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Murray Trial Day 18 October 26th

Pace said:
Walgren was as cautious as he could with these character witnesses- he could have dug in mercilessly and paraded them around , especially senior citizens with that generational 'he's the Doctor!!" type mentality. Good thing he didn't and still managed to get to the point- and even introduce 'damage' like that letter of reprimand- surprised he got away with that, is the defense asleep at the wheel? Geez.

Seems like Murray knows exactly when to play up the "I'm so concerned about" you card. Untrained personnel in his office and the next person hears that the stress test might be too much in an office environment. Interesting difference in standard of care.

I also wished that someone would explain that senior citizens on medicare are by NO MEANS a verdict of bankruptcy.
Seriously???? I could point you to COUNTLESS medical practices in so called working poor environments. A lot of practices are very happy about self-pay patients whom they let pay upfront. I'm about to cry, really. *sarcasm* The fact that he can afford 2 practices tells you that taking care of the working class by no means indicates an automated death sentence financially. I actually don't know many Doctors in an employee status that can afford working for free for several months.

Also... there is a generation of seniors that has worked at a time when pensions and the like were much more generous- especially in union negotiated retirement surroundings. That's his market. Not 20 year olds working 2 jobs. Don't let the fact that these are largely older people fool you. Many of today's working poor and many seniors can unfortunately only dream of lifelong healthcare after retirement. (so please don't misunderstand me)
It's difficult to generalize but as an Office Manager I have seen a lot of people in traditional labor jobs with better healthcare insurance then those who graduated college and in current academic environments. Once upon a time working retail still meant access to healthcare insurance, much different currently.
Murray certainly didn't work for free, if people buy that then I'd like to propose selling them an awesome bridge in China. Don't think he was placing stent after stent for free, lol. And don't think hospitals do things for free, either.

And all the follow-up maintenance in heart care related issue. Repeated follow ups are LOVED in the right medical field, since you can squeeze maximum charge out of people with a minimum of effort. Especially in a 'scary' field such a cardiology. OF COURSE he'd have loooooots of follow up visits- if things go well you spent half the effort- or let your untrained people take care of that- and still charge for an exam. Murray always finds someone who do it for him- 7 children later and volunteers in his practice.

I thought my head would explode when I heard "he helped to obtain the medication" ("that he prescribed"). I'm sure he did, obtaining medication seems another specialty. Especially when it's so called "maintenance medication" (that's what insurance companies call regularly taken medication such as iron supplements, high blood pressure medication etc)- it keeps your patient flow steady since by law a patient has to be seen regularly to be able to prescribe them. Sounds familiar, doesn't it? Prescribing cholesterol medication is a gold mine. Even if you sent your patient to a lab to do the lab work- you can always have a patient make an appointment to 'discuss the results', lol, since you can charge for that.

Put that in contrast with Michael and his exceptionally clear status of no build up in his arteries. I wonder just how many Doctors tried taking Michael for a ride by trying to keep him by their side.

I'm not trying to take away from those who are being helped by honest Doctors- but unfortunately he's not in court because of outstanding care, but because his patient died a completely senseless death.

Edit: They are a lot of "Murrays" out there in the world- but only one Michael- and they know exactly how to slide through life while everyone else fixes their messes. Murray is an expert in that. 7 children and untrained volunteers later. They know exactly to pick those who they will either use, abuse, drop, or discard when they are no longer needed.
And they know how to get by- until they really mess up. Let's hope Murray will never ever have a chance to fool one more person
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I love this post, You have it in the bag nicely, thank you I have nothing to add.
Actually I do, It's not unusual for elderly patient's to remember a doctor in their will.
 
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Granny said that muarry is not greedy and that he worked in this poor area where he got less money than he could make elsewhere. However, it was mentioned that one of the reasons Muarry was there was because he made a promised to his dad, so making it seem he simply worked in a low income area out of pure love to help the poor is misleading.

How is it that a PR firm was needed to find the witnesses. You mean to tell me a doctor with several patients could not find 3 people to vouch for his character without the help of a PR firm? This does not say much for Muarry.
 
