Murray Trial - 12 October - Day 11 - Discussion

5) Failed to call 911 - everyone knows you should call 911, was significant delay, could have done it in the beginning but called Mr Amir and didn't even ask him to call Mr Williams to call. Paramedics were only 4 mins away instead of 20 mins delay could have gotten help in 4 mins. Have stats show for every min there is delay in calling EMS less and less chance patient will survive, every minute counts. Even if patient survives could have brain damage. Described Dr Murray's behaviour as 'bizarre' for not calling 911. Could have put phone on speaker

6) Failure to maintain proper medical proper records - three reason need it for (a) insurance (b) litigation (c) most impt - take better care of you
 
At one point, somebody asked if one deviation tantamount to one charge of IM?
If that was the case he should be found guilty 6 times over!
 
Six extreme deviations from the standard of care:

1- Propofol was not medically indicated.

2- Giving someone propofol at home without proper equipment or personnel.

3- Inadequate preparation.

4- Improper care during the arrest.

5- Not calling 911 first thing.

6- Failure to maintain proper medical records.
 
Steinberg feels that all the deviations all directly impacted the life of Michael. If those things were done properly his life could have been saved/ wouldn't have died.
 
once again I am left with the crushing thought that Michael could have been saved.

I think Michael was long gone before Murray realised, but if he had monitored him like he should Michael wouldn't have been in that position, Murray shouldn't have been giving him that damned drug.
 
Muarry had no records and was not able to tell UCLA what he gave Michael. Emergency was only 4 mins. away and Muarry wasted 20 something minutes. This is a very clear and precise witness and his evidence is damaging to Muarry.

Muarry scratched by his nose and looked at it. I wonder if he has on make up.
 
He says even if, by some ridiculous chance Michael consumed propofol or extra loraz while Murray was out of the room Murray would be responsible becuz a doctor is NEVER to leave a patient under the influence alone.

Causation has been established repeatedly. This doctor is putting all the nails in Murray's coffin. I can not believe it! He.Is.Brilliant.
 
wohoo... flanagan is doing the cross, after the break.
oh god that will be a lot of fun. haha :rofl:
 
Oh Lawd, Flanagan is going to do cross, I think. This is going to be special.

Taking a 10 minute break. Oh I bet the defense NEEDS it!!
 
flanagan wants to take the mid morning break, for 20 mins. guess he wants time to think of questioning. so far so good as far as testimony is concerned.
 
Haha, I bet the defence are going to spend the next 15 minutes desperately thinking of anything they can after everything Steinberg has said!
 
He says even if, by some ridiculous chance Michael consumed propofol or extra loraz while Murray was out of the room Murray would be responsible becuz a doctor is NEVER to leave a patient under the influence alone.

Causation has been established repeatedly. This doctor is putting all the nails in Murray's coffin. I can not believe it! He.Is.Brilliant.

I agree,,,,there will be NO WAY that Flannigan will trip him up...this guy us WAYYY to smart. Murray was looking VERY nervous..
 
I genuinely can't wait to see Flanagan attempt to question him. He's bad enough at the best of times, so with a witness as good as this it's going be interesting!
 
once again I am left with the crushing thought that Michael could have been saved.

Yeah, I know. Especially when you realize how healthy he actually was. He was in better shape than most his age. He had many many years ahead of him.
 
flanagan wants to take the mid morning break, for 20 mins. guess he wants time to think of questioning. so far so good as far as testimony is concerned.

yeah, he needs the 20 minutes to know the one question he will asking. and how he describe this question for 60 minutes.
 
I agree,,,,there will be NO WAY that Flannigan will trip him up...this guy us WAYYY to smart. Murray was looking VERY nervous..

Hey xTx... I agree, Flan will probably try to confuse the Jury...let's see how they go about their cross and if he keeps going on about those 8 loraz tablets.
 
Recap ; sorry, i can't be as fast as Elusive …

Alan Steinberg Cardiologist

as a cardiologist is not an expert in anesthesia, sleep meecine, addiction drugs
board certified = took a course and 2 days test that covers the basics of cardiology. 90% of the people who take it pass it

Has reviewed CM's resume. Cm was not board certified on june 25th 2009.

he's an expert reviewer for the California Medical Board : reviews other doctors' actions to ensure the standard of care has been respected; Extreme deviation from staard of care = gross negligence;

has conduted a review for the cali medical board in this case.

Has conduted 8 different reviews : in 4 found no deviation, in 4 other found simple deviation of care. First time he's seen an extreme deviation from standard of care.

Cardiologists use sedation for many procedure, so he's used to sedation. As a cadiologist he's an expert in mild or moderate sedation; Conscious sedation : you're still able to talk. Cardiologists are trained in moderate sedation or conscious sedation.
Deep sedation = only responsive to pain or repeated stimula. As a cariologist, not trained in deep sedation.
When Deep sedation is needed, calls anesthesiologist, because as a cardiologist he's not trained to do that.
Mild or moderate sedation : uses benzos. Deep sedation : uses propofol with an anesthesiologist.

