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Rethinking Invincible

BadTour87 said:
its not ironic at all. me and others mention the people we talk about by name, we don't subpost.
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Yes, but you do it completely off site and wouldn't dare say a thing on here about it to the people whom you are talking about.
How quaint.

SmoothGangsta said:
If you act a certain way I'm going to say it. Posting that patronising, rolling laughing face, saying you'd like to "expose" people, subposting about people then being surprised when they respond and "spilling tea" are all very mature and productive ways to have debates and discussions, yes.
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Likewise, if you act a certain way I'm going to say it.
I wasn't at all suprised you responded.
In fact I figured that as soon as y'all saw I had posted that y'all all would run in here at break neck speed irregardless of what I had said.
And I suppose that all y'all do on that other website is have "productive discussions."
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Anywho, I'm done.
If anyone is still pressed enough to quote or respond to me just know that you won't get a response, and unlike others on here when I say I'm done I'm actually done.

Just know that I know what all of you are really like, and if some of the other people here did too then they wouldn't be so keen to agree with y'all.
 
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sigh I honestly like this place but it's so hard to continue being here sometimes.
 
Pink Diamond Princess said:
Yes, but you do it completely off site and wouldn't dare say a thing on here about it to the people whom you are talking about.
How quaint.


Likewise, if you act a certain way I'm going to say it.
I wasn't at all suprised you responded.
In fact I figured that as soon as y'all saw I had posted that y'all all would run in here at break neck speed irregardless of what I had said.
And I suppose that all y'all do on that other website is have "productive discussions."
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Anywho, I'm done.
If anyone is still pressed enough to quote or respond to me just know that you won't get a response, and unlike others on here when I say I'm done I'm actually done.

Just know that I know what all of you are really like, and if some of the other people here did too then they wouldn't be so keen to agree with y'all.
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Yes, I did used to talk about this site a lot over on that other site. Stopped doing that once I had a conversation with someone here about stuff I'd said and realised I was a bit of an ass, and that it was best to stay out of it. There's a reason this site is discussed a lot over there and not on this site itself, and I'm responding to one of them. Just thought I'd explain that seeing as you like to keep mentioning it. Anyway. That's all.
 
SmoothGangsta said:
Yes, I did used to talk about this site a lot over on that other site. Stopped doing that once I had a conversation with someone here about stuff I'd said and realised I was a bit of an ass, and that it was best to stay out of it. There's a reason this site is discussed a lot over there and not on this site itself, and I'm responding to one of them. Just thought I'd explain that seeing as you like to keep mentioning it. Anyway. That's all.
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Although I don't agree with such behaviour, I respect that you've explained that and taken responsibility for realising it's not very pleasant for a fan to be spoken about like that. Words speak volumes of a persons character and this is a nice olive branch. Fair play.
 
I have just checked and, yep this site is still called 'mjjCOMMUNITY.

Looking at that title in detail, I expect people will come on here with a like minded approach to all things Michael Jackson. Does that mean everybody thinks MJ is perfect? I would say no. Does it mean that people will stand up and applaud others for coming on here and pointing out his imperfections and frailties. Not on your life.

For example. I have two children. Are they perfect? Probably not. Do I want people coming into my house and pointing it out to me, sometimes repeatedly on the same points? Absolutely not.

Why do some of you feel upset that people might get offended when you point out MJ's fallibilities? On a site that will obviously attract many that consider him part of their family?

As I said before, I personally don't have a problem with someone pointing out what they consider to be a salient point, even if it's perceived to be 'negative' towards MJ. But I don't understand the persistent pushing of that negative point until all bow before it.

Take the case in point;

Brad, a nice man in my view, claims, after Michael's death, that he is the brains behind SIM. Michael had little, if anything, to do with it.

What do we have?

Absolute proof that MJ didn't create SIM? Not really. A doubt towards who did what on SIM? Probably.

So why isn't it left at that? Instead we have "well Brad's a nice guy. Why would he lie?". On the flip side of that statement must be, " Well Michael is not so nice (often backed up with previous 'evidence' of Michael's 'dodgy' behaviour), and can not be trusted to tell the truth."

And certain posters wonder why they are challenged?

Do me a favour.

I know the people I love and respect are not perfect. But don't come into my house, tell me that to my face, and expect me to pat you on the back and say "thanks".
 