Ingelief said:
To me its BS that there AGAIN schedule issues. They knew it was short with the patients.. they brought everybody to court for only 1 hour! What a cost of money for nothing!

how stupid is this!! So many delays already..

who fault was this?!
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Courts in the US have a tendency to move at a snails pace. Nothing we can do about it.
 
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Creative billing does not take a lot of imagination. There are different exam types you can bill, depending on 'comprehensive' etc.
Granted, billing Medicare is a nightmare- but so are Blue Cross, Cigna and others. But you have billing departments for that, so it's not as if Murray is sweating his nights away over that stuff.

In fairness, it's impossible to say who pads bills how- since that is so extremely wide spread- but the fact that not even nurses were doing follow up care- says a lot. Because I bet you that every single time someone got the pressure cuffs on their legs- someone got charged.

It's difficult to motivate people to come by for a follow up with their contacts- because you check the fit and don't make much money. In a cardiology office people feel differently, it's their heart- so you automatically have different compliance behaviors.
And treating a largely overweight 50+ population is a cardiologist's dream...
 
Kingofpop4ever3000 said:
I understand what you mean. But I was talking about that I didn't think the prosecution scored many points with the jury today in regards to the cross examination of Murray's character witnesses.
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They scored many points.did u watch it? if so i fail to see how u can come to that conclusion
 
Walgreen scored many points by not acting as if he's pulling a Chernoff. "You do know what toilets are being used for, do you???" (Chernoff said that to Elissa Fleak)
I'm not sure Brazil would have had the necessary gloves for that. Walgreen did well. He's got the 'good son in law' aura. Sure, he ticked off the old lady by asking if she met Murray's lady friends, lest nobody forget that other patients apparently did meet his Lady friends. Brilliant.

And Chernoff just scares people by trying to sound compassionate, lol.

If I were the son/daughter of one of these people, I would be extremely miffed at Chernoff and Flanagan for using using my parents that way. Think about the beagles. Anything goes.
It felt like someone's taking advantage of them, but I can't help but wonder if some were motivated to testify by their dislike for Michael (financial perks aside).
 
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Autumn II said:
Murray is probably being paid a LOT by Medicare, and padding the bills generously?
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His three mill $ house throwing money at his girlfriends. he seemed to make a nice amount of money off these poor ppli also like today how walgren asked the witness about the great care he got from murray and when he was at the hospital.and said dont u agree that all paitents should be afforded the same care u got? the answer was yes but with a but and walgren cut him offhopefulky in rebuttal we might see the family of the other paitent he killed. seeing as he never even spoke to them after they died
 
Pace said:
Walgreen scored many points by not acting as if he's pulling a Chernoff. "You do know what toilets are being used for, do you???" (Chernoff said that to Elissa Fleak)I'm not sure Brazil would have had the necessary gloves for that. Walgreen did well. He's got the 'good son in law' aura. Sure, he ticked off the old lady by asking if she met Murray's lady friends, lest nobody forget that other patients apparently did meet his Lady friends. Brilliant. And Chernoff just scares people by trying to sound compassionate, lol. If I were the son/daughter of one of these people, I would be extremely miffed at Chernoff and Flanagan for using using my parents that way. Think about the beagles. Anything goes.It felt like someone's taking advantage of them, but I can't help but wonder if some were motivated to testify by their dislike for Michael (financial perks aside).
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yeah well said. these ppl are obviously blinded and are to stupid to reakise they are being used. and stupid for answering they would defend murray no matter what. alot of ppl think drs are gods and can do no wrong. i guess the believe in the tooth fairy aswell
 
You do know what toilets are being used for, do you???" (Chernoff said that to Elissa Fleak)
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Chernoff asked a witness that question?.......oh dear god :doh: :lol:
 
Part of me wonders if Chernoff is being such piece of work because he largely practices elsewhere and therefore has less of a motivation to maintain a more even keeled 'working relationship' with this particular judge.
Maybe that's one of the reason they let Flanagan do the major damage up until recently. Doesn't Flanagan practice in Glendale? That means he's probably seeing Judge Pastor more often. Wonder if they let Chernoff do the last parts now since Chernoff will be dealing less with Pastor in the future than say, Flanagan. Flanagan has potential future clients to lose if things get extremely unpleasant- since every judge remembers certain attorneys which can bode well or unwell for an attorney's client.
 
