Preliminary Hearing 6/1/11 Day Three. Discussion thread

[chanel05]

By the way guys I asked a cardiologist about MJ's open eyes; he said it is not really unusual for patients to have open eyes under anaesthesia. Muscle relaxants play a role in that too. It happened with him many times. Open eyes was not an indication of terror or fear or anything. I want to know what Murray told the police investigators about that issue.

thats good 2 know

If someone's pupils are fixed and dilated, it means they are dead, because the eyes are not responding to light.

true.. when you are in light your pupils will contract(grow smaller) to not let so much light in. when it is dark they dilate so it can let more light in so you can see. when your pupils are fixed and dilated, it is because of what the poster said above. it also means that you have no brain function

I don't understand how Murray broke the needle in Michael's calf. If the EMT's were already giving him adrenaline that means it was already an IV. If I'm not mistaken, once an IV is started the needle is gone, in favor of a small plastic tube attached to the IV mechanism. Therefore, how can a needle break when it isn't there in the first place? Does he mean that Michael's vein got blown, rendering the IV useless?

when an iv is placed there is still a needle stuck in your arm. the tubing is attached to the end of the needle. the needled is usually under the skin inserted into a vein.

guys refresh my memory: what is lidocaine and is it significant (other than Murray collecting them)?

lidocaine was used with the propofol so it wouldnt burn as it was entering.

 

[Jessylex]

Licodaine is given with propofol to ease the buring feeling common local anesthetic drug



Stages of anaesthesia

Stage 1 anaesthesia, also known as the "induction", is the period between the initial administration of the induction agents and loss of consciousness. During this stage, the patient progresses from analgesia without amnesia to analgesia with amnesia. Patients can carry on a conversation at this time.

Stage 2 anaesthesia, also known as the "excitement stage", is the period following loss of consciousness and marked by excited and delirious activity. During this stage, respirations and heart rate may become irregular. In addition, there may be uncontrolled movements, vomiting, breath holding, and pupillary dilation. Since the combination of spastic movements, vomiting, and irregular respirations may lead to airway compromise, rapidly acting drugs are used to minimize time in this stage and reach stage 3 as fast as possible.

Stage 3, "surgical anaesthesia". During this stage, the skeletal muscles relax, and the patient's breathing becomes regular. Eye movements slow, then stop, and surgery can begin.

It has been divided into 4 planes:

eyes initially rolling, then becoming fixed.

loss of corneal and laryngeal reflexes.

pupils dilate and loss of light reflex.

intercostal paralysis, shallow abdominal respiration, dilated pupils

Stage 4 anaesthesia, also known as "overdose", is the stage where too much medication has been given relative to the amount of surgical stimulation and the patient has severe brain stem or medullary depression. This results in a cessation of respiration and potential cardiovascular collapse. This stage is lethal without cardiovascular and respiratory support.


This had no idea he was under propofol's influence .

These stages of anaesthesia could be seen hile using ethar, old inhalational anaesthetic. Not in use for decades now. With Propofol induction is quick and smooth, no stages, and no dilated pupils. Here, trust me, dilated pupils were result of hypoxic brain injury and death.

 

[MJStorm]

What are you talking about? That was not directed at you. That is why your post is still there. That was for someone else.

I know. I said that in MY OPINION, you overreacted. I would answer the question of the member about Karen and the post disappeared. Well, back to topic.

 

[Ohood]

^ thanks Soundmind !

^thanks Ivy !

 

[ginvid]

i'm really so sorry , but i wanted to understand how and why these info came from Chernoff!

but since you removed the post it is clear that i just told the truth !

Nothin is clear but that you are off topic. If you read the first three posts of this thread, we told that we would not allow any conspiracies in this thread. And we would enforce that.

Asking how Chernoff came to a conclusion is different from saying as a fact that "Karen told Chernoff the drug stories and she was against MJ and his work". How does that contribute to factual conversation?

Discussing Karen in the context of what was mentioned about her in the prelim of course is fine, but please don't use this thread as a means of letting out steam at what you think she may have done.

Thank you.

I know. I said that in MY OPINION, you overreacted. I would answer the question of the member about Karen and the post disappeared. Well, back to topic.

Yes, do that. That is all we are asking.

 

[Ohood]

Is the hearing for today is over ?

 

[elusive moonwalker]

no theres over 4 hrs left if it goes the full length

 

[Sophielo]

Is the hearing for today is over ?

Nope, not over yet. Updates are slower now as the judge has gotten stricter about info leaking. He obviously knows info is leaking all over the place.

 

[ivy]

Little additional info about Blount's testimony

Blount said he thinks Jackson may have been dead for at least 20 minutes before he and other emergency personnel arrived.

Murray's defense attorney, Joseph Low IV, did not ask Blount about the bottles (3 bottles of lidocaine) on cross-examination.

Blount said Murray told paramedics that Jackson had passed out about a minute before 911 was called. However, Blount's partner, paramedic Richard Senneff, previously testified that Jackson's hands and feet were turning blue by the time he arrived.

