Preliminary Hearing 6/1/11 Day Three. Discussion thread

I am torturing myself here but I just have to ask...if anyone knows. :(
I am sure that time of death can be determined almost correct, right ?
I don"t know any information of that concerning Michael.....:(
I mean, when you look at those TV shows...a coroner can say when someone died measuring the liver temperature.
Do we have a correct time of .....death ?
With that answer, everything would be much, much clearer.
Can somebody answer this, please ?

There was not a time of death issued. Because of so many factors, time of death has appraently been difficult to pinpoint exactly.

Someone else can clarify.
 
Sky News:

Martin Blount 2nd medic on scene: we went above and beyond to try to help the patient "it's not he's a celebrity, he's someones son"

That's what a lot of people seem to forget. He wasn't the just thw most famous person in the world. He was someone's son and a father to three children.
 
So now we have gone from asking everyone if they touched the equipment to asking people who know nothing about Michael if he was an addict. He has nothing else I see
 
Sky News:

Martin Blount 2nd medic on scene: we went above and beyond to try to help the patient "it's not he's a celebrity, he's someones son"

Blount: didn't observe a viable heart rythmn. Described Dr Murray as sweating...saw him put bottles into a bag

In my opinion, any POTENTIAL jury member is going to listen and feel a sort of "kindship" with the two emergency workers.

These two men have no vested interested in Michael, aside from trying to save his life. They appear to be honest, hardworking, everyday folks and I can DEFINITELY see the jury relating to them.
 
saw him put bottles into a bag
busted again

Martin Blount said when he walked into MJ's room Murray was sweating profusely. Blount says Murray told EMTs he waited only one minute before calling 911.

But another paramedic testified earlier he believed Murray waited between 20 minutes to an hour to call 911.
 
fans on the ustream are saying the court is on a break, so hopefully we'll have more updates soon
 
Is there only one Ustream? It's not really working for me, buffering every 5 seconds. Is it my comp or is that just how it is?
 
right now it's okay for me, but from time to time it stops for a sec and then resumes
 
LOS ANGELES (AP) — A paramedic sent to Michael Jackson's mansion says he saw the doctor charged in the singer's death scoop up three bottles of lidocaine from the floor and place the vials in a bag during efforts to revive the pop star.

Paramedic Martin Blount testified Thursday he was surprised to see the bottles because Dr. Conrad Murray had told paramedics he hadn't given Jackson any drugs.

He says Murray also produced a hypodermic needle at one point and wanted to use it on the singer. Blount says he and fellow paramedics refused.

He described Murray as frantic and sweating profusely.

The medic is the seventh witness called at a multi-day preliminary hearing after which a judge will determine whether there is enough evidence for Murray to stand trial for involuntary manslaughter.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-01-06/medic-says-doc-scooped-up-vials-in-jackson-bedroom.html
 
Both paramedics testmonies here are absolutly damning and they are a neutral party-they are relaying what they are and its absolutly scathing against Murray. This just stinks of cover up.
 
From Julia who's in the courtroom:

Not a lot new happening so far... But defense asked: Is it true that veins collapsing are signs of a drug addict. Prosecution didn't object. This caused an outburst in court by a fan who was told they would be held in contempt if it happened again.
 
JMie;3177900 said:
LOS ANGELES (AP) — A paramedic sent to Michael Jackson's mansion says he saw the doctor charged in the singer's death scoop up three bottles of lidocaine from the floor and place the vials in a bag during efforts to revive the pop star.

THIRD-PARTY VERIFICATION!

We now have a witness who was not on Michael's payroll, not a family member, nor a friend, who can confirm a portion of Alberto Alverez' testimony.

I wonder if the defense will ask this witness if the "room was dark." LOL!
 
