Preliminary Hearing 5/1/11 Day two. Discussion thread

[gerryevans]

tmz lied the paramedic never said it was signs of a D.A

Yeah, I know. I was just pointing out the ridiculousness of one of their defenses that Murray didn't know about MJ being an addict, like if he had or was, it would have made a difference, yet a paramedic walks in the room and instantly knows. If a paramedic knew immediately, then surely the doctor treating him for weeks would know and adjust his treatment. It just goes to the point that Murray didn't care what MJ was or wasn't He wanted his paycheck.

 

[bouee]

the D.A decided if theres gonna be a plea bargin so it makes no difference. its not like murray can say ill plead guilty to a lesser charge. its upto the da

thanks, yes I know that. But what would happen if the DA can not prove "beyond reasonable doubt" one of the higher charge ? Can he be cornered into plea bargain ?

I don't agree with the IM charge either, the only thing I like about it is that I can't see any option for the defense with such a low charge.

 

[angelofhope]

Why is Chernoff so obessesed with Michael wearing a cap at night? As far as I understand Michael had a weave/extensions and would wear a cap at night to protect his hair. At best this is plain stupid at worst plain racist. Anyway WHO CARES? Mj has no dignity left, shower caps, penises. I wish someone would put a cap over Chernoff's mouth.

 

[bouee]

Why is Chernoff so obessesed with Michael wearing a cap at night? As far as I understand Michael had a weave/extensions and would wear a cap at night to protect his hair. At best this is plain stupid at worst plain racist. Anyway WHO CARES? Mj has no dignity left, shower caps, penises. I wish someone would put a cap over Chernoff's mouth.

Did Chernoff really say that ???? Yes it is stupid and hateful, and if he did say that, well his stupidity was exposed...A lot of people in a courtroom (including the jurors) will see it that way I guess. I would be happy to use that against him. His client is suspected of killing someone and all he thinks of is insisting on these kind of details ?? Wow.

 

[Tipareth]

I've been suffering from insomnia for more than 20 years. It's horrible and one MIGHT beg doctors do give them all kinds of things for it. That's why I said, if he actually asked for it, that doesn't mean anything and is something that should be seen as a "symptom" of insomnia, because you do get desperate at times. Every doctor knows or should know that. And tell you "no".

Yes it is. I suffered from severe insomnia for 4 years, and I was like 'please hit me with a hammer in the head, give me everything just to sleep a while'

I was beyond desperate, the pain of being without sleep for weeks, I cannot describe it. You are near insanity because of the desperation.

So the jury need to understand the severity of insomnia. And asking for being put to sleep occurs in patients who got worse kind of it.




However Mike asking for Propofol - I have big doubts about it. All we know is hearsay, some saying he might used before during History tour...
How about Lisa Marie spending nights with him, Debbie Rowe, and children as guests in Mike suite??
or the trial times, with Mike being wake and in the courtroom everyday? Was him on Propofol that time?
--> I think these questions should be asked and investigated.

 

[Tipareth]

Hi everyone,

About Kai Chase : I don't understand why she was called to testify. She didn't say much, apart from confirming that Murray didn't ask her to call 911.
As another poster said, I find it weird she said that it was strange MJ and Murray didn't eat their dinner after coming back from rehearsal, it sounded unusual. You are not supposed to eat before an anesthesia, so why would it be unusual ??

I find this interesting. That tells us that Mike ate other nights, when supposedly Murray gave him Propofol.

So if Mike ate and then Murray put him under.... See the discordance?

Maybe this is indication that Propofol wasn't used before, and Mike ate, of course, his dinners.

I am highly suspicious toward Mike ever using Propofol for insomnia. I think he used other drugs and sedatives, and also hydrate via IV and maybe some oxygen ( he got some lung problems - see autopsy report )

 

[twinklEE]

Based on just two days testimony, it seems like he did everything he could to make sure no one was able to revive MJ. I don't think we've seen testimony as of yet to show he killed him intentionally, but I do believe based on the testimony thus far that he did intentionally ensure that no one was able to revive MJ, i.e. 1) not calling 911 right away, 2) not telling the paramedics or the hospital staff that he gave MJ propofol, 3) as was mentioned in a recent post he broke the IV/syringe in MJ's leg when the paramedics told him to use that same one to get MJ some ephedrine to start his heart.

