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Justthefacts
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Re: Had another tall with a medical worker
Yes Propofol is all over the body the heart the kidneys liver but Lorazepam which was a factor in his death is just in his femur and his heart. Now if what we think happend is true there is no way he can say Michael did it himself because of the Lorzenpam. It is called the the synergistic effect
Yes Propofol is all over the body the heart the kidneys liver but Lorazepam which was a factor in his death is just in his femur and his heart. Now if what we think happend is true there is no way he can say Michael did it himself because of the Lorzenpam. It is called the the synergistic effect
bouee
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Re: Had another tall with a medical worker
That's interesting. I don't remember seeing that in the coroner's thread, maybe it should be asked in that thread, just in case someone here with medical knowledge can answer that.
In the coroner's thread, I remember asking several times if it was possible to check what Murray told the Lapd with the tox report.
Murray admitted to giving all the drugs, my question at that time was if it was possible to check the times and doses he indicated.
I didn't get any answers, other posters with medical knowledge said they were not able to answer because it goes beyond what they could honestly say : legal medecine is different from regular medecine, and each medecine will "react" in a different way in the body.
Ginvid are you sure Murray said he gave propofol twice ?? I don't remember seeing that in the search warrants (maybe I don't remember well, if I have the time, I'll try to check and read them again this week end), or is it something that his lawyers said ???
You see, Murray's lawyers have changed their stories many times, I have stopped paying attention to them, they seem to adapt what they say as they get evidence from the DA. I remember at the beginning they said Murray had found Michael unresponsive at 12, when the serach warrants came out and it said it was 11, then Chernoff said that the 11am story is "police theory", the lastest I heard from one of Murray's lawyers (I'm not sure if it was Chernoff), the story had changed again, and it was "My client made a mistake when he talked to the police. He went to the bathroom twice, first time at 11, second time at 12, and Murray found Michael unresponsive at 12".
Mistake ???? the interview with the LAPD lasted more than 3 hours, and, if I remember correctly, Murray showed up for the interview with lawyers !!!!!
That's interesting. I don't remember seeing that in the coroner's thread, maybe it should be asked in that thread, just in case someone here with medical knowledge can answer that.
In the coroner's thread, I remember asking several times if it was possible to check what Murray told the Lapd with the tox report.
Murray admitted to giving all the drugs, my question at that time was if it was possible to check the times and doses he indicated.
I didn't get any answers, other posters with medical knowledge said they were not able to answer because it goes beyond what they could honestly say : legal medecine is different from regular medecine, and each medecine will "react" in a different way in the body.
Ginvid are you sure Murray said he gave propofol twice ?? I don't remember seeing that in the search warrants (maybe I don't remember well, if I have the time, I'll try to check and read them again this week end), or is it something that his lawyers said ???
You see, Murray's lawyers have changed their stories many times, I have stopped paying attention to them, they seem to adapt what they say as they get evidence from the DA. I remember at the beginning they said Murray had found Michael unresponsive at 12, when the serach warrants came out and it said it was 11, then Chernoff said that the 11am story is "police theory", the lastest I heard from one of Murray's lawyers (I'm not sure if it was Chernoff), the story had changed again, and it was "My client made a mistake when he talked to the police. He went to the bathroom twice, first time at 11, second time at 12, and Murray found Michael unresponsive at 12".
Mistake ???? the interview with the LAPD lasted more than 3 hours, and, if I remember correctly, Murray showed up for the interview with lawyers !!!!!
bouee
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Re: Had another tall with a medical worker
Yes it could be that, OR it could be that lorazepam dissipates more quickly in some places than others : you find it in some places, but the fact that you don't find it in other parts of the body doesn't necessarily means that it was not there.
Now that you say that, it brings back to my mind that some posters in the coroner's thread thought that it was possible that some of the propofol (possibly other medication too I don't remember well) was injected after Michael was gone, or when he was already in trouble.
One of the reason for them to think that was the tox report, and another reason was the fact that there was propofol left in the same tube as flumazenil. Flumazenil is an antidote to benzodiazepine, so it would have been injected to reverse the effects of propofol / benzodiazepine, to try to help Michael.
According to Beachlover, the tube should have been cleaned before the flumazenil was injected, or flumazenil should have been injected through another tube or in another way : there was still propofol in the tube, so the flumazenil actually pushed more propofol into Michael's system, when the goal was to stop the effects of propofol.
That's all I remember for now, if I can, I'll try to go back to the coroner's thread and find those posts again, I think the tox report question was raised by Soundmind.