From Julia who's in the courtroom:

Not a lot new happening so far... But defense asked: Is it true that veins collapsing are signs of a drug addict. Prosecution didn't object. This caused an outburst in court by a fan who was told they would be held in contempt if it happened again.

did Julia say what the witness reply? I think that if the prosecution didn't object, they are confident the witness will say that veins collapsing are the sign of a person dying not being a drug addict....

so now it's obvious the defence is going to take the addict path. we all know who we should thank for that. :(
 
By the way guys I asked a cardiologist about MJ's open eyes; he said it is not really unusual for patients to have open eyes under anaesthesia. Muscle relaxants play a role in that too. It happened with him many times. Open eyes was not an indication of terror or fear or anything. I want to know what Murray told the police investigators about that issue.
 
Trials and Tribulations is following Murray Prelim and they are taking detailed notes.They are also making updates from the court. They do not wish their full notes to be copied and posted so as soon as they post a update I'll go through and make a summary here. If you want to read their full posts you can visit Trials and Tribulationwebsite.

Senneff testimony continued today

- UCLA tells them to call MJ dead. Murray assumes control and does not make the call.

- Murray wants to insert a central line and give magnesium to MJ. Senneff says the EMT's are not trained in central lines and do not have magnesium at hand.

- At some point while EMT's are working on MJ someone in the room identifies him as Michael Jackson.

- When Murray says he heard a pulse on MJ's femoral artery (on the leg close to groin), Senneff checks the monitor. DA in cross examination ask if this can be a "false" pulse (pulse happens during CPR compressions).

- When they left the house a paparazzi puts a camera to the window of the ambulance and runs with the ambulance. Murray requests that they cover MJ's face with a towel. Paramedics find this as a reasonable request.

- Senneff says again they never heard a pulse and in his opinion MJ went down between 20 minutes and a hour prior their arrival.

Martin BLOUNT testimony

- Blount has 20 years experience, was the driver of the ambulance. He's the last of the paramedics in the room. He brings the gurney and other gear. He was by MJ's head.

- He inserts ET tube and gives air to MJ by pumping a hand pump. He sees an Oxygen tank and nasal canula (tubing that goes around the nose and connected to an Oxygen tank).

- Paramedics notice IV on MJ isn't working properly so they are looking for a new place to insert additional IV. They touch MJ's arms looking for a place and think that his body was "cool".

- Paramedics decide to stick the additional IV by the jugular, at that time they realize MJ's eyes were "blown" (fixed and dilated). Blount's opinion is that MJ was already dead.

- Blount says at one time Murray showed them an hypodermic needle 24 gage which he calls strange as Murray told them he didn't give MJ anything. Also he sees bottles on the floor and bottles of lidocaine. He also calls "condom catheter" presence as odd.

- Murray makes a phone call in the ambulance.

- In cross examination Murray's lawyers say that Blount actually told detectives that MJ's skin "not warm, not cool".

- Blount says one of the paramedics asked Murray if MJ was taking recreational drugs. Murray says no.

- Murray's defense mentions a paramedic tried 3 times to find a vein on MJ's arms and couldn't and asks if finding veins on drug addicts are hard? Blount gives an example of a known drug addict and being able to find a vein. Defense again asks if it could be difficult. Blount agrees.
 
For those with med background, why would Murray want to use a hyodermic needle and why would paramedics refuse this?

Erin on the ustream said that yesterday the first paramedic explained that they now use some equipment without needles for paramedics safety reasons, and Murray's equipment was more out-dated.
 
From Julia who's in the courtroom:

Not a lot new happening so far... But defense asked: Is it true that veins collapsing are signs of a drug addict. Prosecution didn't object. This caused an outburst in court by a fan who was told they would be held in contempt if it happened again.

