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Murray Trial Day 18 October 26th

Justthefacts said:
Seeing how these were Murray's witnesses and not the DA's witnesses I am going to assume you made a error
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I understand what you mean. But I was talking about that I didn't think the prosecution scored many points with the jury today in regards to the cross examination of Murray's character witnesses.
 
bluetopez said:
Murray crys when they talk nice about him ONLY! Yet, didn't shed a damn tear when they showed two pics of MJ dead. He didn't even cry about how MJs children reacted. That is sick to me.
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That is so true. I think he did cry at the opening statement that Michael was his friend. Today I feel more anger towards Murray. He helped these people but the way he treated Michael cannot be defended. He didn't take care of him.
 
Bonnie Blue said:
Does anyone know why walgren asked all the patients if they had any issues with drug dependency, as well as insomnia? Am not sure if this is the prosecution's buying into the defence's theory of mj's addiction to propofol/demoral or what. I was hoping the pros wd clear up the demoral issue and the supposed image of mj as an addict but i'm not seeing it.
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I think Walgren was pointing out that Murray (I keep typing Murrat, the T is too close to the Y on this keyboard....), well Murray, as a cardiologist, had no experience at all with anesthetics or benzodiazepines, he was not a sleep specialist at all. Yet he gave propofol and benzos to MJ, never referred him to a sleep specialist. In other words, Murray accepted to do something he was not qualified for.
 
Kingofpop4ever3000 said:
I understand what you mean. But I was talking about that I didn't think the prosecution scored many points with the jury today in regards to the cross examination of Murray's character witnesses.
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That tells me you were not paying attention because it is clear his cross went right over your head
 
marebear said:
That is so true. I think he did cry at the opening statement that Michael was his friend. Today I feel more anger towards Murray. He helped these people but the way he treated Michael cannot be defended. He didn't take care of him.
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No he cried in the opening when Chernoff was talking about his care with OTHER patients, not MJ. So yea that's why today made me more angry too because he continues to show no care for MJ in all aspects medically and emotionally. It's sick because he clealry saw MJ as $$$!
 
who wasnt there who had to be there????????? There is no media of the trial here in holland, so what is it say?

I agree with both of you, i think the delays are annoying too, but maybe pastor cant do anything more then he does already. personally i dont get it. U know patients wont take long so after 1 hour already schedule issues is bad for the defense.. they should have known better.

Is white mia? or karen? or someone else?
 
Murray Defense Bolsters Prosecution Abandonment Theme


In today’s short court session, Conrad Murray’s defense attorney Ed Chernoff called witnesses to attest to his client’s skill and dedication to his patients. In doing so, Chernoff bolstered the prosecution’s case.

As a result of today’s testimony, jurors now know that Murray and his attorneys had to hire a public relations firm to find the witnesses who came to court today to defend Murray. Additionally, prosecutors may now add the following facts to the story surrounding the homicide death of Michael Jackson:

Murray did not treat other patients for sleep disorders or drug dependence.
When treating other patients in cardiology cases that required anesthetic medications, Murray knew well enough to do so in a hospital with professionals trained in anesthesia, and a “team” to back Murray up.
Murray received a discipline letter from Sunrise Hospital in 2006 for not responding to calls and not showing up to care for patients.
Murray’s low-income patient felt “in despair” when Murray left his practice to take a “sabbatical” to care for Michael Jackson.

Today’s theme: Self-interest and resultant absenteeism appear to be longstanding trends in Murray’s practice of medicine.

http://psbar.wordpress.com/2011/10/26/murray-defense-bolsters-prosecution-abandonment-theme/
 
bouee said:
I think Walgren was pointing out that Murray (I keep typing Murrat, the T is too close to the Y on this keyboard....), well Murray, as a cardiologist, had no experience at all with anesthetics or benzodiazepines, he was not a sleep specialist at all. Yet he gave propofol and benzos to MJ, never referred him to a sleep specialist. In other words, Murray accepted to do something he was not qualified for.
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Exactly, that's the main point, he may be a good cardiologist (though I wonder about that if he was giving cpr one handed) he wasn't qualified to deal with insomnia and/or propofol and no way should he have been treating Michael.

Like Shaeffer seemed to suggest he had no idea how the drugs he was giving Michael worked and just seemed to be experimenting on him...lets see if this works, no, well lets try this one then!
 
Thing is, the judge only knows about scheduling issues when he's told about them. I think it's fair to say he's done a good job in handling the trial so far, and while delays are indeed frustrating, they sometimes just can't be helped.
 
ivy;3521029 said:
Murray Defense Bolsters Prosecution Abandonment Theme


In today’s short court session, Conrad Murray’s defense attorney Ed Chernoff called witnesses to attest to his client’s skill and dedication to his patients. In doing so, Chernoff bolstered the prosecution’s case.

