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Preliminary Hearing 11/1/11. Day Six. Discussion Thread

Autumn II said:
I wonder, sometimes, why others don't see Michael in the way that WE do? As a mega-talent, but more than that, as a kind, generous, loving human-being? Is it that the media influence is just too pervasive? Is it that some members of his own FAMILY did not know when to keep quiet about something they did not KNOW? (sure, that's been part of it, and SHAME!) Is it that most people live superficially and don't bother to do the work to cut through the media hype and find out what a situation, or a PERSON, is really about? I see that as our role, more than anything, to tell about and spread the love the Michael really was all about, more than anything.

I'm devastated by the light charges, but sadly, I expected them. (FYI, there will be more from M.J.A.N. in the coming days/weeks, continuing to call for accountability and justice.)

Even though the results were not what many of us wanted, there was a bright moment, at least. Which is, that Murray will not be practicing medicine, at least for awhile. Michael lost his LIFE, and Murray lost his career. It's not total justice, but it IS a step toward that.

Michael was NOT a addict. But, what if he was? Would that make us love him less, and if so, why? Would that negate the horror that Murray did to him? No, it would not. Michael was human. But, he was NOT an addict, as evidence has shown.

Truth runs marathons, and it is NOT over.
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:clapping:
 
Did anyone hear what I just heard on CNN, " the prosecution's expert admitted he made a MASSIVE mistake in calculating the amount of propofol found in Jackson's stomach and the prosecution for the first time admitted Jackson may have drunk the propofol and overdosed himself"

They are idiots, real idiots.
 
Guys what is this I'm hearing on AC 360 (CNN) that an expert witness admitted to making a math mistake when calculating the amount of propofol in MJ's stomach contents and that forced the prosecution for the first time to admit that MJ may have self administered the fatal dose?
 
Soundmind said:
Did anyone hear what I just heard on CNN, " the prosecution's expert admitted he made a MASSIVE mistake in calculating the amount of propofol found in Jackson's stomach and the prosecution for the first time admitted Jackson may have drunk the propofol and overdosed himself"

They are idiots, real idiots.
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I just saw that. I was like what? That's not what happened.
 
I read the experts testimony, yes he made a mistake, what an idiot, he had just made the calculations at noon during the break.


and yes he did agree with Flagan it was a big mistake, and if his calculations ( made at noon ) were correct it would make sense that MJ took propofol orally.

Why did they even use him, the guy is not used to speak for the victims , especially if the defendant is a doctor.

It won't change anything actually, but this expert is really an asshole.
 
Soundmind said:
Did anyone hear what I just heard on CNN, " the prosecution's expert admitted he made a MASSIVE mistake in calculating the amount of propofol found in Jackson's stomach and the prosecution for the first time admitted Jackson may have drunk the propofol and overdosed himself"

They are idiots, real idiots.
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I didn't hear that. That was not in testimony, was it? And if it was, why did we not hear it? Was that in a statement made in a press-conference, or what?

That goes along with the "Michael was an addict/addictive personality," and I'm SO not buying it. I'm wondering of the media crucifixion of Michael will ever END?

So THIS will be Murray's defense? That Michael was a total IDIOT and drank the propofol?

For God's sake, what will his chlldren think, having to hear all this crap?
 
He made a mistake in his testimony? Or am I getting this wrong? Can someone post that part of the testimony?
 
Soundmind said:
I read the experts testimony, yes he made a mistake, what an idiot, he had just made the calculations at noon during the break.


and yes he did agree with Flagan it was a big mistake, and if his calculations ( made at noon ) were correct it would make sense that MJ took propofol orally.

Why did they even use him, the guy is not used to speak for the victims , especially if the defendant is a doctor.

It won't change anything actually, but this expert is really an asshole.
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can you understand the mistake he made?

if the calculations are just done at lunch that means that they weren't used in the previous reports and determination. so what changes?
 
Jackson doctor will face trial on involuntary manslaughter charge

Michael Jackson's doctor will face trial on an involuntary manslaughter charge in the death of the pop superstar, a Los Angeles judge ruled Tuesday.

Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor also prohibited Dr. Conrad Murray from using his California medical license until the trial is completed. The state medical board requested that be made a provision of his bail.

