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Murray Trial Day 20. October 28th

"Propofol, Lidocaine and Flumazenil were detected in approximately 0.17 gm of white tinted fluid from a 10 cc syringe.

Propofol, Lidocaine and Flumazenil were detected in approximately 0.47 gm of yellow tinted fluid from a short section of IV tubing attached to a Y connector...

And are considered components of an IV system, ie., parts of an IV system. This is from the medical evidence 2.
As opposed to medical evidence 1 which lists a 10 cc syringe with propofol and lidocaine.


Assuming a continuous infusion of propofol, where did the lidocaine in the iv tubing come from?
And/or did murray use an already made up syringe of propofol and lidocaine to administer the flumazenil?
And how much actual fluid are we talking about here, 0.47 gm and 0.17 gm.

And how many premade propofol/lidocaine syringes were there?

Can anyone put me out of my misery on this issue?
 
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He injected lidocane/dip through the short as apart of the bolus to induce before starting the drip of diprivan?and when he found mj he used the same syringe to five flumez as did to give the induction dose of lidocaine/dip.would u need to keep giving lidocane once the person is asleep? i thought it would just be given when u first get knocked out.when u look at this way walgrens cross should be amazing cause what other times do u have the chance to watch the testimony and pause it as you go and say to yourself i need to question xy and zone question though. was the i.v bag found hidden tested for dip or did they not bother cause there was a dip bottle found in it and alberto described seeing liquid in it. that was another twist by white saying the saline bag had no dip in it when i presume he was talking about the one left hanging up. could have been avoided if fleek had done her job. one of the most important pieces of evidence and she didnt photo it as found
 
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cinzia said:
And/or did murray use an already made up syringe of propofol and lidocaine to administer the flumazenil?
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Yes, this must mean he used the same syringe. With the rest ... can you give me links where you got this from? I wish I'd remember all those details, but it's almost impossible to remember all that.

P.S.

elusive moonwalker said:
He injected lidocane/dip through the short as apart of the bolus to induce before starting the drip of diprivan?
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I agree, elusive.
 
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anyone remember how many propofol bottles were found? empty / full
 
Nice post you all

I dont know how much bottles there where found, i thought at least 2.

For the lorapam, for me it doesnt make any sence to mix lorezpam and mid.pam together, especially not with propofol. I agree with ivy that dr white was good with making a point of the days before and that there must be something in michaels system left.
I believe that.

Also cinzia, i dont know exactly what u mean?? Where did you get that from? I never knew he used to same syrince. MAkes sence if he is in hurry..

Edit: Also ivy and rest: Also dr white had urine samples to make a better model. Why didnt shaffer had that????

edit: I heared a rumor that judge pastor is related to sneddon?? not true right?
 
bouee said:
yes, but the the prosecution had another test done by Anderson, they found a very small amount of free lorazepam (1/250th pf a 2mg pill). Based on that Dr Shafer said that Michael couldn't have swallowed lorazepam at least in the 4 hours prior to his death. That'w why the defense had to change the time from 10am to before 8am.

The defense had another test done , they found an even lower amount of free lorazepam (1/333rd of a 2mg pill)
, so there was free lorazepam in the stomach
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Thanks, but there's something I must have missed. (Do you remember where Shafer talks about free lorazepam finally found, not hypothetically calculated?)

Dr. Shaffer established that no oral lorazepam was taken in the four hours prior to noon, on the same day he was talking about the test carried out by defense at Pacific Toxicology where he previously had said that there was no way of being certain of whether there was free or original lorazepam since the lab had converted all the metabolollites (perfectly expected to apperar in stomach even from IV administration) to lorazepam
day 14, part 2, min 34:30 in reference to the 8am you mention. http://www.youtube.com/user/JustMeSTKK#p/c/850F8F0DAECA56A9/1/lFePQHnX8m8




