Preliminary Hearing 5/1/11 Day two. Discussion thread

  • Thread starter elusive moonwalker
  • Start date
I have just seen a report on skynews, and they said the same thing "a vial, with a milky residue in it, inside an IV bag"

Murray was trying to keep the floor clean avoiding a leak from the vial ???

I think it was as stated before for the vial to not get contaminated.

So there was no missing second IV bag. What size was that vial? did they ask him that?

Did Alvarez say that VIAL was hooked to something or just hanging there? if it was just there with no attachment to any tubing, Chernoff can't claim MJ increased the IV drip and overdose himself. Back to syringe and bolus injections.
 
They'll try anything to get murray off later and spread doubt: "was it dark" (implying the bodyguards couldn't see everything well, "did they touch the IV" (implying maybe someone else inserted the propofol...
 
It isnt being broadcast. You can check here for updates, or in the other thread, where only info is being posted (no discussion).
 
From what I can see here is the defense grasping at straws. By asking if it was dark in the room they can claim that the bodyguards would not have seen what was going on. But at that time of the day even with the curtains closed the room wouldn't have been dark. Darkened yes if the curtains were closed but not dark.
 
Ramona122003;3175712 said:
He claimed to have known Michael was dead on the bed, so wouldn't you call for help first and pray that the MTs can revive the person instead of picking up drugs?

We don't know that Alberto didn't know 911 hadn't been called. I think I probably would assume that Murray had already called (since that would be the FIRST thing I'd do if I were the one who found him). I would assume that help was already on the way and in the meantime I'd probably do whatever the doctor (at the time, the respected higher authority) asked me to do.

If it was you and you saw someone who was dead, would you be picking up their medication and hiding it? I don't mean this to be mean, but I don't think that would be the first human response.

My whole point was that it may not have appeared to him that he was being involved in a cover-up. If he'd told me point blank "Hurry up, we have to hide all of this before anyone sees it, before we call for help" - then yeah, of course, I'd leave the room and call 911 and tell them what I just witnessed. But we don't know what went on and what was said. And I highly doubt that's how it appeared to him.

ivy;3175717 said:
“You didn’t think it was suspicious?” asked defense lawyer Ed Chernoff.

“Apparently not, sir,” Alvarez said.

“You thought he was packing up to go to the hospital, right?” the lawyer asked.

“Yes, sir,” Alvarez replied.

Hindsight makes it hard to imagine what it was like at that time.

He was probably in absolute and total shock and here's this doctor that you know, who has been there every night for months, MJ's trusted right hand - the only adult allowed upstairs - and there's a medical emergency where you're called in with zero knowledge of what's been going on - yeah, I think I'd probably be letting him call the shots.

If we later find out that he told him to "hide" the vials, or "clean up before anyone gets here" or asked him to omit info, then I'll take back what I've just said as those are CLEARLY red flags that something shady is going on. But as of right now, we have no transcript and only sounbytes regarding what went on in that room that morning. I have no reason not to trust Alvarez at the moment, no reason to think that he didn't do what he thought was right at the time.

Justthefacts;3175715 said:
We are talking from our computers about what we would have done. None of us where there

Exactly.

I just think we need to wait until he have the full transcript - the full story, word for word.
 
I have just seen a report on skynews, and they said the same thing "a vial, with a milky residue in it, inside an IV bag"
thats different to the direct quote from the below article.the milky stuff was in the bag not the bottle


“I noticed that inside (the IV bag), there was like a bottle ... and then I noticed that at the bottom of the bag there was a milk-like substance,” Alvarez testified. The surgical anesthetic propofol –- which the coroner said caused Jackson’s death -- is a white liquid administered intravenously.


Sky News Correspondent : Murray's lawyer testing Alvarez, asking him to confirm whether it was dark in MJ's room - suggesting his observations may be inaccurate

lol idiots. yes it was pitch black. opps that means murray couldnt see what he was doing to mj either.it was that dark alberto didnt know what he picking up and does the dark effect your hearing so he misheard that murray asked him to hide things!!.
 
I think it was as stated before for the vial to not get contaminated.

So there was no missing second IV bag. What size was that vial? did they ask him that?