I think hes an arsehole where ever he works. i bet walgren abd brazil will be glad when he leaves. the looks on their faces at times when hes been pulling his crap
 
^^His arrogance makes him think he is winning big with this case, so he is rude to the witnesses. He even tried to cross examine his own witness (Lee) when she did not say what he wanted. Someone should tell the defense to speak to their witnesses before hand so they know what to ask them. Some of the questioning seemed like a fishing expedition or made me think that the defense did not know what to ask or how to approach their own witnesses. Well I can't complain--their incompetence worked in my favor.

Something else I noticed was that the areas that the judge ruled that the defense could not enter, they asked questions several times which were objected to and sustained. Now usually a judge would warn the attorney that this is the last warning or words to that effect, which did not happen in this case. However, I noticed the defense kept trying to sneak these questions in. They are lucky the judge did not deal with them more harshly.
 
Thats because they are hostile witnesses and prob wont have spoken to the defence at all. thats why chernoff ended up basically crossing them on redirect
 
The only thing about this case that bothers me is that lack of tubing. I mean that tubing not being found is reasonable doubt am I right?
 
Justthefacts said:
The only thing about this case that bothers me is that lack of tubing. I mean that tubing not being found is reasonable doubt am I right?
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According the lawyers on In Session, the lack of tubing is really reasonable doubt because Murray admitted to given an infusion for the entire period except for the 24 and 25. So, an infusion tube had to be use, even though one hasn't been found.

They also pointed out because of the charge of manslaughter Murray can still be convicted even if there was a chance Michael self-injected because he brought the drugs into the house and fully admitted on his own interview that Michael was capable of self-injecting himself.
 
Ramona122003 said:
According the lawyers on In Session, the lack of tubing is really reasonable doubt because Murray admitted to given an infusion for the entire period except for the 24 and 25. So, an infusion tube had to be use, even though one hasn't been found.
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It's interesting that they haven't been able to find the infusion tubing that was used. If Murray was saying that he used the infusion, then something isn't right since they haven't found the tubing. This is just my opinion.
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Kingofpop4ever3000 said:
Ramona122003 said:
According the lawyers on In Session, the lack of tubing is really reasonable doubt because Murray admitted to given an infusion for the entire period except for the 24 and 25. So, an infusion tube had to be use, even though one hasn't been found.
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It's interesting that they haven't been able to find the infusion tubing that was used. If Murray was saying that he used the infusion, then something isn't right since they haven't found the tubing. This is just my opinion.
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It most likely walked with him, but the DA can't really prove it. They just know he had to have one at some point since he admitted to an infusion in his own interview. The fact that not one was found is actually a big red flag, but the DA doesn't really have to theorize what happened to it because this isn't a murder 2 case.

On another note, even if they can't find the infusion the DA can make a good case on Murray hiding evident. Not only do we have AA testimony, but we also had the fact that Murray ordered all this propofol, but the LAPD were unable to find all his orders. What happened to them and how did they all just disappear. The only reason they know Murray ordered so much was because of the sell receipts.
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I am a little confused about this addiction expert. How can offer his opinion on Michael when Conrad never kept records and two he never treated Michael. IMO which is not worth much all he can say is what an addict does I will be very surprised if he can offer his opinion on what caused Michael's insomnia because one he was not Michael's doctor and two Murray who was Michael's doctor never kept records. And how can you say demerol caused Michael's insomnia when Murray knew as far back as 06 Michael had insomnia and Dr Metzger said Michael had insomnia for years.
 
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See I thought the same thing about Jeff Ashton and you see what happened there
 
and as to your questions: the term is "reasonable" doubt , it's not "without a doubt"

sure the tubing not being found is a negative aspect but is it really a "reasonable" doubt?

Drinking Propofol is out, prosecution proved it , defense dropped it.
Injection of Propofol , according to prosecution won't cause the numbers in blood. we are yet to hear defense's explanation. but there are no fingerprints of MJ on any vials or syringes.
Lorazepam in stomach is minimal according to both tests. we will see what defense will say about it.

you have 3 witnesses - not only Alberto Alvarez and paramedics that saw Murray collecting vials

so if you are left with "MJ couldn't have done it", isn't it reasonable to think that Murray did it even if you might not know exactly how?