 
elusive moonwalker said:
He injected lidocane/dip through the short as apart of the bolus to induce before starting the drip of diprivan?and when he found mj he used the same syringe to five flumez as did to give the induction dose of lidocaine/dip.would u need to keep giving lidocane once the person is asleep?
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This is what I thought too. If he was infusing the propofol from the bottle there would have been no need for the lidocaine once the induction bolus was in and there would have been no lidocaine remaining in the tubing once the propofol drip was underway...just plain propofol.
Then there were at least 2 prepared syringes...why the need for two syringes of propofol and lidocaine?
There was an empty flumaz. vial at the scene. It should have been a 5 ml vial or 0.5mg. If he drew up the whole vial to give and used one of the syringes to give the flumazenil, but I can't find anywhere how much fluid was in either of the syringes. If he gave the whole 5 ml of flumaz, then how much prop/lido was already in the syringe when he added the flumaz? Maximum of 5 ml (2.5 prop 2.5 Lidocaine) Wouldn't that give murray his 25 mg of propofol (or is my math really really bad tonight) Did he intentionally mix the three so that the flumaz would reverse the benzos as he gave the propofol? What would happen to a person receiving this 'cocktail'? A bad reaction? Or did he just panic and grab any available syringe.
I wish there were a way to know how much prop, lido and flum individually were present in that syringe. Likewise how much was in the other prop/lido syringe. But all I can find is grams which mean nothing to me.
They also recovered 5 ml flumazenil vials (4 of them) but don't list if they were opened.
Milka said:
Yes, this must mean he used the same syringe. With the rest ... can you give me links where you got this from? I wish I'd remember all those details, but it's almost impossible to remember all that.
I agree, elusive.
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Coroners report. [
Page49-Toxicology-Report-Summary.jpg
http://dearconradmurray.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Page49-Toxicology-Report-Summary.jpg

A little more on Flumazenil here, this is talking about it's use in benzo overdose but if murray thought michael had received too much, that would qualify as an overdose...
Flumazenil (Anexate) is a competitive benzodiazepine receptor antagonist that can be used as an antidote for benzodiazepine overdose. Its use, however, is controversial as it has numerous contraindications.[3][44] It is contraindicated in patients who are on long-term benzodiazepines...[45] Due to these contraindications and the possibility of it causing severe adverse effects including seizures, adverse cardiac effects, and death,[46][47] in the majority of cases there is no indication for the use of flumazenil in the management of benzodiazepine overdose as the risks in general outweigh any potential benefit of administration.[3][4 In addition, if full airway protection has been achieved, a good outcome is expected, and therefore flumazenil administration is unlikely to be required.[48]
Flumazenil is very effective at reversing the CNS depression associated with benzodiazepines but is less effective at reversing respiratory depression.[44] ... Due to its short half life, the duration of action of flumazenil is usually less than 1 hour, and multiple doses may be needed.[44] When flumazenil is indicated the risks can be reduced or avoided by slow dose titration of flumazenil.[50] Due to risks and its many contraindications, flumazenil should be administered only after discussion with a medical toxicologist.[49][51]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzodiazepine_overdose#Flumazenil
 
myosotis said:
I'm not sure why everyone seemed to be concentrating on the empty 100ml bottle of propofol...the empty bottle was not the only one found. (ie whatever was given doesn't need to add up to exactly 100mls).

From Fleaks' testimony, other partially used bottles were found, so presumably Murray could have used these that day and packed them away at the same time as the empty bottle?

Full and part full bottles found
Propofol:Light blue baby essentials bag : 2 x full 100ml Propofol and 7 x 20 mls, 3 opened with various levels
Black bag: 3 bottles lidocaine - 2 empty 1 half full
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Ivy^^ bottles found in bag.

After thinking about white's testimony, i honestly don't think the pros has much to fear. The defence's theories of what happened that night are not credible or reasonable.

The only way to not implicate murray in the prop found in mj is for mj to self-inject. It's not just unreasonable it is impossible to believe that at the very moment murray left the room, mj woke up from the 20mg loraz, xmg midaz and 25mg prop, wondered where murray who he was paying over $5000 a night to monitor him had got to, decided to just self-administer his milk, found a syringe, found a bottle of prop and lidocaine, expertly drew up half and half and injected himself in a port on his knee, put down the syringe, wiped his fingerprints off everything and promptly had a heart attack - all in the two mins muray was out of the room. It's a complete joke (and it will still be a joke when the defence start saying oh,maybe he was away for longer).

And if white is so keen to take murray's statement as gospel he's also going to have to take into account how mj can prepare this syringe and self-inject if he is legally blind. Murray spent considerable time saying in that interview how bad mj's eyesight was and that he needed a magnifying glass.
 
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Sorry double post, forgot to add something about how the defence has to explain prop found in mj without implicating murray.