While Jackson was Murray's only and last California patient, Murray's lawyer argued a suspension in one state would prompt Texas and Nevada, where he sees patients, to also take action.

Pastor denied the prosecution's request to increase Murray's bail, which is now set at $75,000.

"Michael is not with us today because of an utterly inept, incompetent, reckless doctor, the defendant Conrad Murray," Los Angeles County Deputy District Attorney David Walgren said in his final arguments.

Several Jackson's family members sat through the six-day preliminary hearing for Murray, but they would not talk about the ruling as they left court Tuesday.

The lawyer for Michael Jackson's estate issued a statement on behalf of the co-executors.

"The judge's ruling ordering Dr. Murray to stand trial for the death of Michael Jackson is perfectly appropriate given the testimony in this case," Howard Weitzman said.

Murray's lawyers appeared satisfied with the results of the preliminary hearing because of testimony they got from prosecution witnesses that might help raise reasonable doubt about Murray's guilt at trial.

"I think the prosecution is going to change their tactics in this case," defense lawyer J. Michael Flanagan said after court. "It's not the same as what they gave in opening statements."

Earlier Tuesday, the prosecution's expert witness in the case admitted he made a math mistake and that the recalculation supports the defense theory that Michael Jackson may have given himself the fatal dose of propofol.

Propofol is a surgical anesthetic that the Los Angeles coroner ruled killed Jackson in combination with several sedatives found in his blood.

Dr. Richard Ruffalo, an anesthesiologist hired by the prosecution, was the last witness to take the stand.

"I actually made a mistake on that," Ruffalo said during cross-examination, referring to his calculation of the levels of propofol in Jackson's stomach fluid.

The admission drew an audible gasp from Jackson family members sitting in court.

Murray's lawyers suggest a frustrated and sleepless Jackson may have poured the surgical anesthetic propofol into his juice bottle while the doctor was out of his bedroom.
"Now it doesn't make sense unless he ingested it orally in a huge amount," Ruffalo testified.

But he said Murray would still be at fault, because he left dangerous drugs near a patient who was addicted.

"It's like leaving a syringe next to a heroin addict," Ruffalo said. "If he's not getting what he wants, when you leave the room he might reach for it himself."

"Either way, it doesn't matter," he testified. "He abandoned his patient and didn't resuscitate appropriately."

Murray should have anticipated that Jackson, who had previously asked to inject himself, might do this, Ruffalo said.

"He gets upset if he doesn't get his milk," he said, referring to Jackson's habit of referring to propofol as his "milk."

The pop star's sister La Toya Jackson was clearly upset by hearing a prosecution witness vilify her brother as an addict.

The pathologist who conducted Jackson's autopsy acknowledged earlier Tuesday it was possible, although improbable, that Jackson gave himself the fatal dose of the propofol.

The defense planted the seed Monday for its theory that Jackson may have given himself the fatal dose. A doctor said in a police interview two days after the death that a sleepless Jackson begged Murray for propofol the day he died, a police detective testified.

While Murray told police he eventually gave Jackson propofol, the defense lawyer suggested that it could be that a frustrated Jackson poured the fatal dosage into his juice and drank it.

Jackson had depended on propofol to put him to sleep almost every night in the previous weeks as he was preparing for his "This Is It" comeback concerts, but Murray began to wean him off the surgical anesthetic two nights earlier, Murray told police.

Los Angeles Police Detective Orlando Martinez testified at the preliminary hearing about what the doctor told him two days after Jackson's death.

Several doses of two sedatives Murray used in place of propofol still hadn't put Jackson to sleep after several hours on the morning of June 25, 2009, Murray said, according to Martinez.

"Mr. Jackson began to complain that he couldn't sleep and that he would have to cancel his rehearsal and cancel his shows if he couldn't get any sleep since he couldn't perform," Martinez quoted Murray as saying.

A civil lawsuit filed last year by Jackson's mother against the company producing the concerts alleged that he had been warned a week earlier "that if Jackson missed any further rehearsals, they were going to 'pull the plug' on the show."

Murray said he eventually gave in to the pressure from his patient and administered a dose of propofol about 10 a.m., the detective testified. Jackson finally fell asleep, according to Murray's account.