Not knowing CPR, I can label that as incompetency, maybe even 3) above, but 1) and 2) can't just be attributed to incompetency. Even I would know to do 1) and 2) above. One can justifiably argue that that was intentional.

I hate to accuse anyone of something so severe, but I just can't grasp how an experienced doctor can be so incompetent. This whole thing just boggles my mind. His actions are beyond my comprehension.

Ditto

Funny, Katherine didn't make such a plea when her children, husband, and friends were calling Michael an addict. Where was this outrage when Oxman went on every new show and called Michael an addict? Where was it when Janet called him an addict or Randy or Rebbie.

Unfortunately I have to agree with that as well

I don't understand how one mistake after another was made by Murray. You wouldn't believe he had any medical experience by the way everything is sounding.

Very true, this guy has made a mockery out of a doctor's profession, where the heck did he get his medical degree from? The University of Dumbass-Asshole-Reckless-Scum-Trash SOB of Trinidad? It's just so frustrating to sit here and read that this piece of trash did everything he could to make sure, Michael could not be saved. What a freaking ****!

so anyway I think we should all give Ivy and Bluetopez and others who have kept us updated a big thank you.

A very big and sincere thank you from my side as well. To all of those who kept us informed.

As for the shower cap/sleeping cap comment, what a racist thing to say, I wear shower caps/sleeping caps to sleep when I curl my hair. I guess I'm an addict as well according to Chernoff & Co's. knowledge and wisdom?

 

[8701girl]

chernoff is stupid...it was a sleeping cap.

Most black folks who perm their hair use a silk scarf on their hair to protect it. there you have it.

Thanx for explaing that

Oops, I can see how my post may be taken out of context.... I was referring to the defense's position that Murray did not give the fatal dose; of course I believe he did. Sorry, it's hard to type being this frazzled by everything.

Its ok :hug: i reckon we all are very frazzled at right now

 

[hilliver]

Was there nobody in that house that was capable of using some initiative? Alavarez claims he was told to hide stuff, if any one of us had walked into that scene, stuff doing what Murrey said, we would have reached for the nearest phone, we would have made sure the paramedics knew about drugs and equiptment that Murrey wanted hidden. I am finding that the raw pain I still feel when you hear about Michael is turning into sheer anger once again, the more I hear the more I think someone paid Murrey, are we supposed to believe he didn't know how to do CPR? I just plain don't believe it.

 

[Lucilla]

About Kai Chase
As another poster said, I find it weird she said that it was strange MJ and Murray didn't eat their dinner after coming back from rehearsal, it sounded unusual. You are not supposed to eat before an anesthesia, so why would it be unusual ??

I find this interesting.

That tells us that Mike ate other nights, when supposedly Murray gave him Propofol.

So if Mike ate and then Murray put him under.... See the discordance?

Maybe this is indication that Propofol wasn't used before, and Mike ate, of course, his dinners.

This is important.

 

[8701girl]

Was there nobody in that house that was capable of using some initiative? Alavarez claims he was told to hide stuff, if any one of us had walked into that scene, stuff doing what Murrey said, we would have reached for the nearest phone, we would have made sure the paramedics knew about drugs and equiptment that Murrey wanted hidden. I am finding that the raw pain I still feel when you hear about Michael is turning into sheer anger once again, the more I hear the more I think someone paid Murrey, are we supposed to believe he didn't know how to do CPR? I just plain don't believe it.

If i had walked in that scence i would have grabbed murray by the ear, take him outside & kick his @ss!

 

[twinklEE]

If i had walked in that scence i would have grabbed murray by the ear, take him outside & kick his @ss!

I would have given him his lethal dose of Diprivan since he was so eager to give it to other people.

 

[bouee]

I find this interesting. That tells us that Mike ate other nights, when supposedly Murray gave him Propofol.

So if Mike ate and then Murray put him under.... See the discordance?

Maybe this is indication that Propofol wasn't used before, and Mike ate, of course, his dinners.

I am highly suspicious toward Mike ever using Propofol for insomnia. I think he used other drugs and sedatives, and also hydrate via IV and maybe some oxygen ( he got some lung problems - see autopsy report )

Yes I found this part of Kai's testimony strange. But I simply don't understand, I cannot interpret that, we need more info, the transcripts, or wait for the actual trial.