I thought at first that the defence's assertion in their opening statement that mj died immediately of heart attack, was to negate the fact that murray wasted over 20mins doing everything except ring 911 after finding mj unresponsive. The serious delay in ringing 911 would not matter in causing death if mj was already dead. But it now appears that mj has to immediately die after self-injecting to allow the levels of prop to match the high ones found at autopsy as otherwise prop almost immediataely metabolises and the blood levels drop. White really did not make this clear in his testimony, he just says that rapid self-injection 'potentially could have lethal consequences' - (is this a medical definition of cardiac arrest?!) It's clearly a defence weakness as how can they test this theory - has a poor beagle been given this combo of drugs and watched to see if it dies of heart attack? It's vitally important to the defence theory that mj dies immediately and it just shows what the defence has been trying to do all along, come up with all these theories to fit the facts, and either using or impeaching murray's interview with the detectives when it suits them, as in this example murray was finding a pulse on mj and a oximeter reading.
 
Bonnie Blue said:
And if white is so keen to take murray's statement as gospel he's also going to have to take into account how mj can prepare this syringe and self-inject if he is legally blind. Murray spent considerable time saying in that interview how bad mj's eyesight was and that he needed a magnifying glass.
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He only does with the parts that fit in with what the defense wants people to think. In his demonstration of an IV he didn't turn off the saline, like Murray said he did, and said nobody would ever do that.

cinzia, yes, I think he used the same syringe for the Flumazenil, just not at the same time. How very hygienic. And thanks for the facts about Flumazenil, using that seems pretty reckless too, and it says it's not for patients who take them long term. If he gave them over 2 months every day, I guess that qualifies as long term.
 
wendy2004;3523507 said:
Also, Shafer testified that there’s no such thing as a little anesthesia. No matter how small the dose, certain protocols and precautions must be met. White seemed to try and downplay this as if 25mg was nothing to be concerned about. WTF?!
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This is one of the points made by the defense that is a double-edged sword for them. White is saying 25 mg is nothing, but he is also saying that that is the dose that killed the patient! It's inescapable then that even this small amount carries with it a significant risk of accidental death, since the only difference is the speed of administration, and Murray had no automation or resuscitative equipment.

The defense may in fact make out a case that Michael was killed by a bolus shot rather than a drip, but it would be something of a Pyrrhic victory for them. It's one thing to demonstrate that, and quite another to prove who did it. They need Michael to be a crazy compulsive addict in order to shift the blame onto him. Their asshat addiction specialist thus started with the conclusion that Michael was an addict and tried to work backward by cherry-picking the evidence and filling in the gaps with conjecture and gossip, but he failed embarrassingly to prove the theory. That means the jury would be left to decide whether the shot was administered by a groggy patient with no medical training or a doctor who was talking on either of two cell phones while giving multiple doses of multiple medications and keeping no notes.

One last thing, it was interesting to hear White downplay his own work by saying how each person is different so the models (which Shafer came up with based on White’s data) aren’t necessarily fixed. Well, if the models mean nothing, why do they come with the packaging? *It’s a starting point to say what SHOULD be done and offers a variable range for what is KNOWN to be most harmful and least harmful depending on the person. There IS a range that’s meant to be guide. And that guide is based on FACTUAL data and research. To act like, well, it doesn’t REALLY mean much (becuz it’s being used against Murray), is borderline irresponsible.
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It's another double-edged sword. He makes a great deal about the variability in patient responsiveness according to dosage, because he wants to discredit Shafer's modeling. Alas for the defense, it also underscores the fact that Murray had no business trying to monitor Michael's physiological state under anaesthesia by eyeballing it.

bouee;3523591 said:
Urine concentration :*

Dr White based his analysis upon free propofol, Dr Shafer said he needed the metabolite, and that was not measured. Dr Shafer said he would need a model, and didn't know how much of the mtabolite would go in the urine, and how much would go in the bile.*
Anderson said he wouldn't use urine, it only gives a history, possibly over several days, it was not precise enough.*

I'm not in the medical field, but Dr Shafer's answer sounds more logical to me since propofol metabolises very quickly.*
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So potentially if the metabolite can be measured and modeled, we may conclude that the propofol had been administered to Michael for a longer period of time that night than the defense claims.
 
someone about sneddon and judge pastor?????


Why did shaffer not have urine samples to make a good model????
 
I think he used the same syringe for the Flumazenil, just not at the same time. How very hygienic. And thanks for the facts about Flumazenil, using that seems pretty reckless too, and it says it's not for patients who take them long term. If he gave them over 2 months every day, I guess that qualifies as long term.

That is dicussting using same syringes over and over. After MJ dozzed off, it's no telling what that man put in MJ's system. It's heartbreaking to learn what he did was totally reckless to say the least.
 