While his patient slept, Murray sent an e-mail to a British insurance agent assuring him that Jackson was in good health, according to another witness Monday.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/11/california.conrad.murray.hearing/index.html
 
Flanagan.
Did you work our your map on the gastric over the noon hour? yes.

Certainly wasn’t in your report was it? No.

who did caliculations? I did.

Trying to back track for what he came up with the contents .0xx for prop. in stomach. No. Content would be numbers there. Concentration is per unit of volume.

Would you come up with those numbers, would you just ivide those numbers by 70? Yes.
In dividing by 70, piece of paper here... now wants to put that on the ELMO...

Flanagan, does this on the ELMO... converting it to concentation. the math. too funny.

Questions, about the fluid in the stomach. I stop typing. I don’t see how they are important.

Now askng about micrograms vs milligrams of the stomach content...

45x what it is in the hospital blood.
That doesn’t go with your theory.

Yes, I made a mistake.

Now if we have 45x whats in the stomach than what’s in the blood. then we have evidence of oral ingestion.

We may have to check with the coroner, to check with what the numbers mean. Now, it doesn’t make sense unless he ingested it orally.

SO he had to have ingested it orally?

obj misstates evidence.

So, I may have made an assumption, depending on how the coroner reported this.
(So, his calculation over lunch may not be correct.) (me)

So as it stands, you made a mistake. I made an interpretation mistake. I thought it was micrograms and it’s really milligrams.
So, we’re back to it being orally? Well, we’ll have to talk to the coroner.

It’s a big difference isnt’ it? I totally agree.
 
in other words , he made new calculations at noon, Flagan used that against him, later he backtracked everything and admitted his calculations at noon might have been wrong.


I know it's baseless argument and won't change anything , but I personally HATE him, and we are much better if he does not take the stand in this case.


His calculations indicated that in MJ's stomach the amount of propofol was 45x the amount in MJ's blood. and his stupid ass got n the stand and said that!!!!

He is an idiot indeed
 
Question: what type of bottles does Propofol comes in? Don't you need to stick a needle to the top to get it out? Are the bottles something that can be opened and poured?
 
Well, thank God we have finally gotten somewhere; no license now. I too, am disappointed about the charges but in no way am I surprised. I'm quite relieved that the prelim. has come to an end. Will we be finding out a trial date after the arraignment has taken place?
 
I'm confused. I don't get the mistake, although there is one according to that part of the testimony. I wish we had actual transcripts.

Did his testimony start before the lunch break and that's when he made the mistake, then he looked at it again during the lunch break and corrected his mistake after the break? Or was the noon calculation the one with the mistake?
 
I hope this doesn't cause big problems. I just can't believe Michael would take that orally and people here have said there would have been something in his mouth if he had right?
 
Soundmind said:
in other words , he made new calculations at noon, Flagan used that against him, later he backtracked everything and admitted his calculations at noon might have been wrong.


I know it's baseless argument and won't change anything , but I personally HATE him, and we are much better if he does not take the stand in this case.


His calculations indicated that in MJ's stomach the amount of propofol was 45x the amount in MJ's blood. and his stupid ass got n the stand and said that!!!!

He is an idiot indeed
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I wonder what is being done about this new information now? During trial can the autopsy Doc still claim that the amounts were due to efforts to revive Michael? Also, there is no evidence from his throat and mouth that he ingested prop.
 
ivy said:
Question: what type of bottles does Propofol comes in? Don't you need to stick a needle to the top to get it out? Are the bottles something that can be opened and poured?
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i think they have rubber stoppers and you have to stick a needle in it to get it out

TarinJade said:
Well, thank God we have finally gotten somewhere; no license now. I too, am disappointed about the charges but in no way am I surprised. I'm quite relieved that the prelim. has come to an end. Will we be finding out a trial date after the arraignment has taken place?
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yes we should know a court date after the arraignment
 
ivy said:
Question: what type of bottles does Propofol comes in? Don't you need to stick a needle to the top to get it out? Are the bottles something that can be opened and poured?
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Good question ...

Propofol_280_837489a.jpg


It looks a bit like pouring it wouldn't be easy.
 
