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Preliminary Hearing 11/1/11. Day Six. Discussion Thread

Ingelief said:
I believe that when murray said first 10.40 that that mostly the true.. so that means trouble 11.00 death 11.15 thats like an hour what the paremedics said..

I believe that i think
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and didnt notice cause he was on the phone non stop from 11.18-12.00 thats the feeling ive always had
 
Soundmind said:
no, the prosecution so far has not told them what was the time of death or at least what is the prosecution's estimation of when MJ's life really ended.

Based on the testimony, MJ died between 11:51 and 12:03. You don't cough after propofol injection you would be out within 5 seconds, you don't cough under propofol IV, you cough when you are waking up from propofol.

Flagan's theory as laid by the defence "yes Murray induced sleep using a syringe but it was infused for 3 to 5 minutes starting 10:40 am, its effect would have worn off within minutes and at 11 am MJ was sleeping but without propofol effect, which the expert agreed to.

They are saying after that, if MJ died of acute propofol intoxication, then it had nothing to do with what Murray gave at 10:40 am , understandably "after 40 minutes would an infusion of 25 mg given for 3 to 5 minutes have any effect on him? " the expert replied NO.

He brought the 2 minutes argument.

The coroner said Murray told investigators "I went to the bathroom" he had to walk through long corridor to reach the bathroom, Jackson was heavy sedate by propofol and then he woke up and administered propofol to himself and stopped breathing ( he's talking about I left after ten minutes of that dose for two minutes only ) , all that happened within two minutes maximum and that's why he ruled it a homicide because it did not make sense to him ( later he said the expert told them mj could not do it due to the IV configuration)

Falagan asked him with 150mg of propofol what would be the onset of sedation especially at 4.5 mg blood concentration, the coroner said he believed it was within one minute , he said MJ received propofol on 10:40 am , the effect of propofol at 12 would have worn off , MJ would be sober enough to do it himself at 12 and at 4.5 blood concentration, one minute would have been enough .


He brought the 2 minutes and death within one minute later with the expert also
. The expert said Murray deviated from standard care when he left his patient without monitoring for 2 minutes and did not perform CPR appropriately

Flagan said but at 4.5 ( apparently antemortem they were higher by 30%) how could Murray possibly brought him back, he was already gone , how could have he known he drunk propofol or injected propofol?

The expert explained a very complicated technic to bring breathing back , and to sound more convincing he said Murray should have predicted MJ would wae up and inject himself or drink propofol cus he was a known addict, he repeated this words four times " he knew he had a known addict in the room, he should have never allowed propofol to be into his reach"


Yes, the media said this is a point for the prosecution, but if a jury hears expert on propofol say that, Murray will walk.

That expert throw MJ under the bus to make an argument. He mentioned the word known addict at least 4 times .
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and thats the problem. the defence can build around the pros case. they have an excuse or theory for everything.

Falagan asked him with 150mg of propofol what would be the onset of sedation especially at 4.5 mg blood concentration, the coroner said he believed it was within one minute , he said MJ received propofol on 10:40 am , the effect of propofol at 12 would have worn off , MJ would be sober enough to do it himself at 12 and at 4.5 blood concentration, one minute would have been enough .
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I believe that when murray said first 10.40 that that mostly the true.. so that means trouble 11.00 death 11.15 thats like an hour what the paremedics said..

I believe that i think
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no that would have been an hour and 40 minutes. If he gave MJ propofol at 10:40 am , mj would not have died at 11 am , he would have died immediately .

 
elusive moonwalker said:
and didnt notice cause he was on the phone non stop from 11.18-12.00 thats the feeling ive always had
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That's my feeling too. I tend to believe the 10.40 timeline (and the TOD probably being between 10.40 and 11.00), because during that police interview he didn't know what they have on him yet or what they would find out (in general, but also in the autopsy). So at that point he didn't know that the timeline would be one of the most important things, he was probably also hoping they wouldn't find the Propofol at all in the autopsy or not a lot of it. And he also didn't have much time before the police interview to make up some story that would explain everything. And as we know, there's actually a lot to explain. It starts with the 3 lidocaine vials - 2 empty and one opened with some lidocaine left in it (possibly 3 Propofol injections during that night?), and ends with why didn't he call 911 sooner (he knew it was too late?).
 
murray said he gave diprivan over 3-4 mins at around 10.40 correct? well he was on the phone from 10.30-10.52 if was off the phone pretty much from 10.52 till around 11.10. the tox reports say more than one injection of dip was given over x amount of hours through the morning of the 25th?
 