Did Alvarez say that VIAL was hooked to something or just hanging there? if it was just there with no attachment to any tubing, Chernoff can't claim MJ increased the IV drip and overdose himself. Back to syringe and bolus injections.
I dont think they even asked him that question...and alverez not knowing probably to much about anything medical..probably just was doing what Muray told him to do and he was trying to hurry and and clean up...UNLESS Murray already had that disconnected ...I dont know..I think it is the bolus injection to..but I guess we will have to wait and see what else comes out.
 
I dont think they even asked him that question...and alverez not knowing probably to much about anything medical..probably just was doing what Muray told him to do and he was trying to hurry and and clean up...UNLESS Murray already had that disconnected ...I dont know..I think it is the bolus injection to..but I guess we will have to wait and see what else comes out.

the pros have used the word infusion in their opening statements to tbh im still confused as to what story the pros will actually go with

kai chase on the stand now according to kop board
 
thats different to the direct quote from the below article.the milky stuff was in the bag not the bottle







lol idiots. yes it was pitch black. opps that means murray couldnt see what he was doing to mj either.it was that dark alberto didnt know what he picking up and does the dark effect your hearing so he misheard that murray asked him to hide things!!.
maybe the bottle leaked into the bag...and that was the white stuff Alberto saw in the bottom of the bag
 
the pros have used the word infusion in their opening statements to tbh im still confused as to what story the pros will actually go with

kai chase on the stand now according to kop board
Thank you Elisive...her testimony scares me..who knows what she will say.
 
Would also like to hear from someone who has medical experience, cause I never heard they would put vials into IV bags. Then again: Murray has done a lot of things that regular doctors would never do.
 
The relating of the testimony from the courtroom, and Ivy's updates are very much appreciated. I've read every word of this thread. At this point, I can say that it's all very horrific. What I am NOT understanding is, given all of Murray's missteps as recounted in the testimony we know of already, WHY the charges are so light? This seems like incredible negligence to me.

Anyone know what the legal possibility might be of upping the charges before the trial? And would it be a judge to decide, or what? If it's even possible?
 
Kai Chase on now, who know what'll see say? Can see her mentioning about the kids as she was with them when it all went down allegedly.

Then again: Murray has done a lot of things that regular doctors would never do.

Yeah, like not learn CPR.
 
They'll try anything to get murray off later and spread doubt: "was it dark" (implying the bodyguards couldn't see everything well, "did they touch the IV" (implying maybe someone else inserted the propofol...

Yes, this is how Chernoff builds defence. He believes that somebody else gave MJ propofol, not Dr. Murray. I hope the judge will not ask Chernoff to stop talking "conspiracy crap."lol
 
Oh goodness - now here's going to be a totally different perspective, from outside the room, with the kids. Don't know if I'm ready for this one...

Also, where is KOP getting their updates from? Do they have someone inside the court?
 
Anyone know what the legal possibility might be of upping the charges before the trial? And would it be a judge to decide, or what? If it's even possible
yeah the judge can decide after the prelim. if he feels murray should have xtra charges after seeing evidence of something during the prelim he can add/up the charges himself.
 
thats different to the direct quote from the below article.the milky stuff was in the bag not the bottle







lol idiots. yes it was pitch black. opps that means murray couldnt see what he was doing to mj either.it was that dark alberto didnt know what he picking up and does the dark effect your hearing so he misheard that murray asked him to hide things!!.

hahahahahah
 
Kai Chase on now, who know what'll see say? Can see her mentioning about the kids as she was with them when it all went down allegedly.



Yeah, like not learn CPR.


It could be argued that Murray knew CPR, but never used it in application before. For example, my brother had to take a CPR class before he started teaching. If something happened and he had to do CPR, I am not too sure how he will perform.

Murray, despite his focus, may had never had to use CPR before until that moment. We honestly only have the bodyguards' word that he appeared not to have known it based on tone.

Although, the CPR on the bed may render everything moot and the fact you don't do CPR on a person with a slight heartbeat.
 
AP has their story about Alberto Alvarez up . The different information is towards the very bottom.