I applaud that fan. :clap:
 
did Julia say what the witness reply? I think that if the prosecution didn't object, they are confident the witness will say that veins collapsing are the sign of a person dying not being a drug addict....

so now it's obvious the defence is going to take the addict path. we all know who we should thank for that. :(

Yes, that's going to be their defense. Its no suprise and some people have played right into it. Still, if DA felt this was true, wouldn't they have charged him with that also? If Michael had visible phsyical signs of being a drug addict (which I do not believe) shouldn't Murray have been able to determine a problem? I don't think no matter what they try and say that Murray can get out of this one.
 
did Julia say what the witness reply? I think that if the prosecution didn't object, they are confident the witness will say that veins collapsing are the sign of a person dying not being a drug addict....

so now it's obvious the defence is going to take the addict path. we all know who we should thank for that. :(

And I wonder what the fan said in court.
 
Murray's defense mentions a paramedic tried 3 times to find a vein on MJ's arms and couldn't and asks if finding veins on drug addicts are hard? Blount gives an example of a known drug addict and being able to find a vein. Defense again asks if it's difficult.
defence are arseholes. everythng that mj is suffering from is cause hes dead. yet according to the defence its cause hes a druggie. wankers muuray had no problem finding a vien on the drug addict for the previous 2 months
 
so even the EMT saw Murray scooping up bottles huh? and Murray told the EMTs that he didn't give MJ anything??

This is very very damning. I wonder how his attorneys responded to that? You have two EMTs saying that Murray lied to them and was scooping up bottles. Murray nor his defense can defend that
 
Paparazzi, fans hampered paramedics from getting stricken pop star to hospital

A paramedic who tried in vain to save Michael Jackson’s life testified Thursday that an unruly crowd of paparazzi and tourists outside the pop star’s home hampered efforts to get to the hospital.

“It’s a circus out there. It’s unbelievable,” recalled Los Angeles City Fire Department paramedic Richard Senneff of the scene outside Jackson’s Holmby Hills mansion June 25, 2009.

The witness testified on the second day of testimony at a hearing to determine whether there is enough evidence to try Dr. Conrad Murray for involuntary manslaughter. Senneff said that the ambulance driver had trouble navigating away from the residence because of a throng that included passengers of a tour bus and photographers with “big cameras, little cameras, video cameras, still cameras.”

At one point, a man with a video camera ran alongside the ambulance holding a camera with a large lens against the window. “It just seemed wrong,” he said. Under questioning by a defense lawyer, Senneff said Murray wanted to put a “central line” to restart Jackson’s heart, but that medics did not have equipment or training to do so. He said the singer did not respond to two rounds of drugs to revive him and hospital officials told him over the radio to “call” Jackson’s death, but that neither he nor Murray wanted to do so. “I said, 'Be advised, this is a very high-profile VIP,' ” Senneff said.

The 50-year-old singer was pronounced dead at UCLA Medical Center. Senneff said rescue workers had gone “above and beyond” the call of duty in the field not because Jackson was a celebrity, but “because it was someone’s son.” Katherine Jackson, the singer’s mother, listened intently in the courtroom gallery. Judge Michael Pastor also heard from a second paramedic who, like Senneff, said that Murray initially claimed he had not given his patient any medication.

Martin Blount said the denial struck him as odd because he saw a hypodermic needle and three bottles of lidocaine in the room. Murray, he said, “scooped up” the bottles and placed them in a bag before they left for the hospital. “Did you ever see those bottles again,” Deputy Dist. Atty. David Walgren asked. “No, sir,” Blount replied.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lan...rom-getting-stricken-pop-star-to-hospita.html
 
Yes, that's going to be their defense. Its no suprise and some people have played right into it. Still, if DA felt this was true, wouldn't they have charged him with that also? If Michael had visible phsyical signs of being a drug addict (which I do not believe) shouldn't Murray have been able to determine a problem? I don't think no matter what they try and say that Murray can get out of this one.

And we have to thank the Jackson family for the "drug addict" spread on TV.

*End of sarcasm.*
 
Paramedics decide to stick the additional IV by the jugular, at that time they realize MJ's eyes were "blown". Blount's opinion is that MJ was already dead.

What does this mean?
 
fixed and dilated like this
images
 
Just confirmed that the paramedics stuck the IV in the neck so all the confusion from yesterday is cleared up.
 
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