Ingelief said:
I believe that when murray said first 10.40 that that mostly the true.. so that means trouble 11.00 death 11.15 thats like an hour what the paremedics said..

I believe that i think
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Another thing that was said is that respiratory arrest would happen very quickly if the dose was given too fast. so 10 40 would mean he was dead for about 1h30 when the paramedics arrived, 2h15mn when he arrived at UCLA. Dr Cooper would have noticed ?? The cardiologist at UCLA also ?

If trouble occured at 11, then MJ was on a drip, then ? Since there was no pump, your theory would mean that something went wrong with the drip, and Murray did not realise it ?

I don't know if the facts in the autopsy report support that too (drip vs bolus injection)
 
then he gave around 11.00 when he was not on the phone, because i agree with milka..
about the first statement i believe is the most true.. (and just two days after)

he give at 11.00 amount in 5 min.. then he left to make the phone calls )thinking michael would be asleep awile (he gave like 200mg say thats the amount hypoth.') and came back seeing michael not breathing..

that would make michael say death at 11.20~? and an hour later the paremedics arrive
he was then cold to touch blue feet and approc. death for at least 20 min til 1 hour
 
elusive moonwalker said:
and thats the problem. the defence can build around the pros case. they have an excuse or theory for everything.
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Not really.You see, the problem still will be with Murray's OWN testimony. Even if MJ would have been alert enough at 11 a.m. to inject himself and did it...then where was Dr. Murray? According to him he was right next to MJ...minus the 2 minutes he said he was away and when he came back he noticed MJ was not breathing and things went from there. So according to his own testimony he was away for 2 minutes and when he came back MJ was not breathing. To admit he found MJ not breathing at 11 a.m....and then continued phone calls would no exactly be helpful to Murray's defense, would it? If he says he was mistaken about the time and it was noon when he went away and when he came back MJ was not breathing also will not help him, because in that case MJ was not yet beyond th epoint of being rescued, and since he was the one there who was administratin Propofol, he SHOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE to help Michael like it was no big deal and routine to him. There is no getting over that fact. You do NOT administer Propofol if you do not know how to help a patient who stops breathing. PERIOD. And if Murray changes his testimony and says he was away 40 minutes to an hour....that will not help him much either. In fact, that would be WORSE for him for two reasons. It would be even WORSE to know he left someone who got all those sedatives AND Propofol alone for over FORTY minutes...and...he would also admit he has been lying all this time. MJ died over one and a half YEARS ago. Leaves him enough time to remember if he was away for 2 minutes or for 40 minutes. And until now he has insisted it was two minutes max. SO if he starts changing his story, it will make him look even more guilty.

Also...if he is so sure that his patient is doing well and there is no danger to the patient if left alone for over 40 minutes...why would he then try to hide the Propofol bottles and lidocaine bottles in that case. He wouldn't have anything to hide, now would he? After all...he's innocent because he wasn't even in the room. Right? :smilerolleyes:
 
no one is talking about a drip any more, the prosecution is going with the bolus injection theory BASED ON THE EVIDENCE. The defence tried first the IV drip, found nothing physically support that , they moved to the broken syringe and now orally taken propofol. They will be back to the syringe .


no be in stress immidiat
not death
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no , if he was given a bolus injection as the prosecutors are saying he would have been dead WITHIN ONE MINUTE
 
elusive moonwalker said:
murray said he gave diprivan over 3-4 mins at around 10.40 correct? well he was on the phone from 10.30-10.52 if was off the phone pretty much from 10.52 till around 11.10. the tox reports say more than one injection of dip was given over x amount of hours through the morning of the 25th?
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Not only on one phone. He was calling from BOTH phones around 10:40 a.m.!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
bouee said:
Another thing that was said is that respiratory arrest would happen very quickly if the dose was given too fast. so 10 40 would mean he was dead for about 1h30 when the paramedics arrived, 2h15mn when he arrived at UCLA. Dr Cooper would have noticed ?? The cardiologist at UCLA also ?
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That I don't know ... I have to go reread that again in the update thread. I only remember that at the hospital Murray told them to do whatever they do in a situation like that, I think telling them he still felt a pulse at the house or something? But I don't know what they noticed or didn't notice when the ambulance arrived at the hospital. The timeline thing alone gives you a headache ...

