Tohme Tohme is Back and seeks financial records of MJ's estate

[ivy]

plus the reason that Tohme wants the records is this:

read the following

"Business manager Tohme Tohme filed a claim saying he is entitled to at least $2.3 million from the estate. The filing also claimed he is entitled to a sizable percentage of revenue from the film “This Is It”…"

the creditors claim at the estate report is also listed as $2,300,000+ - meaning again at least $2.3M.

Tohme wants to know the redacted numbers - in other words detailed revenue/profit information of TII - therefore he could know the exact amount of money (15 percent of the revenue) that he's claiming to be owed to him.

For people with fixed money amount claims, the exact amount of revenue/profits wouldn't matter.

If Michael honestly owed him money, Thome wouldn't have turned in the entire 5 mil that Michael owed him some of.

legally he can't do that. if he did that it would be stealing. Law says that you need to turn the assets and then make lawful claims. Legally you cannot confiscate other people's assets saying that they owe you money.Then anybody would get any asset of any dead person without showing any proof of the debt.

And NOT ONLY THAT! Who was the one writing Michael's checks?? It was Thome Thome! How can you not forget to pay your own self?????

when Michael died , they weren't getting any profits from TII. How could he pay himself his share of the profits when the concerts didn't even happened?

 

[JaneBender]

Certainly no one was advocating Tohme steal anything from Michael, she was just being sarcastic. Didn't Tohme magically come up with and return some of Michael's money to the estate after he died? What else has he been hiding? What other money and/or property has he taken? I think we're all saying the same thing, since he seemed to have already stolen money from Michael why NOW go to the estate to get more? He's a shady character, I do not trust him, and before the estate pays him a dime I want them to investigate him thoroughly. "Doctor" of what? That's what I wanna know.

 

[kasume]

^^ I was NOT being sarcastic. This is a man who doesn't do half what he says.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUDFrWIlGZI

legally he can't do that. Law says that you need to turn the assets and then make lawful claims. Legally you cannot confiscate other people's assets saying that they owe you money.Then anybody would get any asset of any dead person without showing any proof of the debt.

when Michael died , they weren't getting any profits from TII. How could he pay himself his share of the profits when the concerts didn't even happened?

Does anyone seriously think Dr. Thome Thome, Ambassdaor for the State of Senegal has any care about being sincere?????

I hope you are not just trying to confuse us all. If the concerts never happened, then of course their wouldn't be any profits for anyone. except from the documentary. But it doesn't say anywhere that Thome $2.3 he's asking are from TII. Or does it? Please show your source where it says that if so so that I can know.

edit: i see where it may hint to TII.

Tohme's motion seeks access to revenue, expense and profit information that is not publicly available.

so he's asking for AEG's files with michael. i thought Thome was kicked to the curb by Michael and no longer included with the TII shows.

 

[ivy]

Does anyone seriously think Dr. Thome Thome, Ambassdaor for the State of Senegal has any care about being sincere?????

I just said "he wouldn't commit felony theft". how could you equal "not committing felony theft" to "being sincere"? I didn't make a single personality claim about Tohme.

I hope you are not just trying to confuse us all. If the concerts never happened, then of course their wouldn't be any profits for anyone. except from the dvd. But it doesn't say anywhere that Thome $2.3 he's asking are from TII. Or does it? Please show your source where it says that if so so that I can know.

The $2.3 M he's asking is from the Neverland deal according to the older news reports. However the reason he's asking to unseal the financial reports is to determine how much he's owed from TII revenues.


“Business manager Tohme Tohme filed a claim saying he is entitled to at least $2.3 million from the estate. The filing also claimed he is entitled to a sizable percentage of revenue from the film “This Is It”…

Tohme claims he negotiated the contract for the concerts and is entitled to 15 percent of the revenue from the movie, DVD sales and album.

http://beatcrave.com/2010-09-29/michael-jacksons-business-manager-wants-2-3-million-from-mjs-estate/

Michael Jackson's former manager just filed a huge creditor's claim against the estate ... and it's mostly over the sale of Neverland Ranch in 2008.

In the documents, filed yesterday in L.A. County Superior Court, Dr. Tohme says he was promised a certain fee from Michael if he could locate a company to save Neverland Ranch from foreclosure last year.