On the other hand, search warrants showed that Murray was buying propofol since mid may. Or at least that he bought some mid may. Why would he have so much propofol if it was just for one night ?

Also we don't have the hair tox result, but the prosecution does. Hopefully it will show what exactly what Michael had been given in the weeks prior to his death. If that doesn't come up during the prelim, it will surely come up duroing the trial.

Nicole Alvarez testimony tomorrow might help also tomorrow.

 

[MJFan07]

About Kai Chase : I don't understand why she was called to testify. She didn't say much, apart from confirming that Murray didn't ask her to call 911.
As another poster said, I find it weird she said that it was strange MJ and Murray didn't eat their dinner after coming back from rehearsal, it sounded unusual. You are not supposed to eat before an anesthesia, so why would it be unusual ??

It's unusual b/c MJ typically ate dinner. If Murray claims he was giving MJ propofal for 2 months and MJ typically ate dinner late at night when he came back from rehearsal you could say that's another instance of Murray not following protocal. I think her testimony shows this was not a typical day, i.e. MJ didn't eat dinner, nor breakfast the following morning at 10 (as was his routine), nor lunch at noon. If this was all part of MJ's typical routine, why did Murray give him propofal at 10:40 a.m? I think her testimony shows that she is yet another person that Murray did not ask to call 911, and additionally that this was a very atypical routine from a normal day.

 

[MJFan07]

the only people besides the ones youve mention are; the anestheiologist from the history tour(he admitted it on camera) and the doctor who said he emailed asked her about it and she emailed him back(i believe the emails were on tmz).

I think the anesthesiologist said no comment. I don't believe he admitted it.

 

[8701girl]

I would have given him his lethal dose of Diprivan since he was so eager to give it to other people.

Then again giving him to the police may be a better idea ...

 

[StaceyMJ]

Yes it is. I suffered from severe insomnia for 4 years, and I was like 'please hit me with a hammer in the head, give me everything just to sleep a while'

I was beyond desperate, the pain of being without sleep for weeks, I cannot describe it. You are near insanity because of the desperation.

So the jury need to understand the severity of insomnia. And asking for being put to sleep occurs in patients who got worse kind of it.




However Mike asking for Propofol - I have big doubts about it. All we know is hearsay, some saying he might used before during History tour...
How about Lisa Marie spending nights with him, Debbie Rowe, and children as guests in Mike suite??
or the trial times, with Mike being wake and in the courtroom everyday? Was him on Propofol that time?
--> I think these questions should be asked and investigated.

Yes it surely is a situation that is hard to understand unless you have actually been there yourself.

Add to the fact the intense situation that Michael was in. The pressure of the shows. He was great with the pressure, we saw that in TII. But, sleep is vital in those situations or it makes everything seem so much worse. This is a man who was on trial 4 years prior and this was his 'comeback'...so much pressure. He was after all, only human. How much can one person take?

I don't blame Michael at all....not one bit. This isn't something you would do for fun. He must have been severely desperate to go through these means. I blame Murray, for being a complete idiot and allowing this to even be considered let alone actually doing it in the way he did. It just beggars belief...it's very frustrating and heartbreaking that this should have been completely unavoidable.

Oh Michael...

 

[loveforever]

Based on just two days testimony, it seems like he did everything he could to make sure no one was able to revive MJ. I don't think we've seen testimony as of yet to show he killed him intentionally, but I do believe based on the testimony thus far that he did intentionally ensure that no one was able to revive MJ, i.e. 1) not calling 911 right away, 2) not telling the paramedics or the hospital staff that he gave MJ propofol, 3) as was mentioned in a recent post he broke the IV/syringe in MJ's leg when the paramedics told him to use that same one to get MJ some ephedrine to start his heart.

Not knowing CPR, I can label that as incompetency, maybe even 3) above, but 1) and 2) can't just be attributed to incompetency. Even I would know to do 1) and 2) above. One can justifiably argue that that was intentional.

I hate to accuse anyone of something so severe, but I just can't grasp how an experienced doctor can be so incompetent. This whole thing just boggles my mind. His actions are beyond my comprehension.

