if those abrassions had been caused in hospital (just for the sake of the example), coroner would still have ruled those scars as peri-mortem and not post-mortem.perimortem scars from beads:
I agree with this, but I think what I said above is also logical, and I guess that’s why prosecutors have not brought up the issue.the scars could indicate that murray had moved mj at time of death
Yes, that was what Shaffer also wondered, why should Murray worry to administer flumazenil if he had only given MJ 4mg of lorazepam?another issue prosecution should focus on are the empty flumazenil vials:
for what did murray need all this flumazenil??
From what i remember white never said mj didnt fill the syringes himself. it was just implied assumed that mj filled the syringe cause nothing else was said saying the opposite during his testimony. im sure if the defence wanted to imply one was already filled they would have come right out and said it
can anyone clarify the bolded part for me?Multiple self injections 50mg each, inconsistent with lidocaine found at autopsy, would be difficult for MJ, propofol is difficult to draw , Dr White i not sure he would do it himself, defense never claimed that
maybe they can still get the metabolite for rebuttal. i have seen propofol death case reports where it was used to estimate the amount of propofol administered. i don't know what is the better method to estimate the amount, to use free propofol or the propofol glucoronide. not all metabolites can be quantified, some references say the propofol glucoronide makes about 50% of all metabolites, this could possibly be argued. but the percentage of free propofol can possibly be argued as well.According to Shafer (day 16, part 1 minute 40 and 42), nor the defense nor the coroner have differentiated the propofol metabolite (the propofol glucoronide).
thanks, yes you are right, lorazepam does not redistribute.According to both experts there is no post-mortem redistribution of lorazepam.
yes, that's a clear indication murray was aware of a large amount of lorazepam.Yes, that was what Shaffer also wondered, why should Murray worry to administer flumazenil if he had only given MJ 4mg of lorazepam?
yes, agree, imo it's crucialagree with the flumez comment. walgren needs to make more of this. its an important issue
why 200mg? did they say that in court?Just.. says 200mg which would mean 50mg doesnt fit. so whats 2.6 in mg if that makes sense
It indeed is, it shows that Murray had to use Flumazenil before, according to Shafer it reverts the effects of Benzodiazepine's, so him using Flumazenil before does indicate that Murray was giving larger/dangerous /possibly even lethal amounts of lorazepam before June 25. I hope Walgren's looked into this matter or will look into this matter. No matter how short Murray's actual jailtime will be, he should not be getting away. Walgren needs to make sure Murray gets convicted.yes, agree, imo it's crucial
Good idea but There was no pump so it wouldnt be relevant to the case.In order to make the point of MJ not being able to program an Alaris Pump, the Prosecution should get any lay person at the trial with NO medical experience to try to reprogram a sample pump in front of the jury.
It indeed is, it shows that Murray had to use Flumazenil before, according to Shafer it reverts the effects of Benzodiazepine's, so him using Flumazenil before does indicate that Murray was giving larger/dangerous /possibly even lethal amounts of lorazepam before June 25. I hope Walgren's looked into this matter or will look into this matter. No matter how short Murray's actual jailtime will be, he should not be getting away. Walgren needs to make sure Murray gets convicted.
maybe they can still get the metabolite for rebuttal. i have seen propofol death case reports where it was used to estimate the amount of propofol administered. i don't know what is the better method to estimate the amount, to use free propofol or the propofol glucoronide.
edit: sorry, needed to look at your post again. i think they only got the free propofol. not the metabolite. defense based their model on the free propofol. that was my understanding.
It indeed is, it shows that Murray had to use Flumazenil before, according to Shafer it reverts the effects of Benzodiazepine's, so him using Flumazenil before does indicate that Murray was giving larger/dangerous /possibly even lethal amounts of lorazepam before June 25. I hope Walgren's looked into this matter or will look into this matter. No matter how short Murray's actual jailtime will be, he should not be getting away. Walgren needs to make sure Murray gets convicted.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3137026Compared with placebo, flumazenil promptly reversed sedation for 30 min, hypotonia for 45 min and anterograde amnesia for 60 min, and improved orientation and collaboration for 60 min. However, after 90 min significant recurrent sedation was observed, while anterograde amnesia reappeared after 60 and up to 120 min. No side-effects were noted at any time.
Also didn't White say "I'm not sure of his exact words" that the reason for large amount of propofol in femoral blood was because Murray used femoral artery below knee?
I didn't expect the defense to do so well in the last couple of days. It took the prosecution by surprise. I would love to watch the trial on Monday, but I also have to work. I'll watch what I can, when I get back from work at night and read the articles on the web.