Dr. Tohme claims he's the one who brought Colony Capital LLC to the table -- the company T says forked over $23 million to save Neverland. Dr. Tohme wants his cut of the deal -- which he claims is approximately $2.3 million.

In July of 2008, Dr. Tohme also says Michael promised him 15% of the singer's "gross compensation within the entertainment industry" -- but T has no clue how much he's owed for this one.

The doc wants in excess of $2.3 million.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/11/13/dr-tohme-tohme-wants-money-money-from-mj/

so you can easily see that he wants $2.3M for the Neverland deal (and no he couldn't take it out from the $5M he had - that would be felony theft) and 15% of the TII revenues for which he wants the record to be unsealed so that he can determine how much he's owed.

sidenote: and why would I try (seriously?) to confuse anyone when the information is easily available through a simple Google search. I just said that he wouldn't want to commit felony theft and he wouldn't be able to determine the revenues from TII before Michael died.

 

[Prince Of Pop]

Thome doesn't deserve 1 cent. He was fired and rightfully so. The estate will deal with him just like the other money grubbers.

No way he wins this one

 

[Sophielo]

Thome is a character I have been weary of for years, every time I saw him with Michael I wanted to scream at him 'DONT TRUST THIS MAN'. He's a charlatan who's out for himself. He has always given me such a bad vibe.

 

[kasume]

I just said "he wouldn't commit felony theft". how could you equal "not committing felony theft" to "being sincere"? I didn't make a single personality claim about Tohme.

Because stealing is insincere.

A fake like Thome Thome wouldn't give a damn about all that. Again, it's common sense.

Aside from all that, I forgot to mention in my earlier post. I wanted to bring up this again. Thome said that $5 million was a SECRET between ONLY him and Michael., meaning that the only people in the world who knew about it were him and Michael. You all can come up with your own generalizations about that.

 

[JaneBender]

^^ I was NOT being sarcastic. This is a man who doesn't do half what he says.

I wasn't talking about u hun, I was talking about MJ#1Stan. Sometimes I think folks around here need to calm down and READ before taking things personally or out of context.

And for the record I completely agree with you.

 

[PaceMioDolceCuore]

Maybe MJ fans could slowly start to understand that even when you know you have a fake in front of you- that even then you have to go through the official channels. Thome filed, and this it not going away by yelling and screaming obscenities.

Somebody explaining the legal roundabouts and situation doesn't mean condoning anyone's actions. It's just an explanation. Let's say you work in a store and you know you've got a real treat in front of you- you know the person is a real treat, it doesn't mean anything will get better by cussing them out.

It's as useful as writing to Mr. Mesereau to get involved when he is a criminal defense lawyer.

 

[Sophielo]

Maybe MJ fans could slowly start to understand that even when you know you have a fake in front of you- that even then you have to go through the official channels. Thome filed, and this it not going away by yelling and screaming obscenities.

Somebody explaining the legal roundabouts and situation doesn't mean condoning anyone's actions. It's just an explanation. Let's say you work in a store and you know you've got a real treat in front of you- you know the person is a real treat, it doesn't mean anything will get better by cussing them out.

It's as useful as writing to Mr. Mesereau to get involved when he is a criminal defense lawyer.

True, it might make people feel better by screaming and cussing, believe me I cant stand the guy and have made my feelings on him clear multiple times, but yes there are official channels that need to be used to deal with such claims etc. Its frustrating but Thome will get what is coming to him one way or the other, and this nonsense will be thrown out. The stealing $2 million dollars claim we cant really throw around as it was never proven and we have to be careful as we cant throw around statements that we might get slapped with a slander suit for.

 

[kasume]

I wasn't talking about u hun, I was talking about MJ#1Stan. Sometimes I think folks around here need to calm down and READ before taking things personally or out of context.

And for the record I completely agree with you.

Oh sorry. You had posted that comment right after me and ivy's posts. It can easily be mistakened that your post was directeds towards me.

I did READ your post. In fact, I read your ENTIRE post twice. You brought up Thome stealing from Michael. And ivy and I were leaning towards thome and felony theft. You see how it can be easily mistaken?

It's just that there are infiltrators (I will not name them) all over this board trying to sway the true fans AWAY from the truth. And they're quite strategical and clever. So my defense is always up.