It's unusual b/c MJ typically ate dinner. If Murray claims he was giving MJ propofal for 2 months and MJ typically ate dinner late at night when he came back from rehearsal you could say that's another instance of Murray not following protocal. I think her testimony shows this was not a typical day, i.e. MJ didn't eat dinner, nor breakfast the following morning at 10 (as was his routine), nor lunch at noon. If this was all part of MJ"s typical routine, why did Murray give him propofal at 10:40 a.m? I think her testimony shows that she is yet another person that Murray did not ask to call 911, and additionally that this was a very aytipcal routine from a normal day.

this. things seemed so fishy. The more I know the case, the more I realized Murray's behaviors were so odd, is he acting stupid?

 

[MJ~And~Me]

It's unusual b/c MJ typically ate dinner. If Murray claims he was giving MJ propofal for 2 months and MJ typically ate dinner late at night when he came back from rehearsal you could say that's another instance of Murray not following protocal. I think her testimony shows this was not a typical day, i.e. MJ didn't eat dinner, nor breakfast the following morning at 10 (as was his routine), nor lunch at noon. If this was all part of MJ's typical routine, why did Murray give him propofal at 10:40 a.m? I think her testimony shows that she is yet another person that Murray did not ask to call 911, and additionally that this was a very atypical routine from a normal day.

i didnt know that he wasnt eating or drinking :no:someone should of put of the rehersals until he started eating again :yes:but then again that is what part of the problem was :yes:

If i had walked in that scence i would have grabbed murray by the ear, take him outside & kick his @ss!

me to

Yes it surely is a situation that is hard to understand unless you have actually been there yourself.

Add to the fact the intense situation that Michael was in. The pressure of the shows. He was great with the pressure, we saw that in TII. But, sleep is vital in those situations or it makes everything seem so much worse. This is a man who was on trial 4 years prior and this was his 'comeback'...so much pressure. He was after all, only human. How much can one person take?

I don't blame Michael at all....not one bit. This isn't something you would do for fun. He must have been severely desperate to go through these means. I blame Murray, for being a complete idiot and allowing this to even be considered let alone actually doing it in the way he did. It just beggars belief...it's very frustrating and heartbreaking that this should have been completely unavoidable.

Oh Michael...

i agree with everthing you said :yes:he not only wanted to do 10 concerts not 50

 

[slimblonde2]

All very shocking, and the paramedic thought MJ was a hospice patient? That means he must have looked very bad, if a paramedic has that opinion. So how come no one else seems to think MJ looked ill, even at the rehearsal 12 hours before? Or did they turn a blind eye?

 

[PCR]

Based on just two days testimony, it seems like he did everything he could to make sure no one was able to revive MJ. I don't think we've seen testimony as of yet to show he killed him intentionally, but I do believe based on the testimony thus far that he did intentionally ensure that no one was able to revive MJ, i.e. 1) not calling 911 right away, 2) not telling the paramedics or the hospital staff that he gave MJ propofol, 3) as was mentioned in a recent post he broke the IV/syringe in MJ's leg when the paramedics told him to use that same one to get MJ some ephedrine to start his heart.

Not knowing CPR, I can label that as incompetency, maybe even 3) above, but 1) and 2) can't just be attributed to incompetency. Even I would know to do 1) and 2) above. One can justifiably argue that that was intentional.

I hate to accuse anyone of something so severe, but I just can't grasp how an experienced doctor can be so incompetent. This whole thing just boggles my mind. His actions are beyond my comprehension.

It's unusual b/c MJ typically ate dinner. If Murray claims he was giving MJ propofal for 2 months and MJ typically ate dinner late at night when he came back from rehearsal you could say that's another instance of Murray not following protocal. I think her testimony shows this was not a typical day, i.e. MJ didn't eat dinner, nor breakfast the following morning at 10 (as was his routine), nor lunch at noon. If this was all part of MJ"s typical routine, why did Murray give him propofal at 10:40 a.m? I think her testimony shows that she is yet another person that Murray did not ask to call 911, and additionally that this was a very aytipcal routine from a normal day.

I totally agree. Without going off topic into something that will lead you to ask me to avoid "conspiracy talking", one can't deny there are really and undeniably reasons to question what was leading CM to do as bad as he did over and over again. I will not give any more details, but I do believe this must be investigated, especially if there are other claims (in the case of Katherine against AEG) stating he was a "long time doctor" for Michael. I can understand you hire a doctor "for a long time" because you trust him and he has been a great doctor for you. So if he was such a great doctor, how is it that he turned into a useless doctor in a matter of hours in one night?
Sorry, but things simply don't add up. This must be taken to trial for there are simply too many details to believe CM is a criminal, or at least a careless doctor, which means he is a criminal with licence to "protect" people's lives, which is beyond stupid and dangerous.