I hope I am clear and not too "tough" with the details, English is not my first language so it's not always easy to find the right words in such a sore subject. I'm sorry if I hurt some of you, that was definitely not intended.
Yes it could be that, OR it could be that lorazepam dissipates more quickly in some places than others : you find it in some places, but the fact that you don't find it in other parts of the body doesn't necessarily means that it was not there.
Now that you say that, it brings back to my mind that some posters in the coroner's thread thought that it was possible that some of the propofol (possibly other medication too I don't remember well) was injected after Michael was gone, or when he was already in trouble.
One of the reason for them to think that was the tox report, and another reason was the fact that there was propofol left in the same tube as flumazenil. Flumazenil is an antidote to benzodiazepine, so it would have been injected to reverse the effects of propofol / benzodiazepine, to try to help Michael.
According to Beachlover, the tube should have been cleaned before the flumazenil was injected, or flumazenil should have been injected through another tube or in another way : there was still propofol in the tube, so the flumazenil actually pushed more propofol into Michael's system, when the goal was to stop the effects of propofol.
That's all I remember for now, if I can, I'll try to go back to the coroner's thread and find those posts again, I think the tox report question was raised by Soundmind.
I hope I am clear and not too "tough" with the details, English is not my first language so it's not always easy to find the right words in such a sore subject. I'm sorry if I hurt some of you, that was definitely not intended.
elusive moonwalker
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Re: Had another tall with a medical worker
yes i believe the doses were checked and murray gave at least 2x as much Loz as he said and also the times didnt match. he said he gave the loz in the early hours of the morning yet if that was the case the levels wouldnt have been so high or effected mj the way it did.what was in the autopsy defo contridicted what murray claimed
elusive moonwalker
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Re: Had another tall with a medical worker
from kop board
from kop board
elusive moonwalker
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Re: Had another tall with a medical worker
or around the same time. but it certainly wasnt given at the times murray claimed
honeysucklejasmine
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Re: Had another tall with a medical worker
I don't understand this part - from the autopsy report it appears that only femoral and heart blood were even tested for lorazepam.
I'm not sure why the liver appears to have been tested for only lidocaine & propofol. They tested heart blood and hospital blood and urine for various other benzodiazepines and wrote ND (not detected) if a particular benzo wasn't found so I don't understand why they didn't do the same for the liver, urine etc with regards to lorazepam...unless I'm reading a different autopsy report
TMZ http://www.tmz.com/2010/02/08/micha...fol-cause-of-death-homicide-dr-conrad-murray/
or they are holding this information back.
I don't understand this part - from the autopsy report it appears that only femoral and heart blood were even tested for lorazepam.
I'm not sure why the liver appears to have been tested for only lidocaine & propofol. They tested heart blood and hospital blood and urine for various other benzodiazepines and wrote ND (not detected) if a particular benzo wasn't found so I don't understand why they didn't do the same for the liver, urine etc with regards to lorazepam...unless I'm reading a different autopsy report
TMZ http://www.tmz.com/2010/02/08/micha...fol-cause-of-death-homicide-dr-conrad-murray/
or they are holding this information back.
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bouee
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Ohood
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Re: Had another tall with a medical worker
why did he do this ? is there any medical reason for doing this ?
why did he do this ? is there any medical reason for doing this ?
Re: Had another talk with a medical worker
Lorazepam as with any other benzos are also muscle relaxants (see heading "Central Acting Muscle Relaxants on the link") . That's why it's sometimes used for treating seizures. Interesting this drug was found in the heart blood as well as near his heart because the lorazpam would likely paralyzed the heart muscle.
I would love to elaborate more on this post, but such discussions will border on the autopsy and conspiracy forums here.
Lorazepam as with any other benzos are also muscle relaxants (see heading "Central Acting Muscle Relaxants on the link") . That's why it's sometimes used for treating seizures. Interesting this drug was found in the heart blood as well as near his heart because the lorazpam would likely paralyzed the heart muscle.
I would love to elaborate more on this post, but such discussions will border on the autopsy and conspiracy forums here.
Re: Had another talk with a medical worker
Stacey, click on the word "relaxant" or this link http://www.chemistrydaily.com/chemistry/Muscle_relaxants and scroll below. You will see Benzodiazpines under the title "Central Acting Muscle Relaxants" I will also look for more scholarly links as well.
I did human physiology lab back in college where I did a frog's heart experiment and use different chemicals (such as atropine I think) directly on the heart and record the results on a monitor. I still have the lab report on this experiment.