Ingelief said:
that would make michael say death at 11.20~? and an hour later the paremedics arrive
he was then cold to touch blue feet and approc. death for at least 20 min til 1 hour
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Right, their observations would fit with both theories, but the 10.40 one (give or take a couple of minutes) would fit also.
 
Soundmind said:
no one is talking about a drip any more, the prosecution is going with the bolus injection theory BASED ON THE EVIDENCE. The defence tried first the IV drip, found nothing physically support that , they moved to the broken syringe and now orally taken propofol. They will be back to the syringe .




no , if he was given a bolus injection as the prosecutors are saying he would have been dead WITHIN ONE MINUTE
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you cant be death in one minute that is already in a testimony, you are first not breathing then you heart stops and then you are brain death is a process
not in 1 min
 
summer said:
Not really.You see, the problem still will be with Murray's OWN testimony. Even if MJ would have been alert enough at 11 a.m. to inject himself and did it...then where was Dr. Murray? According to him he was right next to MJ...minus the 2 minutes he said he was away and when he came back he noticed MJ was not breathing and things went from there. So according to his own testimony he was away for 2 minutes and when he came back MJ was not breathing. To admit he found MJ not breathing at 11 a.m....and then continued phone calls would no exactly be helpful to Murray's defense, would it? If he says he was mistaken about the time and it was noon when he went away and when he came back MJ was not breathing also will not help him, because in that case MJ was not yet beyond th epoint of being rescued, and since he was the one there who was administratin Propofol, he SHOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE to help Michael like it was no big deal and routine to him. There is no getting over that fact. You do NOT administer Propofol if you do not know how to help a patient who stops breathing. PERIOD. And if Murray changes his testimony and says he was away 40 minutes to an hour....that will not help him much either. In fact, that would be WORSE for him for two reasons. It would be even WORSE to know he left someone who got all those sedatives AND Propofol alone for over FORTY minutes...and...he would also admit he has been lying all this time. MJ died over one and a half YEARS ago. Leaves him enough time to remember if he was away for 2 minutes or for 40 minutes. And until now he has insisted it was two minutes max. SO if he starts changing his story, it will make him look even more guilty.

Also...if he is so sure that his patient is doing well and there is no danger to the patient if left alone for over 40 minutes...why would he then try to hide the Propofol bottles and lidocaine bottles in that case. He wouldn't have anything to hide, now would he? After all...he's innocent because he wasn't even in the room. Right? :smilerolleyes:
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I believe he lied about the 2 minutes.. and because he was not on the phone between 10.52 and 11.08~? that make sense he gave it then..

also the ask him were you on the phone when you gave michael prop, he says no, so you can look at the phone records, then you can lay it out for him, and he is cought in lies then.
also like you said in your post he is screwed either way
 
:better:
summer said:
Not only on one phone. He was calling from BOTH phones around 10:40 a.m.!!!!!!!!!!!!
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yeah between 10.34-10.42 he was on two phones at the same time and was on at least one phone from 10.29 - 10.51
 
you cant be death in one minute that is already in a testimony, you are first not breathing then you heart stops and then you are brain death is a process
not in 1 min
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the heart stopped within one minute due to rapid injection. 4.5 ug/ml( according to the expert it could have been higher ) is consistent with propofol concentrations after ONE minute of an induction dose. Concentration remained at 4.5 ug/ml that means there was no time for propofol to redistribute from brain and blood , the blood circulation stopped, your blood circulation stops when your heart stops.

4.5 ug/ml indicates a very short survival time.

read on propofol concentrations after one minute of injection , you will understand what I'm saying.
 
Milka said:
The timeline thing alone gives you a headache ...
.
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Yes ...

but remember homicide based on "lack of proper care", I agree with Summer, and that's what I've been thinking since the coroner's report came out last year : there is no way around it, at least I don't see one.

And that's why I don't understand the IM charge.
 