 

[PaceMioDolceCuore]

True, it might make people feel better by screaming and cussing, believe me I cant stand the guy and have made my feelings on him clear multiple times, but yes there are official channels that need to be used to deal with such claims etc. Its frustrating but Thome will get what is coming to him one way or the other, and this nonsense will be thrown out. The stealing $2 million dollars claim we cant really throw around as it was never proven and we have to be careful as we cant throw around statements that we might get slapped with a slander suit for.

I agree there's quite a grey zone. It's extremely easy slide to into defamation and slander- and I am not saying that because I harbor any sympathy for all these people wanting yet another slice of the cake.

But, the law supposedly provides the same legal opportunities for all- wether that's the umpteenth "love child", "sperm donator"- or 3 managers at the same time. ("the art of jumping time lines")

 

[ivy]

Maybe MJ fans could slowly start to understand that even when you know you have a fake in front of you- that even then you have to go through the official channels. Thome filed, and this it not going away by yelling and screaming obscenities.

Somebody explaining the legal roundabouts and situation doesn't mean condoning anyone's actions. It's just an explanation. Let's say you work in a store and you know you've got a real treat in front of you- you know the person is a real treat, it doesn't mean anything will get better by cussing them out.

It's as useful as writing to Mr. Mesereau to get involved when he is a criminal defense lawyer.

True, it might make people feel better by screaming and cussing, believe me I cant stand the guy and have made my feelings on him clear multiple times, but yes there are official channels that need to be used to deal with such claims etc. Its frustrating but Thome will get what is coming to him one way or the other, and this nonsense will be thrown out. The stealing $2 million dollars claim we cant really throw around as it was never proven and we have to be careful as we cant throw around statements that we might get slapped with a slander suit for.

so true.

I always say that we are facing hard and sensitive times and emotions tend to overcome us. When the emotions are high, even simple legal and technical explanations seem like an attack.

plus it's important for us to remember that :

it doesn't mean that just because Tohme filed a request he would get access to the sealed financial information

and

it doesn't mean that just because Tohme filed a creditor's claim he would get paid.

 

[ginvid]

I am stating it pretty clearly, Thome is a thief IMO. He stole way more than what he is asking for and needs to take his butt with his tail between his legs and run before he makes people do more research in to his dealings with MJ and they uncover what he has carefully hidden.

Better yet, I hope he continues to make a fuss so this is exactly what happens. If someone can call MJ a **** and every other name in the book without proof, why can't we call him a thief when it is as clear as Rudolph's red nose.

I hope he makes such a fuss that they do a detailed investigation into what he really did with all of MJ's money. Maybe that is what is taking place, hence their delay in paying him though he filed a claim. Let's be positive and hope this is the case.

You can't be prosecuted for Libel if you state it is your opinion as opposed to being a fact. (or something like that). And that is what a forum is. A collection of opinions. Ivy can you clarify. We talk about any one else as much as we want stating what we feel to be the case. Why so easy all of a sudden with Thome? Why do we suddenly have to be careful and cannot speak freely as we choose? Did something happen that I don't know about? If not, I say he is free game just like any body else.

And we should be free to say "In our opinion" he is a liar and a thief and a no good criminal who can file all the motions he likes, but doesn't DESERVE a dime. And I hope he gets nada. (but a kick in the pants).

Thanks for all of the legal breakdowns, Ivy. I keep asking my friend but she is starting to think I am unhealthy, so I do not like to ask too much anymore.

 

[AnnieRUOkay89]

Well, there are not a tour and we do not know what is written in the contract.

Moreover, the loser was not involved in the new contract with Sony.

I'm not sure you understand how the law works, they're not on a tour, correct. BUT, if he negotiated for Michael, for the shows, and the tour as a whole, then he'd be entitled to revenue for products based on the tour. He'd be entitled to a portion of the money raised by This Is It album and film, because without that contract, without he and Michael's negotiations with AEG, there would be no film, no album, no nothing based on This Is It. It's quite difficult to explain, but basically if the contract didn't exist, then we would have no This Is It footage, or CD...It may seem a bit fishy, but that's the law. And the Sony contract has nothing to do with This Is It, it has to do with future releases of Michael's music, Tohme has no entitlement to that, and from my knowledge he isn't asking for any of that.