Senneff testified Wednesday that Murray never mentioned that he had given Jackson propofol, and that he saw no signs in the room of propofol or other sedatives that were later found in Jackson's body.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...JuQQwA?docId=a183adb79cf749a49b3617f6cbcce158

 

[ivy]

Nope, not over yet. Updates are slower now as the judge has gotten stricter about info leaking. He obviously knows info is leaking all over the place.

True - updates only come during breaks. and lunch break should be coming up soon.

However I believe we got more detailed updates this time.

 

[MJStorm]

Does anyone know what the fan said (or screamed) in court?

 

[Asedora]

Nothin is clear but that you are off topic. If you read the first three posts of this thread, we told that we would not allow any conspiracies in this thread. And we would enforce that.

Asking how Chernoff came to a conclusion is different from saying as a fact that "Karen told Chernoff the drug stories and she was against MJ and his work". How does that contribute to factual conversation?

Discussing Karen in the context of what was mentioned about her in the prelim of course is fine, but please don't use this thread as a means of letting out steam at what you think she may have done.

Thank you.

Thank you :huggy: Some people seem to be obsessed with KF. :smilerolleyes:

 

[AnnieRUOkay89]

thats good 2 know



true.. when you are in light your pupils will contract(grow smaller) to not let so much light in. when it is dark they dilate so it can let more light in so you can see. when your pupils are fixed and dilated, it is because of what the poster said above. it also means that you have no brain function



when an iv is placed there is still a needle stuck in your arm. the tubing is attached to the end of the needle. the needled is usually under the skin inserted into a vein.

As a long-time patient, I don't think so, I'm not sure, but as a patient, I've never had the needle in my arm after the initial drawing of blood. Butterfly needles you can see where they remove the needle once it's inside a vein, but those are mostly for children and those who don't have good veins, people like me. Hypodermic needles also have the needle removed once in a vein in favor of an IV. It's like that for hospital stays anyway, if Michael was being put under for long periods of time, one would think the needle would be removed.

 

[ivy]

TMZ

Phone Company -- Murray Called Everyone BUT 911

Two reps from the phone company testified in the hours surrounding the revelation that Michael Jackson was lifeless in bed, Murray was texting and calling lots of people, but never called 911.

The records show Murray was sending and receiving multiple texts. Two particularly interesting ones at 12:03 and 12:04 PM ... the person Murray was texting was in Texas.

It's unclear if the texts had anything to do with the two woman in Murray's office who went to a storage facility to retrieve boxes.

Murray also called a number of people, including his girlfriend, Nicole Alvarez, but the only record shows 1:08 PM. This is inconsistent with what law enforcement tells TMZ -- that he was on the phone with Alvarez just after 12 noon and when Murray realized MJ was in distress he dropped the phone.

 

[ScrEAm.Jack5on]

Who else is testifying today after this paramedic?

 

[chanel05]

As a long-time patient, I don't think so, I'm not sure, but as a patient, I've never had the needle in my arm after the initial drawing of blood. Butterfly needles you can see where they remove the needle once it's inside a vein, but those are mostly for children and those who don't have good veins, people like me. Hypodermic needles also have the needle removed once in a vein in favor of an IV. It's like that for hospital stays anyway, if Michael was being put under for long periods of time, one would think the needle would be removed.

yea maybe.... but probably not knowing muarry

 

[ivy]

^^ apparently phone company representatives according to TMZ

 

[JMie]

wow, I didn't expect them to call phone company to the witness stand. that's good.

 

[Ohood]

why non of the paramedics said No , Not True when Murrray defense come up with ..these drug addict lies like blue hands smalll veins and hair net...why no one said NO simple and plain...or is this becuase they did not expect these questions !

 

[xthunderx2]

@JMie She didn't say and had to go back inside the court because it was starting up they only got a 12 minute break. They also went into great detail again about the EMT's first reaction. He didn't realise it was MJ until Murray said it was, he thought it was a much older person who was dying and should have been in a hospice because he was so pale and thin with home medical supplies... The defense went to town on this saying this is what drug users are like...

And Im sure this was reported already, but the leg IV murray had in Michael, the EMT's used to give Michael the adrenaline-like drugs to try start his heart again, Murray tried to "help" and broke the IV needle in Michael's calf... The EMT's searched Michael's arms frantically and couldn't find a vein (because with no blood in them as lividity was setting in they'd be impossibly hard to find) they finally decided to use Michael jugular vein, hence the IV went through Michael's neck.

Michael was wearing a shower cap on his head as his detachable extensions were off.

Julia will call again during lunch break...

Murray did his damnedest to the very end to keep Michael from being revived....right up to the point of breaking the needle off in Michael's calf so that the EMT couldn't administer heart meds.. and he did it right in from of emt's..that takes nerve.

 

[ivy]

Trials and Tribulations update

There were two witnesses that introduced phone records. It was rapid fire information and I missed quite a bit of it. I will probably summarize it since it was just to introduce the phone calls and text messages records. The actual content of those phone calls and text messages will come later. The most interesting thing is to see "when" Dr. Murray was on the phone and how long those phone calls and messages lasted. And, Dr. Murray had two phones. An iPhone and a Sprint-Nextel phone registered to him. And it appears he was actively using both phones for text and calls all through the morning of June 25th.