Ingelief said:
I believe he lied about the 2 minutes.. and because he was not on the phone between 10.52 and 11.08~? that make sense he gave it then..

also the ask him were you on the phone when you gave michael prop, he says no, so you can look at the phone records, then you can lay it out for him, and he is cought in lies then.
also like you said in your post he is screwed either way
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Well of course he is lying. Everyone knows that. :lol: I was just trying to make a point about how he is pretty much doomed either way. If he says he was away for close to an hour...not good. If he says he was away for 2 minutes, still not okay to leave a patient, but MJ could easily have been saved had Murray known what to do. Also, since Murray obviously did NOT know what to do....he was putting Michael in a life-threatening situation anyways every single time he was giving him Propofol. Michael could hav stopped breathing ANY time Murray gave Propofol, and what was MUrray to do then? MJ would have been dead in that case also. So again, whether Murray gave it or MJ drank it or self-injected really isn't even the issue, because Murray has ADMITTED he gave Propofol. And it is clear he did not know what to do if the patient stops breathing. So...that means...if Michael would have stopped breathing when Murray gave it, he would havebeen dead ALSO. Because Murray did not know what to do to hlp someone who is not breathing. And the very first priority when giving Propofol is to have someone there who knows how to rescue a patient, especially one who stops breathing. Remember the charge is "involuntary manslaughter". The question is, was Murray grossly negligent in his care or not? Yes, he was. And no matter what way you twist it, it's still a yes. If he left for 2 minutes or 40 minutes, it doesn't really matter. You do not leave the patient, period. You need to have the equipment there when giving Propofol. And you need to know what to do if the patient stops breathing. If you don't have the equipment, if you don't know what to do to help the patient...it is ABSOLUTELY RECKLESS to administer Propofol. No matter WHAT amount. Period.
 
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The defences's theory of the timeline could prove pivotal. They say the police got it wrong, how, when they were questioning Murray for two days? What possible way could they use a timeline to support their argument. Oh Michael drank propofol when Murray was gone? Right, so he convinently woke up, poured propofol in his juice, and drank it in the space of two minutes? Right......biggest pile of crap. All they're hanging on is those two minutes when Murray was out of the room convinently saying thats when it all happened yet neglecting to mention the fact he should never have been out of the room anyway.
 
Soundmind said:
the heart stopped within one minute due to rapid injection. 4.5 ug/ml( according to the expert it could have been higher ) is consistent with propofol concentrations after ONE minute of an induction dose. Concentration remained at 4.5 ug/ml that means there was no time for propofol to redistribute from brain and blood , the blood circulation stopped, your blood circulation stops when your heart stops.

4.5 ug/ml indicates a very short survival time.

read on propofol concentrations after one minute of injection , you will understand what I'm saying.
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again please dont put this information here as though it is fact..we do not know thsi for sure...if you are saying that it is your opinion then that is different..but to put as fact..that is not right...you could be wrong ..You could also be right..but we dont know this.
 
Soundmind said:
no one is talking about a drip any more, the prosecution is going with the bolus injection theory BASED ON THE EVIDENCE.
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Could you please explain that again ??? I'm really tired (haven't slept much, I work early in the morning and the prelim ended at 2 am here....), I'm confused about this.
If it's definitely not a drip, then it can help narrow a timeline a little bit.
 
Ingelief said:
you cant be death in one minute that is already in a testimony, you are first not breathing then you heart stops and then you are brain death is a process
not in 1 min
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Of course. With a cardiac arrest, brain damage begins to occur at around FOUR minutes. If effective CPR is performed, there can be enough oxygenation to delay brain damage/death. The hospital was only a few minutes away. If Murray had been WITH Michael at the time of cardiac arrest, it's possible he could have been saved.
 
Soundmind said:
the heart stopped within one minute due to rapid injection. 4.5 ug/ml( according to the expert it could have been higher ) is consistent with propofol concentrations after ONE minute of an induction dose. Concentration remained at 4.5 ug/ml that means there was no time for propofol to redistribute from brain and blood , the blood circulation stopped, your blood circulation stops when your heart stops.