Not defending the snake, but it's the truth, also Randy Phillips, Kenny Ortega, and DiLeo all confirmed that Tohme negotiated the contract, we have yet to see it in writing, although I believe the contract leaked before, and Tohme's name was mentioned in it a couple of times...Bottomline is, he has a legit claim for some entitlements to funds raised by the film and album that was released. Now as far as wanting the records goes, I'm not sure about any of that, but he only wants it because of his greed and inability to be patient and let the estate work this stuff out.

 

[kasume]

I'll say it one last time. Why would someone not pay themselves when they're the ones writing the checks for their boss, and even accessing their banking accounts?

If someone has an answer for that, please let me know.

Thome also claims he is owed 15% from TII movie, dvd sales and album, according to the latest article. TII made more than $70 million in theatres, not including dvd sales and the album. $2.3 million is not even 15% of the movie alone.

And also, it is quite a coincidence how the fee he wants from Neverland Ranch and the fee he claims that TII owes him is the same amount of money.

Thome makes less and less sense.

 

[Butterfly26]

How low do people go for the dough to make a mess of things..

I wanna shout, throw my hands up and shout
What's this madness all about?
All this makes me wanna shout
You know it makes me wanna shout
Throw my hands up and shout
What's this madness all about?
All this makes me wanna shout, c'mon now

Shout- Michael Jackson

 

[MJStorm]

I'm not sure you understand how the law works, they're not on a tour, correct. BUT, if he negotiated for Michael, for the shows, and the tour as a whole, then he'd be entitled to revenue for products based on the tour. He'd be entitled to a portion of the money raised by This Is It album and film, because without that contract, without he and Michael's negotiations with AEG, there would be no film, no album, no nothing based on This Is It. It's quite difficult to explain, but basically if the contract didn't exist, then we would have no This Is It footage, or CD...It may seem a bit fishy, but that's the law. And the Sony contract has nothing to do with This Is It, it has to do with future releases of Michael's music, Tohme has no entitlement to that, and from my knowledge he isn't asking for any of that.


Not defending the snake, but it's the truth, also Randy Phillips, Kenny Ortega, and DiLeo all confirmed that Tohme negotiated the contract, we have yet to see it in writing, although I believe the contract leaked before, and Tohme's name was mentioned in it a couple of times...Bottomline is, he has a legit claim for some entitlements to funds raised by the film and album that was released. Now as far as wanting the records goes, I'm not sure about any of that, but he only wants it because of his greed and inability to be patient and let the estate work this stuff out.

AGAIN, we do not know what is written in the contract. How can we assume that he is entitled to something if we do not know what is written in the contract? In this case, if the contract is written something different, it overrides the law.

Let's wait and see.

 

[Autumn II]

I'll say it one last time. Why would someone not pay themselves when they're the ones writing the checks for their boss, and even accessing their banking accounts?

If someone has an answer for that, please let me know.

Why on earth would you think he DIDN'T pay himself? But if he paid himself excessively, that would be found in an audit, such as no doubt has been done by the executors, and that is ILLEGAL, and there could be penalties under the law! I'd assume he DID pay himself, and now is asking for even MORE.

Whatever he may have paid himself as Michael's manager was probably loose change compared to what he's going for NOW! 15% of the movie? DVD sales? Album? Plus future earnings TII could generate? That's HUGE.

His claims make PERFECT sense, if what he wants is to reap the maximum benefits for himself. It might also be LEGAL, if it is proven that he brokered the AEG deal.

 

[Butterfly26]

I am stating it pretty clearly, Thome is a thief IMO. He stole way more than what he is asking for and needs to take his butt with his tail between his legs and run before he makes people do more research in to his dealings with MJ and they uncover what he has carefully hidden.

Better yet, I hope he continues to make a fuss so this is exactly what happens. If someone can call MJ a **** and every other name in the book without proof, why can't we call him a thief when it is as clear as Rudolph's red nose.

I hope he makes such a fuss that they do a detailed investigation into what he really did with all of MJ's money. Maybe that is what is taking place, hence their delay in paying him though he filed a claim. Let's be positive and hope this is the case.

You can't be prosecuted for Libel if you state it is your opinion as opposed to being a fact. (or something like that). And that is what a forum is. A collection of opinions. Ivy can you clarify. We talk about any one else as much as we want stating what we feel to be the case. Why so easy all of a sudden with Thome? Why do we suddenly have to be careful and cannot speak freely as we choose? Did something happen that I don't know about? If not, I say he is free game just like any body else.