 

[twinklEE]

Yes it surely is a situation that is hard to understand unless you have actually been there yourself.

Add to the fact the intense situation that Michael was in. The pressure of the shows. He was great with the pressure, we saw that in TII. But, sleep is vital in those situations or it makes everything seem so much worse. This is a man who was on trial 4 years prior and this was his 'comeback'...so much pressure. He was after all, only human. How much can one person take?

I don't blame Michael at all....not one bit. This isn't something you would do for fun. He must have been severely desperate to go through these means. I blame Murray, for being a complete idiot and allowing this to even be considered let alone actually doing it in the way he did. It just beggars belief...it's very frustrating and heartbreaking that this should have been completely unavoidable.

Oh Michael...

I agree Stacey. I don't blame Michael either. Like you said he must have been extremely desperate to even go to these messures. ..
I just don't get this whole thing, he surely did not deserve any of this. This is so heart wrenching and seeing Murray be unfazed and continue to front like he did nothing wrong, gosh now I shouldn't write what I feel but I sincerely hope that this man has an extremely cruel and painful ending. This is not fair, not at all.
Poor Michael

 

[PCR]

Yes it surely is a situation that is hard to understand unless you have actually been there yourself.

Add to the fact the intense situation that Michael was in. The pressure of the shows. He was great with the pressure, we saw that in TII. But, sleep is vital in those situations or it makes everything seem so much worse. This is a man who was on trial 4 years prior and this was his 'comeback'...so much pressure. He was after all, only human. How much can one person take?

I don't blame Michael at all....not one bit. This isn't something you would do for fun. He must have been severely desperate to go through these means. I blame Murray, for being a complete idiot and allowing this to even be considered let alone actually doing it in the way he did. It just beggars belief...it's very frustrating and heartbreaking that this should have been completely unavoidable.

Oh Michael...

This.
We just can't deny there are clear facts here. If a paramedic says he looks frail and as a hospice patient, I can't help but be shocked, but this just shows the extremes Michael was forced to go just to get the rest he so desperately needed. And if all this was happaning for at least 6 days a week, during the previous 6 weeks, you can understand before this "treatment" he was not sleeping at all, and it must have showed. I mean, seriously, friends, we know one someone has had a bad night sleep or no sleep at all. We know when our colleagues are like that! And if a paramedic says he was/looked that frail, I must believe him. The man's job IS dealing with severely injured and dying people on a daily basis!! He must be able to tell the difference between beein "thin", being "rather normal" and "being fat", don't you think? If it was any commong guy, I could argue.

Besides, we can be choosing which parts to believe and which parts to deny when it comes to such a critically key witness.

I would really like to see Dr. Klein there too. He has to explain what he was giving to Michael all these years too. And why :angry: Michael needed to sleep and rest. He must have been given the assitance and support he needed, for his life was in risk, whether he liked it or not. It was a matter of life. And instead of doing so, instead of helping him, they use his desperate need for sleep as a hook to keep him going. Enablers must be prosecuted too. And I hope you will not call me a hater for saying this. In fact, I don't see why one should be called a hater for saying they abused Michael. For they did, in my opinion.

Sorry. I am not going off topic here. All this is part of what was said in court and all this is part of a bigger picture. Michael needed to rest. Michael needed a helping hand. That doctor and any other doctor around him must have help him to get healthy and to get the rest and sleep he needed the right way. And see what happened

 

[StacyJ]

I hate to bring Mike's family and friends into this but did anyone care? if the EMT is saying MJ looked ill and like a hospice patient why in the heck didn't anyone help Michael? Did Katherine talk or visit her son at all? she claimed she saw him a week before he died. Did he look like a hospice patient then?

Poor MJ.. He had absolutely no one that cared about him. It was all about the money with everyone. His children were probably concerned but what could they do, they're children? Where was Mike's family? didn't LaToya live around the corner from Mike in Beverly Hills?

 

[Laura.L.]