Naturelle said:
I think he used the same syringe for the Flumazenil, just not at the same time. How very hygienic. And thanks for the facts about Flumazenil, using that seems pretty reckless too, and it says it's not for patients who take them long term. If he gave them over 2 months every day, I guess that qualifies as long term.

That is dicussting using same syringes over and over. After MJ dozzed off, it's no telling what that man put in MJ's system. It's heartbreaking to learn what he did was totally reckless to say the least.
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Naturelle it is amazing that you made that observation because I just got a call from my friend who said her sister-in-law just had surgery and the IV rout/tube was not clean and her blood became infected. now she is dying because it affected her liver, kidney and 2 heart valves. Muary is very crazy.
 
I believe Conrad Murray is by definition a "Total Sociopath".
Profile of the Sociopath


This website summarizes some of the common features of descriptions of the behavior of sociopaths.
http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

  • Glibness and Superficial Charm

  • Manipulative and Conning
    They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

  • Grandiose Sense of Self
    Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

  • Pathological Lying
    Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

  • Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
    A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.
  • Shallow Emotions
    When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.
  • Incapacity for Love
  • Need for Stimulation
    Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

  • Callousness/Lack of Empathy
    Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.
  • Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
    Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.
  • Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
    Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.
  • Irresponsibility/Unreliability
    Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.
  • Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
    Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.
  • Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
    Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.
  • Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
    Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.
 
Bonnie Blue said:
Ivy^^ bottles found in bag.

After thinking about white's testimony, i honestly don't think the pros has much to fear. The defence's theories of what happened that night are not credible or reasonable.

The only way to not implicate murray in the prop found in mj is for mj to self-inject. It's not just unreasonable it is impossible to believe that at the very moment murray left the room, mj woke up from the 20mg loraz, xmg midaz and 25mg prop, wondered where murray who he was paying over $5000 a night to monitor him had got to, decided to just self-administer his milk, found a syringe, found a bottle of prop and lidocaine, expertly drew up half and half and injected himself in a port on his knee, put down the syringe, wiped his fingerprints off everything and promptly had a heart attack - all in the two mins muray was out of the room. It's a complete joke (and it will still be a joke when the defence start saying oh,maybe he was away for longer).

And if white is so keen to take murray's statement as gospel he's also going to have to take into account how mj can prepare this syringe and self-inject if he is legally blind. Murray spent considerable time saying in that interview how bad mj's eyesight was and that he needed a magnifying glass.
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Hopefully Walgren will remind the jury what MJ told Nurse CL.........that Propofol was safe as long as he was monitored. Michael knew how important it was for him to be monitored. Why would he wake up, see himself completely alone (un-monitored) and then self-inject? It doesn't make any sense!
 
My goodness if MJ woould have woken up like Murray said and saw that Murray wasn't in the room the guy wouldn't have a job anymore on the spot. Because it's obvious MJ wanted someone to watch him and if he knew he could have died cause this Jackass left the room he would have fired him.
 
smoothlugar said:
Thanks, but there's something I must have missed. (Do you remember where Shafer talks about free lorazepam finally found, not hypothetically calculated?)

Dr. Shaffer established that no oral lorazepam was taken in the four hours prior to noon, on the same day he was talking about the test carried out by defense at Pacific Toxicology where he previously had said that there was no way of being certain of whether there was free or original lorazepam since the lab had converted all the metabolollites (perfectly expected to apperar in stomach even from IV administration) to lorazepam
day 14, part 2, min 34:30 in reference to the 8am you mention. http://www.youtube.com/user/JustMeSTKK#p/c/850F8F0DAECA56A9/1/lFePQHnX8m8
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:clapping: :bow:

Wow, thanks for this Smoothlugar ! The actual figure (0.008, 1/250th of pill, coroner test for free lorazepam) comes from day 16,oct 24th, Walgren questionning doctor Shafer) . The second figure (0.006, 1/333rd of a pill comes from the Pennsylvania Lab Pacific Toxicolgy went through) comes from Henson's testimony, day 17, oct 25th.

Walgren mentionned the new test by the coroner on the 17th or 18th october, at a hearing.

But when Dr Shafer estimates the 8 am, he says it's based on the 0.047mg, and he knows that the .047mg is lorazepam + its metabolite. Maybe he knows (but doesn't mention ) the 0.008 figure from the coroner.

So maybe another surprise for the defense ??? I would expect Dr White has done the calculation before saying 7am ?
 