And we should be free to say "In our opinion" he is a liar and a thief and a no good criminal who can file all the motions he likes, but doesn't DESERVE a dime. And I hope he gets nada. (but a kick in the pants).

Thanks for all of the legal breakdowns, Ivy. I keep asking my friend but she is starting to think I am unhealthy, so I do not like to ask too much anymore.

Ginvid. Im so with you on that one. Let's all pray that this MESS rules in the estate's favor. This may sound terrible, but I do hope he was doing illegal things with the books. I want to finally see that troll BANISHED to his damp hole for good.

 

[Butterfly26]

I just said "he wouldn't commit felony theft". how could you equal "not committing felony theft" to "being sincere"? I didn't make a single personality claim about Tohme.



The $2.3 M he's asking is from the Neverland deal according to the older news reports. However the reason he's asking to unseal the financial reports is to determine how much he's owed from TII revenues.


“Business manager Tohme Tohme filed a claim saying he is entitled to at least $2.3 million from the estate. The filing also claimed he is entitled to a sizable percentage of revenue from the film “This Is It”…

Tohme claims he negotiated the contract for the concerts and is entitled to 15 percent of the revenue from the movie, DVD sales and album.

http://beatcrave.com/2010-09-29/michael-jacksons-business-manager-wants-2-3-million-from-mjs-estate/

Michael Jackson's former manager just filed a huge creditor's claim against the estate ... and it's mostly over the sale of Neverland Ranch in 2008.

In the documents, filed yesterday in L.A. County Superior Court, Dr. Tohme says he was promised a certain fee from Michael if he could locate a company to save Neverland Ranch from foreclosure last year.

Dr. Tohme claims he's the one who brought Colony Capital LLC to the table -- the company T says forked over $23 million to save Neverland. Dr. Tohme wants his cut of the deal -- which he claims is approximately $2.3 million.

In July of 2008, Dr. Tohme also says Michael promised him 15% of the singer's "gross compensation within the entertainment industry" -- but T has no clue how much he's owed for this one.

The doc wants in excess of $2.3 million.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/11/13/dr-tohme-tohme-wants-money-money-from-mj/

so you can easily see that he wants $2.3M for the Neverland deal (and no he couldn't take it out from the $5M he had - that would be felony theft) and 15% of the TII revenues for which he wants the record to be unsealed so that he can determine how much he's owed.

sidenote: and why would I try (seriously?) to confuse anyone when the information is easily available through a simple Google search. I just said that he wouldn't want to commit felony theft and he wouldn't be able to determine the revenues from TII before Michael died.

WTF, its like he wants everything! Ridiculous! Wait! he stated, "Michael promised him" I wan't to know is there a contract detailing this? Or is just a bunch of alleged "promises"?

I truly don't believe he gave all the money to the estate. I truly hope they look into this deeply before they make any decisions and that is probably why it hasn't been handled yet.

Thanks IVY for the info.

 

[Ashtanga]

Tohme... uke:

This man is still so obscure in this story. :bugeyed This is all a big nightmare to us. :fear: Everyone is so tired of trying to understand all these things. I really hope that the truth appears. ray:

 

[AnnieRUOkay89]

AGAIN, we do not know what is written in the contract. How can we assume that he is entitled to something if we do not know what is written in the contract? In this case, if the contract is written something different, it overrides the law.

Let's wait and see.

I'm just saying, it's been said by all involved parties that Tohme negotiated the contract. With that said, there's a high possibility it's in writing, you just have yet to see it.

 

[ivy]

You can't be prosecuted for Libel if you state it is your opinion as opposed to being a fact. (or something like that). And that is what a forum is. A collection of opinions. Ivy can you clarify. We talk about any one else as much as we want stating what we feel to be the case. Why so easy all of a sudden with Thome? Why do we suddenly have to be careful and cannot speak freely as we choose? Did something happen that I don't know about? If not, I say he is free game just like any body else.

And we should be free to say "In our opinion" he is a liar and a thief and a no good criminal who can file all the motions he likes, but doesn't DESERVE a dime. And I hope he gets nada. (but a kick in the pants).