What CM did is no different except he infused the benzo (Lorazepam) through the heart vessels via IV. As someone posted earlier, this benzo was not found in the urine, which most likely means the drug was given after the propofol - a method similar to the lethal injection during an execution
http://www.chemistrydaily.com/chemistry/Lethal_injection
I'm not a medical person, but majored in biology as well as have some family members who are in the med profession.
Stacey, click on the word "relaxant" or this link http://www.chemistrydaily.com/chemistry/Muscle_relaxants and scroll below. You will see Benzodiazpines under the title "Central Acting Muscle Relaxants" I will also look for more scholarly links as well.
I did human physiology lab back in college where I did a frog's heart experiment and use different chemicals (such as atropine I think) directly on the heart and record the results on a monitor. I still have the lab report on this experiment.
What CM did is no different except he infused the benzo (Lorazepam) through the heart vessels via IV. As someone posted earlier, this benzo was not found in the urine, which most likely means the drug was given after the propofol - a method similar to the lethal injection during an execution
http://www.chemistrydaily.com/chemistry/Lethal_injection
I'm not a medical person, but majored in biology as well as have some family members who are in the med profession.
angelofhope
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Re: Had another talk with a medical worker
a method similar to the lethal injection during an execution
uke:
a method similar to the lethal injection during an execution
uke:honeysucklejasmine
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Re: Had another talk with a medical worker
Benzodiazepines affect the heart indirectly by acting on the nervous system thus possibly slowing the heart rate and possibly reducing the force of the heart muscle contraction. As far as I know benzodiazepines don't cause paralysis of the heart muscle per se, even in overdose.
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/813255-overview
Is this theory based on the lack of comment in the autopsy report regarding lorazepam levels in the urine & liver?
From what I can see they didn't even test for it other than in heart and femoral blood (where the levels were very high). Unless I'm missing something, if lorazepam wasn't tested for in the liver and urine, how can we say it wasn't detected?
Benzodiazepines affect the heart indirectly by acting on the nervous system thus possibly slowing the heart rate and possibly reducing the force of the heart muscle contraction. As far as I know benzodiazepines don't cause paralysis of the heart muscle per se, even in overdose.
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/813255-overview
Is this theory based on the lack of comment in the autopsy report regarding lorazepam levels in the urine & liver?
From what I can see they didn't even test for it other than in heart and femoral blood (where the levels were very high). Unless I'm missing something, if lorazepam wasn't tested for in the liver and urine, how can we say it wasn't detected?
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Justthefacts
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Re: Had another talk with a medical worker
thet tested but did not find it
thet tested but did not find it
Sophielo
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Re: Had another talk with a medical worker
Similar to a lethal injection? That just makes me feel sick.
Similar to a lethal injection? That just makes me feel sick.
honeysucklejasmine
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Re: Had another talk with a medical worker
Sorry to labour the point but if they tested for lorazepam in the liver and urine & didn't find it, my question would be why wasn't it recorded in the autopsy report as ND (not detected) as was done for the various other drugs they tested for but didn't detect?
Sorry to labour the point but if they tested for lorazepam in the liver and urine & didn't find it, my question would be why wasn't it recorded in the autopsy report as ND (not detected) as was done for the various other drugs they tested for but didn't detect?
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Justthefacts
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Re: Had another talk with a medical worker
If the coroner said Lorazepam was a factor in his death. Clearly it he was tested for it. Now why was it not listed in the drugs they tested for I guess we have to wait and see
If the coroner said Lorazepam was a factor in his death. Clearly it he was tested for it. Now why was it not listed in the drugs they tested for I guess we have to wait and see
Re: Had another talk with a medical worker
It wouldn't likely cause paralysis of the heart (cardiac muscle) from a context of a typical user overdose because Benzos are less toxic than barbiturates (the reason benzos are mostly used instead of barbs in medical practice).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2410040/?tool=pmcentrez
However, from reading the article you gave me and from a chemistry viewpoint,
This will likely tell me than CM knew what he was doing that was not in Mike's favor :no:
It wouldn't likely cause paralysis of the heart (cardiac muscle) from a context of a typical user overdose because Benzos are less toxic than barbiturates (the reason benzos are mostly used instead of barbs in medical practice).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2410040/?tool=pmcentrez
However, from reading the article you gave me and from a chemistry viewpoint,
Even more, we are talking direct application of the lorazepam onto cardiac muscle by a doctor who would know the concentration of this drug, and who will not forget its synergistics with propofol.
This will likely tell me than CM knew what he was doing that was not in Mike's favor :no:
Re: Had another talk with a medical worker
If the benzo was found only in the heart blood according to the report, the drug may have been given intraveneously (injection or through an IV). As for his waking suddenly, it could be because of sudden breathing distress (that's I can think of right now and need to research this some more).