As a result of today’s testimony, jurors now know that Murray and his attorneys had to hire a public relations firm to find the witnesses who came to court today to defend Murray. Additionally, prosecutors may now add the following facts to the story surrounding the homicide death of Michael Jackson:

Murray did not treat other patients for sleep disorders or drug dependence.
When treating other patients in cardiology cases that required anesthetic medications, Murray knew well enough to do so in a hospital with professionals trained in anesthesia, and a “team” to back Murray up.
Murray received a discipline letter from Sunrise Hospital in 2006 for not responding to calls and not showing up to care for patients.
Murray’s low-income patient felt “in despair” when Murray left his practice to take a “sabbatical” to care for Michael Jackson.

Today’s theme: Self-interest and resultant absenteeism appear to be longstanding trends in Murray’s practice of medicine.

http://psbar.wordpress.com/2011/10/26/murray-defense-bolsters-prosecution-abandonment-theme/
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Thanks, Ivy. That seems pretty accurate, with points for the prosecution. Amazingly, Walgren was able to introduce material about the "disciplinary letter" Murray had received. Of course, the witness knew nothing about it, but the point was, that Walgren was able to inform the jury. The issue for which Murray was disciplined, seemed to be "patient abandonment."

Also, there was mention of friendships formed with Murray. The prosecution witnesses have emphasized that a "friendship" relationship is not professional and blurs the boundaries. I hope Walgren goes after this in the summation.

I really didn't see any defense points scored today, at all.
 
ivy;3521029 said:
Murray Defense Bolsters Prosecution Abandonment Theme


In today’s short court session, Conrad Murray’s defense attorney Ed Chernoff called witnesses to attest to his client’s skill and dedication to his patients. In doing so, Chernoff bolstered the prosecution’s case.

As a result of today’s testimony, jurors now know that Murray and his attorneys had to hire a public relations firm to find the witnesses who came to court today to defend Murray. Additionally, prosecutors may now add the following facts to the story surrounding the homicide death of Michael Jackson:

Murray did not treat other patients for sleep disorders or drug dependence.
When treating other patients in cardiology cases that required anesthetic medications, Murray knew well enough to do so in a hospital with professionals trained in anesthesia, and a “team” to back Murray up.
Murray received a discipline letter from Sunrise Hospital in 2006 for not responding to calls and not showing up to care for patients.
Murray’s low-income patient felt “in despair” when Murray left his practice to take a “sabbatical” to care for Michael Jackson.

Today’s theme: Self-interest and resultant absenteeism appear to be longstanding trends in Murray’s practice of medicine.

http://psbar.wordpress.com/2011/10/26/murray-defense-bolsters-prosecution-abandonment-theme/
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Murray has a history of abandonment...he gets the letter of reprimand in 2006,from this hospital. how I wish Michael was aware of Murray's issue, He would NEVER of trusted him.
 
Kingofpop4ever3000 said:
I apparently just took things differently then you did. I guess I'm not very smart when it comes to court matters. But I just stated what was my personal opinion. That's all.
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Unless we're used to it, we're all beginners in those matters. And sometimes things fly over our heads. I know I heard a few wings over mine here and there. That's why it's important to be able to count on others to explain what we dont get. :)

Maybe if you read back some of the comments, you'll see better. Walgren did make a few good points today.
 
To quote Tom Mesereau, "a trial is not over until it's over." He also said we cannot "score" a trial like we score a basketball game. There is no such thing as prosecutor 3, defense 0. It's not a game. The jury sees more than we do. The jury is there everyday, they see the demeanor of the witnesses and the defendant. They see the whole picture. We think we know everything about the trial because we follow the live stream and updates. The truth is we still miss things.

So, we have a short day today. The jury may leave with an impression that Conrad Murray is not a reckless monster. He did take good care of his patients. However, the jury was also in the court for 18 days. The testimonies in the past 17 days are still vivid in their minds. It's their job to consider every piece of evidence admitted and come up with a verdict after the end of trial.
 
xthunderx2 said:
dear these witness are historical...they ment well and imo...they are under the impression that they are doing a good thing, Here they are people with no medical and Murray steps in and gives them the care that they need ...so of course they are gonna think that he is a super duper doc. To bad he didnt give that same care to Michael. Michael's care was not gonna be free,,,and Murray messed that up. So for that witness to say that Murray was not greedy,,,that is a bad statement for that witness to give.
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I agree with you and add to that, Murray left them then asked for $5000000. Suppose he had gotten that amount I highly doubt he would ever have gone back to his beloved patients.
 
ivy;3521029 said:
Murray Defense Bolsters Prosecution Abandonment Theme


In today’s short court session, Conrad Murray’s defense attorney Ed Chernoff called witnesses to attest to his client’s skill and dedication to his patients. In doing so, Chernoff bolstered the prosecution’s case.