^^Personally, I don't have a problem with people discussing the "bad". Bottrell saying he could get angry in the studio didn't bother me. Who doesn't get angry? Buxer's story does. People have also implied that these weren't isolated incidents of taking credit, but go all the way back to the beginning of his songwriting career.
For example I had the best mother in the world. She loved us fiercely with the most unconditional love I've ever seen in anyone. I can tell hundreds of stories about how she made sure we had perfect childhoods against adverse circumstances. She also had multiple nervous breakdowns and did some crazy things. But I tell the SAME stories -good and bad-about her before and after she died.
 
barbee0715 said:
^^Personally, I don't have a problem with people discussing the "bad". Bottrell saying he could get angry in the studio didn't bother me. Who doesn't get angry? Buxer's story does. People have also implied that these weren't isolated incidents of taking credit, but go all the way back to the beginning of his songwriting career.
For example I had the best mother in the world. She loved us fiercely with the most unconditional love I've ever seen in anyone. I can tell hundreds of stories about how she made sure we had perfect childhoods against adverse circumstances. She also had multiple nervous breakdowns and did some crazy things. But I tell the SAME stories -good and bad-about her before and after she died.
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What did Bill Bottrell say about Michael in the studio?
 
^^ Bottrell said that Michael was "angry and abusive" during the 1997 sessions for Blood on the Dance Floor and that he would forever regret leaving him in that manner (those sessions being the last time they collaborated).

barbee0715 said:
^^Personally, I don't have a problem with people discussing the "bad". Bottrell saying he could get angry in the studio didn't bother me. Who doesn't get angry? Buxer's story does. People have also implied that these weren't isolated incidents of taking credit, but go all the way back to the beginning of his songwriting career.
For example I had the best mother in the world. She loved us fiercely with the most unconditional love I've ever seen in anyone. I can tell hundreds of stories about how she made sure we had perfect childhoods against adverse circumstances. She also had multiple nervous breakdowns and did some crazy things. But I tell the SAME stories -good and bad-about her before and after she died.
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Buxer has never struck me as someone who's out to get money or attention. He hasn't gone to the media proclaiming, "I cowrote a Michael Jackson song and wasn't given credit!" nor is he suing the Estate/Sony - that would raise some red flags.

He only began speaking to the community following Michael's passing; beforehand I can find two or three interviews.

The SIM credit situation is the only semi-controversial thing he has said about Michael in six years; everything else is strictly respectful.

I acknowledge where some people would be hesitant to believe this, but for me, nothing seems immensely suspicious.

There are incidents from as early as 1979 where song credits were questionable. It isn't a frequent case but it certainly is something that deserves to be discussed. Just because people are only coming forward now does not invalidate the claim/s; their behavior prior to the claim/s does.
 
barbee0715 said:
^^Personally, I don't have a problem with people discussing the "bad".
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I concur.
I also have zero problem with people discussing the bad as long as the discussion doesn't turn into an echo chamber of negativity, but what I don't like is when something goes beyond the realm of discussion and turns into a negative opinion being propagated as truth, and Michael being bashed due to information that no one who is part of the discussion knows to be 100% factual or true in any way (something that I see happen all to often).
You see, with Michael people way more often then not make a mountain out of a mole hill so to speak.
For example, what is being discussed here could turn into a nasty rumor that Michael didn't write a single one of his own songs and was a musical kleptomaniac.

People also make up negative stories about Michael quite often, so I'm very critical of anything negative said about Michael especially posthumously since the man is no longer here to denounce or concur with things himself.
Michael was always an easy target to say untrue negative things about, but now that he's gone he's an even easier target.
 
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Pink Diamond Princess said:
I concur.
I also have zero problem with people discussing the bad as long as the discussion doesn't turn into an echo chamber of negativity, but what I don't like is when something goes beyond the realm of discussion and turns into a negative opinion being propagated as truth, and Michael being bashed due to information that no one who is part of the discussion knows to be 100% factual or true in any way (something that I see happen all to often).
You see, with Michael people way more often then not make a mountain out of a mole hill so to speak.
For example, what is being discussed here could turn into a nasty rumor that Michael didn't write a single one of his own songs and was a musical kleptomaniac.

People also make up negative stories about Michael quite often, so I'm very critical of anything negative said about Michael especially posthumously since the man is no longer here to denounce or concur with things himself.
Michael was always an easy target to say untrue negative things about, but now that he's gone he's an even easier target.
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I totally get where your coming from with this point PDP. In life MJ was always under a constant microscope. Even in instances such as the lyrics of TDCAU being claimed to be ant-semetic, I feel it was a deliberate castigation on him. I know we live in different times but Kanye, Niki Minage and anyone nowadays can say whatever they want. I don't agree with Mike on the baby dangling incident but they never let it go, re-ran it, slowed it down, played it backwards etc. It's like 'We get it! He made a mistake. In this day and age people build careers on making mistakes.

I have no problem with pointing out mistakes and flaws either when its within context of the conversation and adds to the conversation and its in a fair and constructive way. But let's not be hell bent on constant needless critiscisim. That comes across as bitterness.
 
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aazzaabb said:
I totally get where your coming from with this point PDP. In life MJ was always under a constant microscope. Even in instances such as the lyrics of TDCAU being claimed to be ant-semetic, I feel it was a deliberate castigation on him. I know we live in different times but Kanye, Niki Minage and anyone nowadays can say whatever they want. I don't agree with Mike on the baby dangling incident but they never let it go, re-ran it, slowed it down, played it backwards etc. It's like 'We get it! He made a mistake. In this day and age people build careers on making mistakes.

