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Murray Trial - Day 19 - October 27 2011 - Discussion

theyve found shaffer graph loraz levels show subject to pain and not. he says that doesnt matter as its not a painkiller blood concentrations that may have been created from two 2 mg doses think he said thats shaffer theory but mj might have been different. like what he said earlier about models not being 100%. its all about descrediting the models and saying they arent 100% which then will be used to try and dicredit shaffers theories on concentration levels only being reachable by IV

end of the day judge asks to see council
 
How unprepared is Flanagan? Is a point to all of this in our near future?
 
OnirMJ said:
It doesn't matter how large the dose was, injected by Murray or self injected - propofol levels in blood drops very quickly. So only possible scenario is a drip. Because after someone stops breathing (and that happened here according to coroner report, autopsy and dr. Murray interview) your heart still beat for at least 10 minutes, enough to propofol level drop low.
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the defence have implied that they may impeach thier own witness and say there was no pulse he was already gone as they did in opening statements. so thats the excuse for the the high level
 
Repeat of what i said on the last page: Dr White sounds bitter. He comes across as a bit sly. When they kept calling him Shaffer instead of White, he was quick to say how "it was a compliment", i.e. he was trying to come across as not holding any kind of grudge against Dr Schaffer when in reality his testimony shows he does hold some sort of grudge and sounds bitter.

Cross-examination of Dr White is going to be crucial, and I expect Walgren to painstakingly go through the evidence in this case. He is also likely to call back Schaffer in the rebuttal.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
the defence have implied that they may impeach thier own witness and say there was no pulse he was already gone as they did in opening statements. so thats the excuse for the the high level
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That's their only hope since although the drug levels could had been different and argue over, but the propofol would do a rapid drop regardless. This is a win/win situation for the DA since they can beat the fact that Murray lied about Michael being alive or not over Murray's head during the closing.

I also think the DA has to honestly ask White if Murray is still responsible regardless if Michael self-injected. As a person who work with propofol, I can't see how he can excuse Murray for leaving the room for any length of time.
 
Dr White

Flanagan

most centrally active drugs have the same variabilty, for example lorazepam

shows a paper about a study , about lorazepam and midazolam in ICU .
During the day lower dose for anxiolitic effect ,at night increased dose for sleep

shows graph (blood levels or effects, i'm not sure) to show again variability : model is a line, scattered spots are patients , the spots are everywhere around the line

propofol = sedative hypnotic : low dose = sleepiness, reduces anxiety, medium dose = deeper sedation, higher dose = not responsive to pain = anesthesia, produces amnesia at anesthetic level

benzos have the same variability , can produce amnesia

analgesic = blocks pain

propofol can be used for different levels of sedation

MAC : monitored anesthesia care . Subhypnotic , lower sedation than anesthesia

propofol can be used for different levels of sedation from reduction of anxiety to general anesthesia

propofol is a very controllable drug

Did a study about propofol for MAC sedation, but the company was not interested because propofol was meant to replace anesthetic, but got a grant to study it, before it was FDA approved.

In 1992 Astra Zeneca did a new insert for propofol for MAC sedation, provided data that Dr Shafer analysed for the Astra Zenaca inserts

Off label use (o use a drug for other effects) : off label is not FDA approved, on label FDA approved,

is propofol for sleep off label ? : sleep in a ICU is on label, sleep at home is off label

Chinese study : very interesting. Agrees the outcome is very interesting, it helped people with chronic refractory insomia, authors should be given a chance to be reviewed , and respond to crticism.

A paper used by dr Shafer, the one about apnea and anesthesia was rejected by the society of anesthesiology an anelgesia. Another paper used by Dr Shafer in this case was also rejected.

Has read the toxicology report.

Polypharmacy : combining drugs : reducing the side effects by combining lower doses of drugs. Example : pain mangament : mixing opiates and non opiates to reduce opiates side effects

polypharmacy : is good medecine if done properly . Ex midazolam + propofol is a standard technique.

Showing a graph done by Dr Shafer , Walgren objects : it' not the same graph, defense wants to put it into evidence , Walgren objects to new evidence, Flanagan pulls a previously indentified graph the defence. (I haven't seen the first one, so I don't know if it's the same as the one Flanagan eventuly shows)

Dr Shafer's graph : 2X2mg (2 am 5 am) orazepam, with the non responsive to pain levels. Says lorazepam is not an anlgesic, doesn't understand this line.


recess until tomorow 8 45
 
Do you think the jury will take that first witness seriously after the way he acted and the way those charts were all wrong? He sounded really bad after reading here what happened.
 
And so, this day shuffles to a close -- literally -- when Flanzepam-o-rama can't find the papers he was looking for. TEDIOUS. I can't see any points were made by the defense at all, and that INCORRECT chart looked pretty sad once Walgren finished scratching things out?
 
OMG!
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This trial is killing us all. :(
 
Dr. Klein Attorney said on JVM show on HLN that MJ recieved demoral because some people are needle phobic or sentitive to pain. He says that getting injections in ur lips and eyes would be the reason a sedative would be used. He also pointed out that the doses got less with each visit and their are gaps inbetween the visits. He also mentions that Klein was absent in The month of April (I think) so it was another doc who gave MJ demoral on those visits. And that Klein was already investigated and was not charge. That MJ didn't die of demoral but, of Propofol by Murray!

But, ofcourse HLN brang in others to refute what this lawyer just said after he left!
 