As a result of today’s testimony, jurors now know that Murray and his attorneys had to hire a public relations firm to find the witnesses who came to court today to defend Murray. Additionally, prosecutors may now add the following facts to the story surrounding the homicide death of Michael Jackson:

Murray did not treat other patients for sleep disorders or drug dependence.
When treating other patients in cardiology cases that required anesthetic medications, Murray knew well enough to do so in a hospital with professionals trained in anesthesia, and a “team” to back Murray up.
Murray received a discipline letter from Sunrise Hospital in 2006 for not responding to calls and not showing up to care for patients.
Murray’s low-income patient felt “in despair” when Murray left his practice to take a “sabbatical” to care for Michael Jackson.

Today’s theme: Self-interest and resultant absenteeism appear to be longstanding trends in Murray’s practice of medicine.

http://psbar.wordpress.com/2011/10/26/murray-defense-bolsters-prosecution-abandonment-theme/
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thx ivy. I missed the part where they said they had to hire a public relations firm to find the witnesses who came to court today??? When was that?
PS: did you had my pms? Hope you can answer..

thx for the wonderfull updates ivy, and elusive too
 
interesting info about the p.r. firm. Serial killers are often nice to their mothers aren't they? Murray obviously likes abandoning people and has been doing so all his life. Thanks for the updates guys.
 
xthunderx2 said:
dear these witness are historical...they ment well and imo...they are under the impression that they are doing a good thing, Here they are people with no medical and Murray steps in and gives them the care that they need ...so of course they are gonna think that he is a super duper doc. To bad he didnt give that same care to Michael. Michael's care was not gonna be free,,,and Murray messed that up. So for that witness to say that Murray was not greedy,,,that is a bad statement for that witness to give.
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Also, if I remember correctly, one of the first excuses (which I personally do not believe), that we heard for why Murray gave Michael the propofol was that Murray needed the money badly and that he would lose his job with Michael if he didn't give him the propofol. So it still shouldn't matter what these people said to defend Murray. They were not at Michael's house to see what happened to Michael on the day he died. This is all just my opinion.
 
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i have been watching every day and while it may be a fact that murray isn't a moster (don't think that is what prosecutors are aiming to prove) he still hid important facts that could save Michael. he may care about all other patients and fact is if he didn't MJ wouldn't let him treat the children. BUT come one, HE JUST DID NOT CARE ENOUGH ABOUT MICHAEL JACKSON! i don't care how difficult, boneheaded and suborn MJ was murray should have said NO! and he should have CALLED 911 ASAP! he should have monitored MJ properly! he may be a saint BUT so what?

another thing about him crying. he never shed a tear for MJ in that court room. not even when he was talking about the children in his police interview. and he did say MJ was inhuman. and let's face it if Michael was acting like murray have in court the media would eat him up. but now from what i hear media is soften towards him because he cried!
 
I just worry because it was Michael that Murray will get a free pass. I think general public would be angrier if Murray acted this way towards a poor person or not as a rich. Everyone should get the same care whether you have money or not. I don't want the jury to hold Michael's celebrity against him.
 
maral said:
he did say MJ was inhuman.
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When did he say that?

By the way, I agree that it was sickening hearing the defence witnesses today saying what superb care they got from him, knowing his criminal negligence and complete lack of care regarding MJ. I wonder why he didn't think MJ merited the same level of care he gave to his other patients?
 
Ramona122003 said:
The court isn't allow to talk about Murray's financial troubles.
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Yeah, which made Chernoff's obvious frustrations about not being able to get into MJ's finances with Randy Phillips over the top and unreasonable. He actually seemed pissed, but if MJ was fair game in that department, his client would have been too, and Murray would have come off a lot worse than MJ did.
 
I don't believe that Michael was angry that she cancelled appointment because her kid was ill.We all know how much he loved kids.I really can't imagine him being angry because of that.
 