First of all, THANK YOU to everyone who's keeping us updated. I don't know what I would do without you guys, without MJJC. Thank you. :huggy:

Guys, do not hate on Chernoff. He's slimey but he's your unintentional friend here. Trust. I've not seen a more perfect match of attorney/client in the "not too bright" dept. than Chern. and Murr. It's almost criminal that one has a license to practice medicine and the other has a license to practice law.

LOL, quoted for truth!

That's not true! Erin on utream said that Senneff said how can I even answer that? He didn't know where the DEFENSE was going with that! And the judge cut off right there! He never answered yes to that question!

It's outrageous how TMZ intentionally twists things, makes me so angry!!!

All very shocking, and the paramedic thought MJ was a hospice patient? That means he must have looked very bad, if a paramedic has that opinion. So how come no one else seems to think MJ looked ill, even at the rehearsal 12 hours before? Or did they turn a blind eye?

I hate to bring Mike's family and friends into this but did anyone care? if the EMT is saying MJ looked ill and like a hospice patient why in the heck didn't anyone help Michael? Did Katherine talk or visit her son at all? she claimed she saw him a week before he died. Did he look like a hospice patient then?

^^ We've all seen footage of the rehearsals on June 24th. Did Michael look like a hospice patient to you? For me he didn't. In my eyes he looked perfectly good, as always. Thin, but very good. The reason why he might've appeared hospice to the paramedics was because of the condition he [Michael] was found in; mouth and eyes wide open, rigid body, pale skin, blueish feet, personal physician at hand, IV drip next to him, shower cap (or whatever) on his head.. So obviously he would look dramatically different in that setting than he did a few days/weeks before hand. He was already dead when the paramedics got there. That is the heartbreaking truth.


Gosh, I'm desperate for the official transcripts, I wish we'd somehow get our hands on those..

 

[PCR]

I hate to bring Mike's family and friends into this but did anyone care? if the EMT is saying MJ looked ill and like a hospice patient why in the heck didn't anyone help Michael? Did Katherine talk or visit her son at all? she claimed she saw him a week before he died. Did he look like a hospice patient then?

Poor MJ.. He had absolutely no one that cared about him. It was all about the money with everyone. His children were probably concerned but what could they do, they're children? Where was Mike's family? didn't LaToya live around the corner from Mike in Beverly Hills?

I hear you and it really bothers me too.
I live... well, back in my country I live very close to my sisters and we see each other often and they are quick to jump on me if my hair looks strange (for whatever reason, when I am too sad or too stressed my hair goes from wavy to straight) and even if I say things are ok, they keep pushing to face wha's wrong. However, theere's a point when it is all up to you to really face the man/girl in the mirrow and recognize things can't go on that way.

But... you can do it if you are in a state that allows you to face facts. If Michael was having such serious problems and getting no sleep, you just and expect him to be that clear about this. And no, I am not being a hater when I say he was IN NEED OF HELP. If I don't sleep for one 2 days I can hardly think at all. There is a very good reason for authorities to ask people not to drive if they haven't got any sleep!! Just think of that going on for weeks to degree that he would accept being put a IV and a catheter just to get some sleep.... Whatever the doctor said to him, one can play with fire just so much. He acknowledged this problems not only once, but at least twice before. There's footage of him talking about this. And the "long time doctor" was not aware of it? and he didn't try to get Michael OUT of that????? And he says he didn't do anything wrong?????

Seriously :no:

 

[ginvid]

Memefan and others:

While I think some questions are good to ask, can we please examine these in another thread at another time and focus the task at hand here, please. You have to realize how difficult the statements are for some at this moment. Let's just all have a little compassion on everyone else.

MJ was at a time in his life that he was struggling very much. Many of us are strugglibng very much at this time as well and just coming to terms with his death all over again is very difficult.

So, can we pleasenot focus on this at this exact moment and leave this thread for a more objective analysis of what took place as opposed to a subjective analysis of MJ's state of mind. I am not saying that is not important, but for now and this thread, let's not focus on this.

Thanks. Please understand.

 

[ginvid]

Also, (Sorry for the DP) the paramedic said MJ looked frail and thin and as a hospice patient for several reasons:

1. He had been dead for what they estimate as 20 minutes
2. He already begun to turn blue
3. He was hooked up to an IV
4. He had a personal doctor

Let's not turn this into a our perception that MJ must have looked unhealthy while rehearsing. In terms of his body weight and his appearance (at least for the last few days) we have testimony and a coroner's report that MJ was on the low side, but a healythy weight for his height and age.