I have no problem with pointing out mistakes and flaws either when its within context of the conversation and adds to the conversation and its in a fair and constructive way. But let's not be hell bent on constant needless critiscisim. That comes across as bitterness.
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Glad you see where I'm coming from. :)
And I agree, many celebs do things now that Michael would have been public enemy #1 for doing.
 
****ing hate threads like this, I don't want to know stuff like what's on here. I hate the thought of these song writing arguments & spurious credits.

Talk about taking the magic away.
 
^ The magic is still very much there. The only difference is that it wasn't just him who supplied it.

We shouldn't shy away from negative/controversial discussions like this. Regardless of where everyone stands at the end of it, intriguing information almost always comes from it.
 
AlwaysThere said:
^ The magic is still very much there. The only difference is that it wasn't just him who supplied it.

We shouldn't shy away from negative/controversial discussions like this. Regardless of where everyone stands at the end of it, intriguing information almost always comes from it.
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I love a contraversial topic also, but I love the romanticism of MJ writing many of these songs himself, especially heartfelt autobiographical ones like SIM. I don't want to know this may not be the case.

It's like when I first heard the GITM demo and realised the final version was a blend of two parts shunted together. It broke my picture of MJ delivering it all in one magical swooping delivery.
 
Tony R said:
I love a contraversial topic also, but I love the romanticism of MJ writing many of these songs himself, especially heartfelt autobiographical ones like SIM. I don't want to know this may not be the case.
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But shouldn't we separate reality from desire out of pure fairness?

The lyrics to Stranger in Moscow were undoubtedly and undeniably a product of Michael Jackson. The music? That's where the lines are blurred, depending on who you want to believe. Every bit of romanticism is still present, but it's spread out between two.
 
AlwaysThere said:
But shouldn't we separate reality from desire out of pure fairness?

The lyrics to Stranger in Moscow were undoubtedly and undeniably a product of Michael Jackson. The music? That's where the lines are blurred, depending on who you want to believe. Every bit of romanticism is still present, but it's spread out between two.
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I agree with this, having this type of attitude often leads to denying facts in order to keep your own narrative intact.
 
"controversial" subjects are simply fun... With Mike gone we are no longer coming to the forum wondering what he is up to and trying to see the 'latest'.. Simply we convo about him now... With less current events to talk about, we spend our time analyzing old times.. Why not? What else? wanna make another set list for the millionth time/play This Or That" for another decade? lol..


OR talk about the things we all think of but never have the chance to with fellow MJ fans, away from that defensive place we tend to find ourselves with haters or general public?
 
^ you're right, but much like the thought of my parents having sex, there's just some things I'd rather turn a blind eye to.
 
Does anyone else remember when this used to be an Invincible thread? Good times. I get nostalgic just thinking about it
 
analogue said:
Does anyone else remember when this used to be an Invincible thread? Good times. I get nostalgic just thinking about it
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Maybe we should start another? It's been a couple of weeks.
 
Tony R said:
^ you're right, but much like the thought of my parents having sex, there's just some things I'd rather turn a blind eye to.
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I remember when a fan pointed out to me that the Another Part Of Me video was edited from 4 or 5 different shows lol. My romanticism was completey shattered! :lol: Now when I look at it its so obvious; I mean the black mic! Still brilliant though. :cool:
 
aazzaabb said:
I remember when a fan pointed out to me that the Another Part Of Me video was edited from 4 or 5 different shows lol. My romanticism was completey shattered! :lol: Now when I look at it its so obvious; I mean the black mic! Still brilliant though. :cool:
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I didn't realize that. I need to go back and watch it. I don't think it would ruin it for me though-it's just too darn good and the epitome of everything Michael was as a performer.
 
barbee0715 said:
I didn't realize that. I need to go back and watch it. I don't think it would ruin it for me though-it's just too darn good and the epitome of everything Michael was as a performer.
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It's just sooo good. It has it all, the spins, the pout, the spontaneous energy, the band bopping along, the breakdown at the end. It's everything that was special about the Bad tour. Shamone!!
 
APOM on stage: A burst out of pure joy and love!

I love the song and the performance so much :dancin:
 
moonstruck87 said:
APOM on stage: A burst out of pure joy and love!

I love the song and the performance so much :dancin:
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Yeah, in many ways, APOM live is better than Billie Jean, Dangerous and all the bif choreographed routines.

I just love the freedom, style & exhuberance of it all. And the vocal is great.
 
I remember this thread!:bugeyed
My last post in here is probably from way back when I barely had any pos reps and my received thanks weren't even in the thousands.:boohoo
It was lit AF.:lol:
Good times.-_-
 
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