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marebear said:
I just worry because it was Michael that Murray will get a free pass. I think general public would be angrier if Murray acted this way towards a poor person or not as a rich. Everyone should get the same care whether you have money or not. I don't want the jury to hold Michael's celebrity against him.
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I agree. In my opinion, if a fully-grown medical professional with over twenty years worth of medical experience can have a lapse in ethical judgement, show a tragic failure to meet the utmost principals for the standard of proper medical care and then simply blame his dead celebrity patient for everything and walk out of court facing no jail time, then I personally do not believe that there is any reason for me to think that justice will prevail for Michael. I seriously hope I'm wrong. But time will tell.
 
Walgren was as cautious as he could with these character witnesses- he could have dug in mercilessly and paraded them around , especially senior citizens with that generational 'he's the Doctor!!" type mentality. Good thing he didn't and still managed to get to the point- and even introduce 'damage' like that letter of reprimand- surprised he got away with that, is the defense asleep at the wheel? Geez.

Seems like Murray knows exactly when to play up the "I'm so concerned about" you card. Untrained personnel in his office and the next person hears that the stress test might be too much in an office environment. Interesting difference in standard of care.

I also wished that someone would explain that senior citizens on medicare are by NO MEANS a verdict of bankruptcy.
Seriously???? I could point you to COUNTLESS medical practices in so called working poor environments. A lot of practices are very happy about self-pay patients whom they let pay upfront. I'm about to cry, really. *sarcasm* The fact that he can afford 2 practices tells you that taking care of the working class by no means indicates an automated death sentence financially. I actually don't know many Doctors in an employee status that can afford working for free for several months.

Also... there is a generation of seniors that has worked at a time when pensions and the like were much more generous- especially in union negotiated retirement surroundings. That's his market. Not 20 year olds working 2 jobs. Don't let the fact that these are largely older people fool you. Many of today's working poor and many seniors can unfortunately only dream of lifelong healthcare after retirement. (so please don't misunderstand me)
It's difficult to generalize but as an Office Manager I have seen a lot of people in traditional labor jobs with better healthcare insurance then those who graduated college and in current academic environments. Once upon a time working retail still meant access to healthcare insurance, much different currently.
Murray certainly didn't work for free, if people buy that then I'd like to propose selling them an awesome bridge in China. Don't think he was placing stent after stent for free, lol. And don't think hospitals do things for free, either.

And all the follow-up maintenance in heart care related issue. Repeated follow ups are LOVED in the right medical field, since you can squeeze maximum charge out of people with a minimum of effort. Especially in a 'scary' field such a cardiology. OF COURSE he'd have loooooots of follow up visits- if things go well you spent half the effort- or let your untrained people take care of that- and still charge for an exam. Murray always finds someone who do it for him- 7 children later and volunteers in his practice.

I thought my head would explode when I heard "he helped to obtain the medication" ("that he prescribed"). I'm sure he did, obtaining medication seems another specialty. Especially when it's so called "maintenance medication" (that's what insurance companies call regularly taken medication such as iron supplements, high blood pressure medication etc)- it keeps your patient flow steady since by law a patient has to be seen regularly to be able to prescribe them. Sounds familiar, doesn't it? Prescribing cholesterol medication is a gold mine. Even if you sent your patient to a lab to do the lab work- you can always have a patient make an appointment to 'discuss the results', lol, since you can charge for that.

Put that in contrast with Michael and his exceptionally clear status of no build up in his arteries. I wonder just how many Doctors tried taking Michael for a ride by trying to keep him by their side.

I'm not trying to take away from those who are being helped by honest Doctors- but unfortunately he's not in court because of outstanding care, but because his patient died a completely senseless death.

Edit: They are a lot of "Murrays" out there in the world- but only one Michael- and they know exactly how to slide through life while everyone else fixes their messes. Murray is an expert in that. 7 children and untrained volunteers later. They know exactly to pick those who they will either use, abuse, drop, or discard when they are no longer needed.
And they know how to get by- until they really mess up. Let's hope Murray will never ever have a chance to fool one more person
 
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Listen, Michael was not a fool. He lived in a cruel world since he was a baby and had his heart broken many, many times for being so trusting. It is my belief that he was no longer naive and that he knew what Murray was all about. We don't. Either Murray had (has) a genuine concern for his patients and Michael knew that or Murray is a heartless bastard and Michael knew that but didn't care.

Either way, it's irrelevant. The relevant thing is that Murray did not act in his patient's best interest, which resulted in the patient's death.
 
RedMaryFlint said:
Yes. And if everyone ascribed to that version of morality, Ted Kaczynski would still be out there bombing people. His brother recognized that strangers' lives have value too. Support for a loved one does not constitute defending them mindlessly no matter what they do, but in guiding them back toward the right path when they depart from it.
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^^I loved this. Thanks very much. These are words to live by.
 
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