4.5 ug/ml indicates a very short survival time.

read on propofol concentrations after one minute of injection , you will understand what I'm saying.
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That is inaccurate. Propofol intoxication causes death by first causing a respiratory arrest, ie one stops breathing. With no oxygen to the brain and other vital organs in the body, a cardiac arrest follows ie one's heart stops beating. Propofol in those concentrations itself does not directly cause the heart to stop beating. And if the patient is found within a short time of having stopped breathing, supporting the breathing will rectify the problem if this is before there is damage to the brain etc from the lack of oxygen. So death is not within one minute. The brain can survive for a few minutes without oxygen.
 
Murray said himself that previously he gave a bolus toget MJ to sleep and then gave a drip to keep MJ sleeping.

Murray could have injected a bolus around 10:40 a.m...then put MJ on a Propofol drip that was going in with a too big of a dose....Murray left the room for 40 minutes...MJ would not have stopped breathing immediately, but by the time he had gotten too much of Propofol...and Murray was out of the room by then. Then Murray came back, saw that MJ was not breathing and panicked...disconnected the Propofol drip...and the rest we know. Murray said he gave a bolus and THEN started the drip. In that case MJ can't wake up and adjust the low of teh drip because he is continuosly getting Propofol.

We don't know if there was a drip, all I'm saying is that it's a possibility. And the Propofol bottle in the i.v. bag could speak for it.

And on a side note, I will just ignore certain comments from certain posters, because I'm tired of them already.
 
Med board: Jackson doctor still has Nevada license


By KEN RITTER Associated Press
Posted: 01/12/2011 11:59:04 AM PST
Updated: 01/12/2011 12:09:03 PM PST


LAS VEGAS—A medical board official says Michael Jackson's personal physician still has a license to practice in Nevada.
Nevada Board of Medical Examiners chief Douglas Cooper tells The Associated Press the board is reviewing a California judge's order suspending Dr. Conrad Murray's ability to practice in that state.

But Cooper says Nevada hasn't made a decision yet.

Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor on Tuesday called it a public safety issue to prevent Murray from practicing medicine pending his involuntary manslaughter trial in Jackson's death.

Murray lives in Las Vegas and has licenses to practice in Nevada and Texas.

His lawyer, Charles Peckham in Houston, says he hopes Texas follows Nevada's lead, reviews Murray's case and talks with patients before making a decision.
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http://www.dailynews.com/ci_17077464?IADID=Search-www.dailynews.com-www.dailynews.com


:bugeyed



:doh:
 
i guess another excuse is he only gave 25mg so when mj was still asleep after the time he should have woken up ie 5 mins max thats why he left the room for 40 mins! becasue mj wwasnt under the effect of the drug anymore and was sleeping normally.see how he has an excuse for everything. (putting aside the i left the room admitance)

the most horrible thing about this is whatever the outcome we will prob never know what really happened to mj in those last hours and we will have to live with that ontop of everything else
 
elusive moonwalker said:
i guess another excuse is he only gave 25mg so when mj was still asleep after the time he should have woken up ie 5 mins max thats why he left the room for 40 mins! becasue mj wwasnt under the effect of the drug anymore and was sleeping normally.

the most horrible thing about this is whatever the outcome we will prob never know what really happened to mj in those last hours and we will have to live with that ontop of everything else
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yes..you are correct....and I am so sorry that it is like this...:hug:
 
Pace said:
Here you are.
I was watching this interview and said, gee, thanks universe for making sure I watched this.

Thomas Mesereau:
"You don't overreact to a bad day, or a good day.
You keep everything in perspective, it's a holistic thing.
You can't really score it, the way the media does and say, you know, 'It's the bottom of the third inning and one team is doing better than another team.'
It doesn't work that way, you have to look at everything in terms of the whole- and it's not done, until it's done.
So I never overreact to a good moment- or a bad moment. I just keep things in perspective, do it one day at a time and just keep focussed on your objective."
^^^He said that in an interview with William Wagener, taped in December of 2010, part 2 of the interview.

I'm about to tape that to my mirror, or make that a signature.

P.S.: Let me know when you plan on being in front of that court house drinking, as you promised in another Prelim. thread. I'll pour some 'juice' into my juicebox and join ya!!
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^^There is the quote. Thank you. This is a very important quote for the trial thread. I think making a siggy of it is a good idea. I am waiting for the date for the coroner's testimony during the trial. Then I will be in LA for that day. I hope a lot of fans decide to come on that day too. Hopefully, the coroner's testimony will not run for multiple days.
 
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