Has reviewed this case : has focused his review based on CM interview with police : wanted to judge CM on his own words.

Found 6 seperate extreme deviation from standard of care

1 propofol was not medically indicated. Never heard of propofol used for insomnia. Using propofol for insomnia is an extreme deviation
No written informed consent : the patient must be informe of the risks and benefits

2 propofol given in a home setting, without proper equimpent and proper staff :
equipment needed : pulse oximeter with an alarm, Murray's didn't have an alarm. Automated blood pressure cuff, to check blood pressure at least every 5 mn. Murray had a manual cuff and did not use it. EKG machine. Oxygen + nasual cannula or mask, Suction in case you regurgitate into your lungs, an Ambu bag. Murray had an ambu bag but did not use it (did mouth to mouth). Have a way to call for help . Backboard : in case you need to give CPR. A back up battery in case of a black out for the equipment. Device that keeps the airway open, equipment to rescue the airway (endotracheal tube). The endotracheal tube requires trained staff.
A patient can become oversedated, where a patient goes from moderate to deep sedation.
You need a defibrilator.
Need special drugs : fluamzenil, narcan, lidocaine, betablockers, atropine, dopamine, epinephrine, prednisone, dextrose (missed one, sorry)
deep sedation : you need a trained Bls & ACLS assistant
bls = basic life support. ACLS : adanced cardiac life support.

3 inadequate preparation for an emergency : have the drugs ready, equipment ready, have a person ready to help you

4 improper care during the arrest : didn't follow proper protocol; arrest = cardiac arrest = heart stops beating. No blood pressure, the patient collapses. Call 911, use a defibrilator, and do CPR on a hard surface.
In MJ's case , it was a repiratory arrest : the oxygen goes down, the heart beats harder : this is where CM found MJ, based on CM's words. If you do nothing, the heart weakens because of lack of oxygen, and stops contracting but there is still an electrical activity. Thats PEA. After PEA, there's asystoly.
Should have called 911 immediately, tried to awake MJ (heart wound ??), give flumazenil, should have used the ambu bag. Should NOT have done CPR, because there was a pulse.

Cpr was poor quality, because MJ was on a bed. Says it would have been very easy to put MJ on the floor.

5 failing to call for help. Should have called 911 immediately. Instead called MAW, caused a further delay.
For every minute delay in calling EMS, there are less and less chances the patient will survive, and there is a risk of permanent brain damage.
Thought it was bizarre and strange to call an assistant instead of calling 911.

6 failure to maintain proper medical records. Important because of insurane companies, litigation, better health care. Dr Murray did not document anything at all. Cm was confused (or dihonest) and was not able to explain MJ's history or what he gave him to the ER doctoe or EMTs.

These extreme deviations lead to MJ's death. Without these deviation, Mj would still be alive.

Even with only 25mg propofol pthe risk of respiratory depression is still here.

Even if MJ took pills or self administered, the extreme deviations still stand and still lead to MJ's death. If MJ self administered, means that Murray was away, and that should not have happened. Compares leaving a patient under propofol to leaving a baby sleeping on he kitchen counter.
Medication should not have been within MJ's reach

End of direct exam. Recess.

Excellent witness, he did a fantastic job. I'm in love.
 
Looks like T-Mez' prediction came true. That police interview was the worst thing that the defense could had done. There's was no need for theories, it was all based on his own statement. It was brilliance, best witness so far.
 
Everytime Flanagan crosses judge stops him "Double Negative" LOl!
Today he must have be too overwhelmed by all of MJ deviations,
brains splitting
his head is exploding!
Doesn't know where to start
 
At the preliminary hearing defense sort of complained that the expert in charge of pointing out all the protocols that should have been followed was an anesthesiologist (Dr. Ruffalo) and not a cardiologist as Murray, well now they've got a cardiologist reminding them what it should have been done and was not.
 
Hey xTx... I agree, Flan will probably try to confuse the Jury...let's see how they go about their cross and if he keeps going on about those 8 loraz tablets.
hey voli....haven't talked to you in awhile... hope you are well...as well as expected right now. Flan is going to be a mess,,,he is going to confuse HIMSELF...lol.. I think this witness will do well against him. He is VERY smart,
 
Muarry had no records and was not able to tell UCLA what he gave Michael. Emergency was only 4 mins. away and Muarry wasted 20 something minutes. This is a very clear and precise witness and his evidence is damaging to Muarry.

Muarry scratched by his nose and looked at it. I wonder if he has on make up.

He KNOWS he id WRONG! Just look at his behavior, covering his face w/hands, rolling his eyes, etc. His attorney's never looked up, except Flan maybe more but I never say Chernoffs eyes at all.
 
Apparently, there was an argument in the courtroom about the drinking doctor. The DA wanted to bring him in, but the defense said that they did their own research on pigs and they decided to not use it. The judge then ask, 'didn't you say he drank this stuff in the opening?', and the defense claimed not to.

It would seemed that the defense has completely jumped shit on the drinking theory.
 
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