Alberto Alvarez said he was the first security guard to reach Jackson's room after word came that something was wrong. He described a shocking scene.
The King of Pop was on his bed connected to an IV tube and a urinary catheter. His eyes and mouth were open, and Dr. Conrad Murray was leaning over him doing one-handed chest compressions to try to revive him.
Alvarez said he was "frozen" at the sight.
"I said, 'Dr. Murray, what happened?' And he said, 'He had a reaction. He had a bad reaction,'" Alvarez recalled.
The testimony came during a preliminary hearing to determine if Murray, the singer's personal physician, will be tried on a charge of involuntary manslaughter.
Authorities contend Murray gave Jackson a lethal dose of the powerful anesthetic propofol and other sedatives in the bedroom of his rented mansion before he died on June 25, 2009.
Deputy District Attorney David Walgren said in his opening statement that Jackson was already dead when Murray summoned help and tried to conceal his administering of propofol to the pop star, ordering the bodyguard to collect items before paramedics were called.
Murray was providing Jackson propofol roughly six times a week since being hired as the singer's personal physician in May 2009, as Jackson prepared for a series of comeback concerts, Walgren said.
On the witness stand, Alvarez recalled Jackson's children Paris and Prince walking into the room during the effort to revive their father.
"Paris screamed, 'Daddy!' and she started to cry. Dr. Murray said, 'Get them out. Don't let them see him like this,'" the bodyguard said.
Alvarez's voice choked as he described Paris crying and he took a moment to compose himself.
"I said, 'children, don't worry, we'll take care of this.' And I escorted them out and left the door ajar," Alvarez said.
In the courtroom audience, Jackson's mother, Katherine, dabbed at her eyes during the most detailed public account yet of events surrounding the death of her son. She came to court with her husband, Joe, and children Randy, Janet and LaToya. They made no eye contact with Murray across the courtroom.
They heard Alvarez testify that he helped Murray bag the medicine and saw an unidentified "white milky substance" in the bottom of an intravenous bag.
"He just grabbed a handful of bottles, or vials, and he instructed me to put them in a bag," Alvarez testified, adding Murray also told him to place an intravenous bag into another sack.
"Is it true that 911 had not been called yet?" Walgren asked.
"That's true," Alvarez replied.
After collecting everything and bagging it, Alvarez said, Murray told him to call 911. The prosecutor then played a recording of the call.
Alvarez was heard on the tape telling the 911 operator that Jackson's private doctor was there, and she responded that he would be "the higher authority."
When the operator said to transfer Jackson to the floor, Alvarez grabbed Jackson's legs and Murray grabbed his upper body. He said at that point he noticed the IV in Jackson's leg that had to be removed. Alvarez also saw that Jackson had the urinary catheter.
Alvarez said Murray then asked him to give Jackson chest compression, while Murray did mouth-to-mouth resuscitation.
Murray said, "'You know this is the first time I give mouth-to-mouth but I have to do it because he's my friend,'" Alvarez recalled.
"Did it appear he was breathing," Walgren asked.
"No sir," Alvarez said.
"His eyes and mouth were open?" the prosecutor asked.
"Yes," the witness said.
"Did he seem to be alive or dead?" Walgren asked.
"Dead, sir," Alvarez said.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/top/all/7367320.html
 
It could be argued that Murray knew CPR, but never used it in application before. For example, my brother had to take a CPR class before he started teaching. If something happened and he had to do CPR, I am not too sure how he will perform.

Murray, despite his focus, may had never had to use CPR before until that moment. We honestly only have the bodyguards' word that he appeared not to have known it based on tone.

Although, the CPR on the bed may render everything moot and the fact you don't do CPR on a person with a slight heartbeat.

yes if your brother knew it once he would not make such mistakes that murray made he may not do it all correct but not this bad as murray
 
question":

you got to sort of bags one you can put thinks in and one iv bag thats closed right so how can you put something in the ivbag? *besides fluids*
 
AP has their story about Alberto Alvarez up . The different information is towards the very bottom.