Plus even if you think MJ self administered you are still left with the question of how did that happen? well because Murray left him alone and wasn't there to stop and or save him?

remember walgren's analogy ? Imagine a drunken driver listening to music and hitting a pedestrian who was also not paying attention as he walked into the street.
 
yeah Murray kept no records, how can this expert give an assessment of MJ's health when he has no records on him and has never evaluated him?
 
elusive moonwalker said:
I think hes an arsehole where ever he works. i bet walgren abd brazil will be glad when he leaves. the looks on their faces at times when hes been pulling his crap
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I can tell not even Flanagan likes him. It's a bad thing when your defence team is divided. It was reported that they had some sort of argument (dunno if that's true) but even if those reports turned out to be false (haven't really been too keen on things lately--had to miss a lot of stuff due to class=fail =/), you can just tell from their demeanour towards each other that they do not exactly get along. They don't give off the same sort of air as Walgren/Brazil.

I think Chernoff sees this as his "chance" to at least make an appearance, since it is clear he wants to dominate the courtroom with his arrogant asshole attitude. He's been overwhelmingly rude to a lot of the witnesses, even those on his own defence list, it wouldn't surprise me if this rudeness extended itself towards the other two lawyers he collaborates with too. However, he's been markedly decent towards Murray (noticed he touched his shoulder at some point during the trial when Murray looked kind of upset :puke:).

But yeah, watching Chernoff attempting to be compassionate is rather disturbing. I honestly think he's not capable of it.

Yes, Flanagan practices in Glendale, and he would have a lot more at stake, however--he is also the only lawyer in the area to have won a wrongful death case involving propofol, and I think that will speak more for him than anything that happens regarding this specific trial only because they literally have nothing at all to work with in this case. Murray's negligence was so great they literally are going on a limb. It's a bit pathetic to watch, really, and both Chernoff and Flanagan have good credentials and (in Flanagan's case) pretty good peer ratings.

But, like they say, divide and conquer. I don't think the defence talk to each other much. They don't really seem on the same page, like Walgren and Brazil. That's just my impression, for all it's worth. Might be wrong. =/

But, today, watching Murray break down and cry and seeing Flanagan looking annoyed at him/ignoring him was pretty amusing, I will admit!!
 
The iv tubing was vented when before they thought it wasnt. so it was said earlier that there may not have been anything missing. that he flushed the tube out?

also you have testimony of murray hiding drugs etc. so its very easy to believe he either took or hid that i.v line aswell. i think as shaffer said just cause it wasnt found doesnt mean it wasnt in the house. espescially when you have someone as slack as fleak involved

re reasonable doubt cause of the tubing. murray is on trial for causing a death by negligence. hes not on trial persay for using a drip. the main part of the case to me has been all those violations of standard of care and did those violations significantly contribute to a death. that is the legal
definition as to whether he should be found guilty or not.and at this time the defence have done nothing to challenge those violations




re that lack of tubing being reasobable doubt.
 
I also found it vomit inducing and to an extent disturbing yesterday how one of the witnesses described murray as his best friend. either it way over the top play acting or it shows that murray doesnt know how to have a paitent/dr relationship. like shaffer who mentioned it was a employer/employee
relationship between mj and murray. regardless of the type of relationship it was between murray and this witness it was disturbing. and supported randys testimony of how trusting mj was of murray.
 
Justthefacts said:
I am a little confused about this addiction expert. How can offer his opinion on Michael when Conrad never kept records and two he never treated Michael. IMO which is not worth much all he can say is what an addict does I will be very surprised if he can offer his opinion on what caused Michael's insomnia because one he was not Michael's doctor and two Murray who was Michael's doctor never kept records. And how can you say demerol caused Michael's insomnia when Murray knew as far back as 06 Michael had insomnia and Dr Metzger said Michael had insomnia for years.
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the have kliens records. chernoff said the other day about mj going through a quick and unsafe detox from demoral and how that contributed to the reaction to the dip. how it can put pressure on the heart. this new witness is an expert in safe forms of detox. so that is defence theory number 12456
 
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