When you die, and you were put through the rigner in a panicked situation as MJ was, what do you expeect the paramedics to find when they entered the room?

We have to be very careful here about taking some parts and not all parts in an effort to make it fit what we perceived to have happened. We haveto be willing to throw out our beliefs as more information comes forward. But also be willing to marry up subjective context with known scientific facts that cannot be changed. He was 136 lbs when he died. We see him on the screen vivacious, very strong and not frail at all. The paramedics commented at they did because of the circumstances of the room and the body, not just because of MJ;s appearance alone.

Let's remember to not jump the gun here and start attacking where it is not due. Not yet anyway.

 

[PCR]

Memefan and others:

While I think some questions are good to ask, can we please examine these in another thread at another time and focus the task at hand here, please. You have to realize how difficult the statements are for some at this moment. Let's just all have a little compassion on everyone else.

MJ was at a time in his life that he was struggling very much. Many of us are strugglibng very much at this time as well and just coming to terms with his death all over again is very difficult.

So, can we pleasenot focus on this at this exact moment and leave this thread for a more objective analysis of what took place as opposed to a subjective analysis of MJ's state of mind. I am not saying that is not important, but for now and this thread, let's not focus on this.

Thanks. Please understand.

Ginvid... you know I really appreciate your daily hard work on each of the threads in the forum. You and the staff are just wonderful and you really do your best to protect us all. Always. I truly appreciate your every effort. I do my best to stick to the guidelines and rules in the forum, but there comes a point when we just can't stop asking these questions.

All our concerns ARE part of the discussion of what was said in the court. Do you really believe it is only us wondering why MJ would allow this to be done to him? As far as I know, and of course I might be quite wrong, Memefan for one is not a conspiracy believer (if I am wrong, please excuse me, Memefan ). These are valid questions. Should we have a "Why do you believe MJ would allow CM to do this or that?" thread? If so... how are we to discuss that without the input of what is happening in court?

I really believe deep in my heart that painful and terrible as it might be, we need to challenge ourselves with these questions, for it's the only reason to get some idea of what happened to Michael. He didn't just die "suddenly", but he rather died as a consequence of a serious of wrong and criminal actions over a period of time. Two months, at least.

MJ's reasons to do this are important and are a part of the investigation. If they get to understand how desperate was his need for sleep, they will also be able to see how guilty this CM fellow is. In my personal opinion, MJ's needs only add to the evidence against CM and just shows he couldn't really stop CM, but it was CM who should have avoid doing this to Michael over and over again, while giving him a sense of "no problem, friend, I can handle it".

All that said, I don't want to be banned. I just need to express my concerns and opinions. If this is disturbing, I will do my best to follow the rules, though. However, I can't promise I will not bring the concerns again. I am sorry for all this nightmare thanks for understanding this too.

 

[ivy]

Also, (Sorry for the DP) the paramedic said MJ looked frail and thin and as a hospice patient for several reasons:

1. He had been dead for what they estimate as 20 minutes
2. He already begun to turn blue
3. He was hooked up to an IV
4. He had a personal doctor

Let's not turn this into a our perception that MJ must have looked unhealthy while rehearsing. In terms of his body weight and his appearance (at least for the last few days) we have testimony and a coroner's report that MJ was on the low side, but a healythy weight for his height and age.

When you die, and you were put through the rigner in a panicked situation as MJ was, what do you expeect the paramedics to find when they entered the room?

ginvid is right with this explanation. Last night from several sources I collected what Senneff had said (see below) , it's obvious that from his comment the IV stand and the doctor played an important role in his initial perception also he mentions the weight last.

when you walk into an unknown room and see a unknown person with an IV and a doctor, what would u think? The most reasonable answer is sick.

- Senneff testified when they initially came in they thought MJ to be a hospice patient (Senneff said he did not recognize Jackson) and frail as he looked pale, thin and had a IV stand and a personal doctor by his bedside. "I don't often see an IV pole and a doctor on hand," Senneff said. "The patient appeared to be pale and underweight, I was thinking along the lines that he was a hospice patient."