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Murray Trial - 12 October - Day 11 - Discussion

Alayasha said:
Flannagan's big evidence was the study where propofol was used to treat severe insomnia. I think it was Dr. Steinberg who pointed out that it was done in China after MJ died and only for two weeks, lol.
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and in a proper hospital setting!
 
I just find it really funny that the defense and witness have together succeeded in throwing Murray under the bus :lol:
 
I hope every other doctor that is yet to testify will only confirm what Dr Steinberg is saying. I bet the defense will throw EXACTLY the same questions at every other doctor and see if they can get different answers.

Seeing and hearing a little bit of Steinberg's testimony + reading the updates here made me laugh out loud - for the first time since June 2009. Seriously the defense are fools! A MUPPET SHOW!
 
bouee said:
Should have called 911 immediately, tried to awake MJ (heart wound ??), give flumazenil, should have used the ambu bag. Should NOT have done CPR, because there was a pulse.

Cpr was poor quality, because MJ was on a bed. Says it would have been very easy to put MJ on the floor.
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Thank you so much! I was unable to watch the stream.

This is what I was thinking also when I read CM interview, but I was not sure. When there's a respiratory arrest, you DON'T do CPR, only mouth-to-mouth or some kind of assisted ventilation, since the reason the heart stops is because the lungs stop. I knew this from something I once read on the Internet.

So either the good doctor is really stupid, or didn't find a pulse to begin with (my money is on the latter).
 
volitional said:
Yes I loved that bit too, along with many others, too many to list. I bet the Prosecution are over the moon with Steinberg.
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Some of the 'winning' exchanges I noted from Steinberg's direct and cross exam today:

Walgren: Would the standard of care still be a direct cause of death even if the patient took more medication?
S: Yes.

F: was MJ savable when CM found him? (based on finding him pupils fixed and dilated at 12.00?..it was later pointed out by S that pupils were not fixed and dilated at 12.0)
S: CM left him alive at 11.58...it would be nice to have documentation of exactly what happened, I have to use what CM is telling me (in the interview). My report is based on those 2 minutes. ...You're asking me to pretend it was more than 2 minutes??????

S: According to the guidelines, a healthcare provider is allowed to do a short test of resuscitation before calling 911... and states this should take no more than 2 mins.
Sometime later F asks:what if it takes 2 mins to call 911? S: You should call. It takes 2 seconds to say ' I'm a Dr, come to 100 N Carolwood Drive now.'

F: Are you aware of the drug use by MJ, ie he was a habitual user of demerol? (Objection, misstates the facts)
...S: If you're saying MJ was an addict...I wouldn't be offering (propofol) to the person in the first place.

Regarding the Propofol IV and evidence for its use on the 25th June:
S:repeatedly quotes the CM interview p39 :'I've given it to him before, he handled it fine. Det Smith: 'same dose'? CM 'Dose and a drip'.

Regarding the 'use of propofol for refractory insomnia' article:
F: The fact the article was published after CM used it doesn't mean it wouldn't be a viable source of treatment.
S: (It would be) unethical and untested to use (this) as a source of data. A Society, eg a Sleep society would have to comment on the use (of Propofol) off label. It is still experimental and would need to go to an IRB(?) (Investigation Review Board?). CM was doing primary research with no overview.

F: You testified you never heard of anyone using it (Propofol) in the USA (for sleep).
S (with a smile): I should have answered 'Yes, Dr Murray'.

Edit more:

Referring to the likely effective time of 25mgs propofol bolus
F: If (the patient) sleeps beyond 4-7 minutes, sleep would not be the product of propofol...eg could be due to fatigue?
S: I would be concerned if he is still sleeping...after giving propofol you should check the patient is back to his pre-sedation level ( of consciousness).
Sometime later F: asks 'You should wake him up'? S: Yes.

F: Do you know if CM is certified for conscious sedation? S: No
F: Would it make a difference if you knew? S: No

Re. CM returning to find MJ not breathing, but with a pulse:
F: He may have been in P.E.A ?
S: There is no such thing as pulseless electrical activity with a pulse.
 
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I was amazed at Flanagan, some/most of those questions of his were just so off the mark. And Dr. Steinberg was excellent, isn't he a cardiologist as well? That gives more credibility to his answers imo, versus using a physician in an entirely different field of practice (unless of course if it were an anesthesiologist).
 
The way Conrad Murray used Propofol in his own 'experimental' way is truly disturbing. I thought it was an interesting study but as the witness said Propofol is not recommeded for sleep problems and the study happened after MJ died- and nobody died in that hospital in china as far as I know. Anyway all of the above is irrelevent since the standard of care was deviated from so recklessley that the defense can try anything they want, twist it anyway they want but Murray is going to jail and to hell in a handbasket.
 
thank you again bouee.

Ivy should use your second summary as well. For those of us unable to watch it has been priceless!
 
dmehta said:
BREAKING NEWS: Lawyers for Conrad Murray no longer contest that Michael Jackson orally ingested Propofol.

Have seen this on the scrolling banner at the bottom of the screen on both the BBC News and Sky News channels in the UK. Anyone else heard about this?

Here is a link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-15283141
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yes they told the judge before the court started this morning that "their study" did not support what they previoulsy claimed , they found no evidence oral propofol could be fatal
 
Yes, but we have that anesthesiology students article, don't we? The one where there was rampant death of anes. students from ingesting Propofol. The one from 2007. Ugh. This makes my head hurt.
 
Soundmind said:
yes they told the judge before the court started this morning that "their study" did not support what they previoulsy claimed , they found no evidence oral propofol could be fatal
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More like the prosecution witnesses debunked that, as I'm sure they would have concluded their study well before this trial started.

Looks Like Flanagan has given up on cross...what a shame.
 
I'll definitely watch it on youtube, his answers are priceless!

I never did understand why this beating around the bush happens, like yesterday with the pathology guy, there were so many "what if's" that he got confused and agreed to a bunch of stupid things, when he could of said instead "in theory, yes, but in this case, where lorazepam AND propofol were administered..." etc.

This guy sounds very to the point. "Are you asking me what if Mr Jackson was an addict? I wouldn't give it to him if he was an addict. " Great answer.
 
Walgren is going over the study in China and how they did it properly with all the equipment, in hospital, and it was only a study and just used propofol no other drugs, author of article stated further studies need to be done.
 
Each patient in the test, fasted(did not eat) for 8 Hours prior to Propofol test.

The room had all the proper monitoring equipment. i.e EKG machine etc.

People that did Test still see it as experimental.


Walgren: Is it your opinion that Murray is the direct causal effect for the Death of Michael?

Dr.Steinberg: Yes.
 
Dr Murray played a direct causal role in Michaels Death...oh hell Flannagan is back.
 
volitional said:
Walgren is going over the study in China and how they did it properly with all the equipment, in hospital, and it was only a study and just used propofol no other drugs, author of article stated further studies need to be done.
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my point exactly- go Walgren.
 
Steinberg being dismissed now. So impressed with him, what a guy!
 
DR Steinberg confirming even if Michael self-adminstered would still be Dr Murrays fault.

Next Witness Dr Nadar Kamgar is up - pulmonary and sleep expert

Doctor for 15 years, employed at UCLA, as assoc professor
 
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