Murray and his attorneys obviously will use this "sudden wakefulness" in their defense.
Cosigned with you on not knowing what to think anymore, for reading the report along with doing this homework are very unpleasant
This sounds pretty scary. Do you think that benzo was given trough IV? I wonder why he had opened eyes? Looks like Michael died when he was awake or something woke him up suddenly? I do not know what to think anymore.
If the benzo was found only in the heart blood according to the report, the drug may have been given intraveneously (injection or through an IV). As for his waking suddenly, it could be because of sudden breathing distress (that's I can think of right now and need to research this some more).
Murray and his attorneys obviously will use this "sudden wakefulness" in their defense.
Cosigned with you on not knowing what to think anymore, for reading the report along with doing this homework are very unpleasant
JMie
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Re: Had another talk with a medical worker
this is scary to read...
oh my god. ((((((((((
this is scary to read...
oh my god. ((((((((((
Maria MJ
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Re: Had another talk with a medical worker
Tragic.Devastating.Scary.
How more can we put up with?
Tragic.Devastating.Scary.
How more can we put up with?
honeysucklejasmine
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Re: Had another talk with a medical worker
As a physician myself, I've been involved with the management of intubated & ventilated patients who are sedated on propofol in intensive care. With the levels of propofol and other benzodiazepines documented in the autopsy report I would say there is no chance Michael was awake so please don't distress yourself with that thought.
This has been discussed in another thread and the feeling was that if indeed MJs eyes were slightly open it may have been after his pupillary reflexes were checked (but some patients die with their eyes slightly open regardless).
I wonder why he had opened eyes? Looks like Michael died when he was awake or something woke him up suddenly? I do not know what to think anymore.
As a physician myself, I've been involved with the management of intubated & ventilated patients who are sedated on propofol in intensive care. With the levels of propofol and other benzodiazepines documented in the autopsy report I would say there is no chance Michael was awake so please don't distress yourself with that thought.
This has been discussed in another thread and the feeling was that if indeed MJs eyes were slightly open it may have been after his pupillary reflexes were checked (but some patients die with their eyes slightly open regardless).
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elusive moonwalker
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Re: Had another talk with a medical worker
murray has already given his reason for that. as we know what his defence will be from all the leaks to TMZ
Dangerous21
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Re: Had another talk with a medical worker
Couple things I wanted to add (also a physician) although i have NOT read the autopsy (can't and don't want to)...
Comments such as this only scare people and, in my opinion, are not based on fact or science.
This doesn't really tell me much because
a) lorazepam may have only been tested in those blood samples. If the samples were positive for benzo (lorazepam), they may have just said "he's got benzos in his system"
b) if propofol was the culprit (and we all think it was), after cardiac arrest, the blood doesn't go anywhere. Nothing gets metabolized or cleared by the body. so it seems to make sense that it was present in whatever amounts that it was. it's also possible the concentrations are higher than expected because of that fact.
I'm not a toxicology expert, but this is the way I interpret these comments. I would be happy to answer/clarify more questions, but I forget to check this forum! I'm usually reading the General discussion or News forums...
Couple things I wanted to add (also a physician) although i have NOT read the autopsy (can't and don't want to)...
a method similar to the lethal injection during an execution
Comments such as this only scare people and, in my opinion, are not based on fact or science.
This doesn't really tell me much because
a) lorazepam may have only been tested in those blood samples. If the samples were positive for benzo (lorazepam), they may have just said "he's got benzos in his system"
b) if propofol was the culprit (and we all think it was), after cardiac arrest, the blood doesn't go anywhere. Nothing gets metabolized or cleared by the body. so it seems to make sense that it was present in whatever amounts that it was. it's also possible the concentrations are higher than expected because of that fact.
I'm not a toxicology expert, but this is the way I interpret these comments. I would be happy to answer/clarify more questions, but I forget to check this forum! I'm usually reading the General discussion or News forums...
Justthefacts
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Re: Had another talk with a medical worker
Get over your fear and read the report the only way to get over your fear. As a doctor I am sure it is not the first one you saw. I have a question he says he gave Michael the Liz at five in the morning and versus at seven. Don't you has a doctor find it strange that the loz did not move in five hours?
Get over your fear and read the report the only way to get over your fear. As a doctor I am sure it is not the first one you saw. I have a question he says he gave Michael the Liz at five in the morning and versus at seven. Don't you has a doctor find it strange that the loz did not move in five hours?