 

[Justthefacts]

TMZ

Phone Company -- Murray Called Everyone BUT 911

Two reps from the phone company testified in the hours surrounding the revelation that Michael Jackson was lifeless in bed, Murray was texting and calling lots of people, but never called 911.

The records show Murray was sending and receiving multiple texts. Two particularly interesting ones at 12:03 and 12:04 PM ... the person Murray was texting was in Texas.

It's unclear if the texts had anything to do with the two woman in Murray's office who went to a storage facility to retrieve boxes.

Murray also called a number of people, including his girlfriend, Nicole Alvarez, but the only record shows 1:08 PM. This is inconsistent with what law enforcement tells TMZ -- that he was on the phone with Alvarez just after 12 noon and when Murray realized MJ was in distress he dropped the phone.

How about you were just wrong Levin? Nut head

 

[ivy]

The court is at lunch break.

and apparently after the break the phone company testimony will continue with more details of phone calls and texts. ?

 

[ScrEAm.Jack5on]

^^ apparently phone company representatives according to TMZ

Trials and Tribulations update

There were two witnesses that introduced phone records. It was rapid fire information and I missed quite a bit of it. I will probably summarize it since it was just to introduce the phone calls and text messages records. The actual content of those phone calls and text messages will come later. The most interesting thing is to see "when" Dr. Murray was on the phone and how long those phone calls and messages lasted. And, Dr. Murray had two phones. An iPhone and a Sprint-Nextel phone registered to him. And it appears he was actively using both phones for text and calls all through the morning of June 25th.

Thanks.

Anyone else?

Murray's girlfriend is in court today or tomorrow?

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Murray also called a number of people, including his girlfriend, Nicole Alvarez, but the only record shows 1:08 PM. This is inconsistent with what law enforcement tells TMZ -- that he was on the phone with Alvarez just after 12 noon and when Murray realized MJ was in distress he dropped the phone.

so thats who murray called in the ambulance. but who was he talking to just after noon. that was someone in houston

yes girlfriend tomorrow

The records show Murray was sending and receiving multiple texts. Two particularly interesting ones at 12:03 and 12:04 PM ... the person Murray was texting was in Texas.

so this was after he found mj presuming the below is correct that ive had saved for ages.the person who he was on the phone tried to ring murray back after he dropped the phone. dont tell me murray found the time to send 2 text messages telling the person that oh yeah mj is dead im gonna do cpr in a minute when ive finished texting you

at 11:51am he phoned somebody in Houston for 11 minutes.

at 12:05 pm he called MJ's assistant.

 

[Asedora]

TMZ

Phone Company -- Murray Called Everyone BUT 911

Two reps from the phone company testified in the hours surrounding the revelation that Michael Jackson was lifeless in bed, Murray was texting and calling lots of people, but never called 911.

The records show Murray was sending and receiving multiple texts. Two particularly interesting ones at 12:03 and 12:04 PM ... the person Murray was texting was in Texas.

It's unclear if the texts had anything to do with the two woman in Murray's office who went to a storage facility to retrieve boxes.

Murray also called a number of people, including his girlfriend, Nicole Alvarez, but the only record shows 1:08 PM. This is inconsistent with what law enforcement tells TMZ -- that he was on the phone with Alvarez just after 12 noon and when Murray realized MJ was in distress he dropped the phone.

The next thing is what Chernoff is going to say regarding these phone calls is that Murray was not aware that Michael was in danger.

 

[ivy]

Thanks.

Anyone else?

Murray's girlfriend is in court today or tomorrow?

she was told to come back on Friday.

 

[PrincessMichaela]

It a local anesthetic used to numb an area of the body. (I know I was given it when I had dental work done).

I think someone said that propofol burns going through the skin so lidocane is used to numb the area so the burning is not felt.

Please someone correct me if wrong.

Murray said he did not give MJ anything and the medic questioned that when he saw the lidocane vials, because why else would he need them if he was not giving MJ anything.

Correct.

Lidocaine is used topically to relieve itching, burning and pain from skin inflammations, injected as a dental anesthetic or as a local anesthetic for minor surgery.

I'm prone to sunburns and one time got burnt really badly and was put on Prednisone cream and a prescription gel with aloe and lidocaine and stuff.

Interestingly, though, it is also considered an Antiarrhythmic agent

Uses:
Treatment and prevention during and immediately after myocardial infarction, though this practice is now discouraged given the increased risk of asystole

• ventricular tachycardia
• atrial fibrillation

This may be something worth looking into...in another thread, that is.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

The next thing is what Chernoff is going to say regarding these phone calls is that Murray was not aware that Michael was in danger.

hardly. thats admitting his guilt:doh:

 

[Ohood]

so thats who murray called in the ambulance. but who was he talking to just after noon. that was someone in houston

yes girlfriend tomorrow

so this was after he found mj presuming the below is correct that ive had saved for ages.the person who he was on the phone tried to ring murray back after he dropped the phone. dont tell me murray found the time to send 2 text messages telling the person that oh yeah mj is dead im gonna do cpr in a minute when ive finished texting you

I rememebr that he has two clinics one in Houston !