Petrarose said:
I wonder what is being done about this new information now? During trial can the autopsy Doc still claim that the amounts were due to efforts to revive Michael? Also, there is no evidence from his throat and mouth that he ingested prop.
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He made a mistake TODAY doing the calculations not during the autopsy. And I think they actually took Michael's tongue out during the autopsy so if there was an issue they would have seen it
 
The prosecution asked him about the possibility that MJ could have taken it orally since Flagan brought up that possibility with the coroner , he said unlikely. during break he made some calculations and come back telling them the amounts in his stomach was 45x the amount in his blood. No wonder he was throwing the word " known addict" everywhere. Probably when he made that calculation he said to himself " wait, he must have done it himself, he drunk it, but I should keep blaming Murray that's why I'm here"

After that he BACKTRACKED the calculations he made at noon , and admitted he might have done something wrong .


Don't worry, nothing in the autopsy is based on his opinion, he made it clear that he asked the coroner not to send the opinion of the expert quoted in the autopsy report because that could have "influenced his findings "

He is independent 'expert', asked to come ONLY because the DA did not want the defence to question the configuration of the IV set up which was bound to happen if the expert quoted in the autopsy report was called .
 
Soundmind said:
The prosecution asked him about the possibility that MJ could have taken it orally since Flagan brought up that possibility with the coroner , he said unlikely. during break he made some calculations and come back telling them the amounts in his stomach was 45x the amount in his blood. No wonder he was throwing the word " known addict" everywhere. Probably when he made that calculation he said to himself " wait, he must have done it himself, he drunk it, but I should keep blaming Murray that's why I'm here"

After that he BACKTRACKED the calculations he made at noon , and admitted he might have done something wrong .


Don't worry, nothing in the autopsy is based on his opinion, he made it clear that he asked the coroner not to send the opinion of the expert quoted in the autopsy report because that could have "influenced his findings "

He is independent 'expert', asked to come ONLY because the DA did not want the defence to question the configuration of the IV set up which was bound to happen if the expert quoted in the autopsy report was called .
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Thanks for clearing that up. I was beginning to feel very upset. Now of course the news will run with this in the opposite direction.
 
I don't understand all this. I really can't imagine Michael would somehow drink the Propofol. If it burns being injected into the skin it has got to burn going into the mouth and down the throat. There has got to be another explanation. Maybe the resuscitation efforts thing could still apply?
 
So the correct calculation was the first one, not the 45 x as much as in blood one?
 
there is absolutely NOWAY that Michael drank propofol under his own will....if it was ingested.....Murray put it in his drinkbox..or juice bottle...which ever he was drinking at the time....I dont know why they are trying to make Michael look like some drug feen that couldn't get enough for his fix..that is pure and utter crap..I dont know how they expect people to believe that stuff...I mean really. People wonder why some folks bring conspiracy into Michael's death..because seriously think about it.....with that much propfol in his stomach....someone wanted Michael dead...that is obvious. again I will say..Michael was NOT stupid..he would not of drank propofol....thats like saying that I would drink acid.....thats just stupid.
 
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Justthefacts said:
He made a mistake TODAY doing the calculations not during the autopsy. And I think they actually took Michael's tongue out during the autopsy so if there was an issue they would have seen it
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oh my god why would they need to do that? what would be the purpose of that?
 
Justthefacts said:
He made a mistake TODAY doing the calculations not during the autopsy. And I think they actually took Michael's tongue out during the autopsy so if there was an issue they would have seen it
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reading it in the autopsy report is different than seeing it written here..:boohoo:
 
I can't read the autopsy report. It's too much and if they took his tongue out. That's too much.

In the trial they will put the expert on the stand that is quoted in the autopsy not this independent guy?
 
Are we sure a smooth criminal attacked Annie in her apartment? Maybe SHE invited him in and ran into the knife!

Rolls eyes, can't stand these clowns in suits anymore. I miss Michael so bad.
 
xthunderx2 said:
reading it in the autopsy report is different than seeing it written here..:boohoo:
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This guy had nothing to do with the autopsy. He goofed up his math today. The coroner said Michael had small amounts of propofol in his stomach this guy said he had a lot more
 
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