Thanks for all of the legal breakdowns, Ivy. I keep asking my friend but she is starting to think I am unhealthy, so I do not like to ask too much anymore.

First Amendment gives us freedom of speech to express our opinions as long as it's not promoting violence and/or hate speech.

As you said it's important to clearly differentiate between opinion and fact. (opinions presented as fact is treated as a fact). One of the most common defense against a defamation claim is saying that "it was an opinion" but to do such defense it must be clear that it's just an personal opinion.

It's harder to prove defamation against public figures (as it also requires malice - knowing that the statement is false or showing a reckless disregard for the truth) as such people and events brings the public interest and the freedom to express opinions - again the keyword being an opinion.

One important thing is "defamation per se". Generally for a defamation claim people have to show a damage (such as their reputation being damaged) however there are some statements which are considered to be too harmful that damage is automatically assumed to have happened (the other side do not have to prove damages).

Defamation per se includes any allegations of criminal activity (murder, fraud, theft etc will all fall under this category). For example look to press even if they are reporting a criminal activity, an arrest, somebody waiting for a trial etc they would often used the word "allegedly".

so in short : make sure that it's clearly an opinion (when people read it they don't perceive it as a fact), if you are basing your claims on other sources or people state your source or use "allegedly" and try not to accuse people of criminal activity.

I'll say it one last time. Why would someone not pay themselves when they're the ones writing the checks for their boss, and even accessing their banking accounts?

If someone has an answer for that, please let me know.

I guess you are mentioning Dileo's statement about his control.

This one : http://popdirt.com/michael-jacksons-doubts-about-tohme-tohme/75731/

If that's the source, it is too vague we don't know the extent of his power.

There could be a joint account that he was managing and/or he could have the power to sign checks to a certain amount (such as you can authorize a person to sign checks up to $10,000 )

plus autumn II is absolutely right

Why on earth would you think he DIDN'T pay himself? But if he paid himself excessively, that would be found in an audit, such as no doubt has been done by the executors, and that is ILLEGAL, and there could be penalties under the law!

Even if he had the absolute power , he may not choose to overpay himself extensively as it could be found during an audit and/or paper trail and that would be embezzlement.

Thome also claims he is owed 15% from TII movie, dvd sales and album, according to the latest article. TII made more than $70 million in theatres, not including dvd sales and the album. $2.3 million is not even 15% of the movie alone.

And also, it is quite a coincidence how the fee he wants from Neverland Ranch and the fee he claims that TII owes him is the same amount of money.

Thome makes less and less sense.

I think you misunderstood : He wants $2.3M for Neverland deal plus an unknown amount from TII revenues. (it's not the same amount) He wants to see the TII revenues to determine what would be the 15% that he claims Michael promised him.

 

[ginvid]

^^^Thanks Ivy.
That is what I thought. And I reiterate that I believe that Thome DID steal millions from MJ already. He is so FOStuff. And should not receive anything.-_-

 

[yaazgurl]

He wants to see the TII revenues to determine what would be the 15% that he claims Michael promised him.

If his claim is based on promises then maybe its not detailed in the contract and there's a loop hole for the estate? Just wish his name had been added to Katherine's lawsuit.

 

[kasume]

I think you misunderstood : He wants $2.3M for Neverland deal plus an unknown amount from TII revenues. (it's not the same amount) He wants to see the TII revenues to determine what would be the 15% that he claims Michael promised him.

o i c

 

[ivy]

If his claim is based on promises then maybe its not detailed in the contract and there's a loop hole for the estate?

without seeing/knowing about the contracts/agreements between Michael and Tohme it's hard to say anything. so as of now anything is possible.

 

[Dangerous Incorporated]

A lot of ppl claim to be behind setting up TII dont they?

Does this mean that Tohme is still in the US?

 

[#1MJstan]

so why didn't he take the $2.3mil out of the money he stole??!!

why would we advocate that he steal from Michael? Like him or hate him, it's always better that he goes through legal ways to get money. Estate (and their lawyers) are more than capable. If Tohme has a legit claim he gets paid, if he doesn't the estate can fight him in court.

Apparently you took what I said out of context. I wasn't advocating stealing, I was being sarcastic. But anywho, I am all for a person being paid their $$ if he can legally prove he is entitled to the $. As for him being impatient about getting paid well that's another story. He needs to wait inline just like all the other creditors.