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marebear said:
Do you think the jury will take that first witness seriously after the way he acted and the way those charts were all wrong? He sounded really bad after reading here what happened.
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That expert was severally tainted and the DA get a good job exposing him for his bias. He claim that Michael was an addict more or less on media reports. He most likely concluded that Michael's strange personality and eccentrics were caused by addiction. Not to mention all the family members and their friends with their intervention stories and talk of denial. But, he had no knowledge that Murray was given a suppose addict/depended a highly addictive sleep medication that also had similar efforts as opiate withdraws. He didn't even look at Murray's police statement.

I still want someone to explain why an addict/depended would go to a doctor office for the drug fix where everything they take is documented instead of getting a prescription and taking at the comforts of their house like million of other addicts. Especially Michael with paps and fans following his every move.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
yeah thats what im thinking aswell. so lets say murray only gave 25mg and nothing else. and that means mj didnt self inject yet they got high readings. so in one sense they are descrediting their own theory of slef injection. although the problem u have then is the prosecutions claims of an IV being used. and this theory would discredit that. so the defence think if they can discredit the drip as there is another way for those high levels then it ruins a key part of the pros case. and white can say mj still could have self injected because the concentration levels arent as fixed as shaffer says
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Dr White also said that if Murray gave what he said he gave in his police interview, it should not have killed Michael. I think that so far he has mostly been trying to discredit Dr Shafer.

One thing I noticed is the last thing he said , about the non responsive to pain line, he said he didn't understand it because lorazepam is not ab abalgesic. I thought that was suspicious since Dr White himself described the resonse to pain as a criteria to measure the level of sedation. Made him sound to me like he was trying anything to discredit Dr Shafer , and that remark about spelling.... so uncalled for
 
elusive moonwalker said:
the defence have implied that they may impeach thier own witness and say there was no pulse he was already gone as they did in opening statements. so thats the excuse for the the high level
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That is quite a massive impeachment. Surely a doctor esp a cardiologist would know if someone is dead or not. Murray was still pretending to find a pulse at 12.45ish wasn't he with the paramedics. That's the problem the defence have - coming up with these theories and then trying to get the facts (and murray's interview) to support them.
 
Ramona122003 said:
That expert was severally tainted and the DA get a good job exposing him for his bias. He claim that Michael was an addict more or less on media reports. He most likely concluded that Michael's strange personality and eccentrics were caused by addiction. Not to mention all the family members and their friends with their intervention stories and talk of denial. But, he had no knowledge that Murray was given a suppose addict/depended a highly addictive sleep medication that also had similar efforts as opiate withdraws. He didn't even look at Murray's police statement.

I still want someone to explain why an addict/depended would go to a doctor office for the drug fix where everything they take is documented instead of getting a prescription and taking at the comforts of their house like million of other addicts. Especially Michael with paps and fans following his every move.
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Thank you. Tom Messereau is on HLN right now.
 
Tmez is on HLN right now. I can't believe what's happening. Dr. Murday killed Michael, cried copious amounts of crocodile tears on TV, then has proceeded to throw his "friend" under the bus.

Unbelievable.
 
bouee said:
Dr White also said that if Murray gave what he said he gave in his police interview, it should not have killed Michael. I think that so far he has mostly been trying to discredit Dr Shafer.

One thing I noticed is the last thing he said , about the non responsive to pain line, he said he didn't understand it because lorazepam is not ab abalgesic. I thought that was suspicious since Dr White himself described the resonse to pain as a criteria to measure the level of sedation. Made him sound to me like he was trying anything to discredit Dr Shafer , and that remark about spelling.... so uncalled for
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What I think he meant was that lorazepam isn't a painkiller and it isn't use to treat pain. From my understand, doctor use other drugs for pain medication, not propofol or lorazepam. From what I read of propofol, you can appear to be sleeping and non-responsive, but you are still 'conscious in some sense and can feel pain.

Also, I don't see him discrediting Shefer, but he just doesn't agree with him on certain things. Like how he thought the sleep study was interesting while Shefer was very critical of it. This kind of disagreement happens all the time in any profession.
 
bouee said:
Dr White also said that if Murray gave what he said he gave in his police interview, it should not have killed Michael. I think that so far he has mostly been trying to discredit Dr Shafer. One thing I noticed is the last thing he said , about the non responsive to pain line, he said he didn't understand it because lorazepam is not ab abalgesic. I thought that was suspicious since Dr White himself described the resonse to pain as a criteria to measure the level of sedation. Made him sound to me like he was trying anything to discredit Dr Shafer , and that remark about spelling.... so uncalled for
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yes its all about descrediting. after all thats what its about. he has to make the jury believe him instead of shaffer or put doubt in their minds. the question is whether he has real medical evidence to discredit or its all about the backhanded comments
 
Bonnie Blue said:
That is quite a massive impeachment. Surely a doctor esp a cardiologist would know if someone is dead or not. Murray was still pretending to find a pulse at 12.45ish wasn't he with the paramedics. That's the problem the defence have - coming up with these theories and then trying to get the facts (and murray's interview) to support them.
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its even more of a prob when he said he got a rate on the pulse oxy.u coukd try and claim i felt a pulse that wasnt there. but u claim the machine had a reading. u cant mistake that
 
Bonnie Blue said:
Can you give a quick resume here for those who don't get hln - i'd like to know what tmez says.
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So far he is saying he never saw Michael taking anything or looked addcited to anything all the time he worked with Michael. He can only go by his experineces with Michael. He says whatever happened today has nothing to do with what Murray did and the defense is just trying to demonize Michael. Murray is the one on trial.
 
I kind of wish T-Mez also pointed out that all those alias were register in Michael's name and the DEA already investigating for wrong-doing on Klien. But, he did a good job keeping to the main issue.
 
I love that guy and he gave Jane a nice warning too lol. Not to let all this addict talk cloud and take away Murray's actions. He defends Michael so well.
 
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