The testing of the iv bag and line that was found on the 29th as posted on the previous page was the saline bag that was left hanging correct? as fleek had to go back to get it and there was the whole argument about whether the tubing had been slightly moved
or not.the defence tried to say this shows there was no drip in the closing bit of whites testimony. even though we know thats false.

a question though.was the dip bottle in the bag that was found hiden was the iv bag tested?
 
bouee said:
:clapping: :bow:Wow, thanks for this Smoothlugar ! The actual figure (0.008, 1/250th of pill, coroner test for free lorazepam) comes from day 16,oct 24th, Walgren questionning doctor Shafer) . The second figure (0.006, 1/333rd of a pill comes from the Pennsylvania Lab Pacific Toxicolgy went through) comes from Henson's testimony, day 17, oct 25th. Walgren mentionned the new test by the coroner on the 17th or 18th october, at a hearing. But when Dr Shafer estimates the 8 am, he says it's based on the 0.047mg, and he knows that the .047mg is lorazepam + its metabolite. Maybe he knows (but doesn't mention ) the 0.008 figure from the coroner.So maybe another surprise for the defense ??? I would expect Dr White has done the calculation before saying 7am ?
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what are you saying bouee? the defence just webt with 7am cause its and hour before 8 but maynot have actually worked it out and the lowrr figures the defence test came out with may reduce the time to before 7am
 
elusive moonwalker said:
what are you saying bouee? the defence just webt with 7am cause its and hour before 8 but maynot have actually worked it out and the lowrr figures the defence test came out with may reduce the time to before 7am
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yes maybe (actually Smoothlugar pointed this out, I didn't remember it). What I was saying is I would expect White to have said 7am based on the 0.008mg , since they had the figure for a few days. But maybe you're right and White just said 7 because of Dr Shafer's 8 am estimation, and didn't work anything out.

It's true White was vague, and didn't exactly answer about the stomach content, he was estimating with the blood concentration. About the stomach content White just said that you shouldn't find free lorazepam in the stomach at all. We know Anderson will be back for rebuttal, Dr Shafer will probably be back also, so we'll see
 
CherubimII said:
.... [/COLOR]
[/LIST]
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Maybe...although he seems more like a narcissistic asshole to me. Sociopaths are usually methodical and keep their cool--it was clear Murray was panicking when the events of 6.25.2009 took place, at least if we are to believe others' testimony. The Narcissistic personality would still possess some of the traits which a sociopath would have--among them pathological lying and an inflated self-regard, however, unlike the sociopath, they would be capable of panic/fear, which Murray clearly is capable of. However, their regard for others would be diminished (in this case zilch) since they're self-centered a--holes, as implied by the name, derived from the myth of Narcissus.

I think Murray fits that profile better than that of the sociopath, but I'm not saying it is not possible Murray could be a sociopath. It's difficult to tell without actually knowing the guy.

...but I can tell you with 100% certainty that, either way, he's a scumbag.
 
Just counting down the time until we see Mr Walgren at his very best, think this cross is going to be the highlight of the entire trial.
 
Go Walgren!

In theory regardless of how the fatal dose entered Michael, Murray is still guilty of what he has been charged with. I hope Walgren clears the smoke screen later on, I am so looking forward to the cross ex. Amongst many other questions - I want him to ask White if leaving your sedated patient alone with medication laid all around is gross neglegence in his opinion.
 
LastTear said:
Go Walgren!

In theory regardless of how the fatal dose entered Michael, Murray is still guilty of what he has been charged with. I hope Walgren clears the smoke screen later on, I am so looking forward to the cross ex. Amongst many other questions - I want him to ask White if leaving your sedated patient alone with medication laid all around is gross neglegence in his opinion.
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And ask him how Michael was able to wake up still groggy from the larazepam, midazolam etc self inject propofol and lidocaine then take off the gloves he was wearing (no fingerprints from MJ found) and then die right away, all within the two mins Murray was taking a piss.
 
twinklEE said:
And ask him how Michael was able to wake up still groggy from the larazepam, midazolam etc self inject propofol and lidocaine then take off the gloves he was wearing (no fingerprints from MJ found) and then die right away, all within the two mins Murray was taking a piss.
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Absolutely! And I hope during closing Walgren hammers home to the jury how it is proven that murray lied about how long he left Michael, so I hope they consider about what else he lied about - an IV perhaps?

BTW Tito is on Sky news in a few mins, talking about the impact of the trial on the family, although I'm sure a DVD will be mentioned.
 
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