Alberto Alvarez said he was the first security guard to reach Jackson's room after word came that something was wrong. He described a shocking scene.
The King of Pop was on his bed connected to an IV tube and a urinary catheter. His eyes and mouth were open, and Dr. Conrad Murray was leaning over him doing one-handed chest compressions to try to revive him.
Alvarez said he was "frozen" at the sight.
"I said, 'Dr. Murray, what happened?' And he said, 'He had a reaction. He had a bad reaction,'" Alvarez recalled.
The testimony came during a preliminary hearing to determine if Murray, the singer's personal physician, will be tried on a charge of involuntary manslaughter.
Authorities contend Murray gave Jackson a lethal dose of the powerful anesthetic propofol and other sedatives in the bedroom of his rented mansion before he died on June 25, 2009.
Deputy District Attorney David Walgren said in his opening statement that Jackson was already dead when Murray summoned help and tried to conceal his administering of propofol to the pop star, ordering the bodyguard to collect items before paramedics were called.
Murray was providing Jackson propofol roughly six times a week since being hired as the singer's personal physician in May 2009, as Jackson prepared for a series of comeback concerts, Walgren said.
On the witness stand, Alvarez recalled Jackson's children Paris and Prince walking into the room during the effort to revive their father.
"Paris screamed, 'Daddy!' and she started to cry. Dr. Murray said, 'Get them out. Don't let them see him like this,'" the bodyguard said.
Alvarez's voice choked as he described Paris crying and he took a moment to compose himself.
"I said, 'children, don't worry, we'll take care of this.' And I escorted them out and left the door ajar," Alvarez said.
In the courtroom audience, Jackson's mother, Katherine, dabbed at her eyes during the most detailed public account yet of events surrounding the death of her son. She came to court with her husband, Joe, and children Randy, Janet and LaToya. They made no eye contact with Murray across the courtroom.
They heard Alvarez testify that he helped Murray bag the medicine and saw an unidentified "white milky substance" in the bottom of an intravenous bag.
"He just grabbed a handful of bottles, or vials, and he instructed me to put them in a bag," Alvarez testified, adding Murray also told him to place an intravenous bag into another sack.
"Is it true that 911 had not been called yet?" Walgren asked.
"That's true," Alvarez replied.
After collecting everything and bagging it, Alvarez said, Murray told him to call 911. The prosecutor then played a recording of the call.
Alvarez was heard on the tape telling the 911 operator that Jackson's private doctor was there, and she responded that he would be "the higher authority."
When the operator said to transfer Jackson to the floor, Alvarez grabbed Jackson's legs and Murray grabbed his upper body. He said at that point he noticed the IV in Jackson's leg that had to be removed. Alvarez also saw that Jackson had the urinary catheter.
Alvarez said Murray then asked him to give Jackson chest compression, while Murray did mouth-to-mouth resuscitation.
Murray said, "'You know this is the first time I give mouth-to-mouth but I have to do it because he's my friend,'" Alvarez recalled.
"Did it appear he was breathing," Walgren asked.
"No sir," Alvarez said.
"His eyes and mouth were open?" the prosecutor asked.
"Yes," the witness said.
"Did he seem to be alive or dead?" Walgren asked.
"Dead, sir," Alvarez said.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/top/all/7367320.html
so he put it in another bag..ok where did that bag go....?? the iv was in Michael's leg....I wonder if this is accurate testimony?
 
It could be argued that Murray knew CPR, but never used it in application before. For example, my brother had to take a CPR class before he started teaching. If something happened and he had to do CPR, I am not too sure how he will perform.

Murray, despite his focus, may had never had to use CPR before until that moment. We honestly only have the bodyguards' word that he appeared not to have known it based on tone.

Although, the CPR on the bed may render everything moot and the fact you don't do CPR on a person with a slight heartbeat.

However, there is a difference between your brother who took a CPR class, and a DOCTOR who was supposed to be a CARDIOLOGIST for SEVENTEEN YEARS and was based at the Acres Home HEART AND VASCULAR INSTITUTE in Houston Texas.
 
That last update.... totally heart breaking. It's terrible to read and to realize Michael had to undergo all this just to get some rest. That doctor... he is nothing but a cheap nothing :(
 
here a cardiologist have a education for at least 10 years, in those years you have to be a co doctor etc for many things from ER to IC ecpecially in the first 5 years...

so why would murray if he was such a long time card. dont know about a hard surfers the window of reviving a small one, and to give oxygen immidatly with cpr.. and not wait so long.. and call for help

oh and why did the bodygard need prince to go in the house if there was an emergency like murray called it.. and the bodygards prob now the house right? so is this strange?
 
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