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Murray Trial Day 21, October 31st - Discussion
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MsCassieMollie
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GregMilamSky Greg Milam by MMcParland
Conrad Murray tells judge he has not made a decision on whether to take stand. Judge says he'll ask for last time tmrw. #conradmurraytrial
Conrad Murray tells judge he has not made a decision on whether to take stand. Judge says he'll ask for last time tmrw. #conradmurraytrial
At the end sometimes it's the 'small' things that matter, that's one of the reasons I don't want Walgren to think certain issues don't matter or aren't as relevant, he needs to uncover every single lie told by Murray even white lies, as they show a pattern. IMO
Regarding Murray not having made up his mind of taking the stand or not, this sounds totally like him, I can see his attorney's being against it, but arrogant Murray who probably believes that he's being 'punished' for the heck of it, -as he doesn't seem to think he did anything wrong,- wanting to take the stand to tell ''his version'' of the events. I'd love for him to take the stand. I actually want it to happen.
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missred07
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White is really sneaky in cross. He pretend like he is not bias. He like to play " I don't know or I am not expert card" when he knew something would come out wrong. On the other hand, he had no problem when he testify those model. Very sneaky. I think Walgren did really well in the morning session. However, he didn't crack White down enough of White's theory in the afternoon session. Some of the answers White gave, Walgren should follow up. Like how is that possible that MJ just went cardiac arrest but still be able to lay still back. How is that possible that MJ went cardiac arrest right away and they needle is not in his hand? etc However, I think it's tiresome to question people and standing there for all day long. Especially, when the witness not answering your questions and like to direct people's attention to other places. I think the defense did find a good witness to justify Murray in many ways (Although I personally didn't think it's reasonable and I hope all the jury also share the same opinion as I do). I can only hope that the jury can focus on the main point of Murray'e neglect behavior not other things.
cinzia
Proud Member
While I would love to have murray take the stand I don't think his attorneys would allow it. And we all know that a simple thing like being under oath would mean nothing to him in terms of telling the truth. Although the thought of Walgren crossing him...well, it is the stuff of which dreams are made...
I have been worrying a bit over the last several days that this trial may be putting too much emphasis on computer modeling and not enough on the physical inconsistancies the biggie of course is the lack of Michael's fingerprints. Is this because it is hard to lift prints from a syringe or because the judge gave the instruction not to assume something wasn't handled just because there are no prints? (or something like that)
And the location of the syringe in the room...white finally admitted that murray had to have drawn it up and left it somewhere in the room.. I was so hoping walgren would pursue that avenue more in depth with things like 'well, wasn't that dangerous or irresponsible or unprofessional to do? Or something like that. Or do you believe that in that 2 minutes Michael woke completely up, located the syringe, obtained it, laid back down, inserted it into the Iv port, injected it and fell into the same position as when cm left the room? So that when cm returned after 2 minutes he found him dead? but with a pulse? And he was correct to not call 911 immediately.
I know he touched on these things and I admit I was not able to hear all of the morning testimony and I don't want to be hypercritical of DW but I feel there were missed opportunities. I hope he can get to them tomorrow...I wish he would recall dr schafer. Who I didn't notice sitting in court listening to white's expert testimony
Lastly, since the defense got another expert involved through a back door, whose data their own witness confessed ignorance of , couldn't she be called to testify? To, you know, clear up some of those mysterious sourceless numbers?
I have been worrying a bit over the last several days that this trial may be putting too much emphasis on computer modeling and not enough on the physical inconsistancies the biggie of course is the lack of Michael's fingerprints. Is this because it is hard to lift prints from a syringe or because the judge gave the instruction not to assume something wasn't handled just because there are no prints? (or something like that)
And the location of the syringe in the room...white finally admitted that murray had to have drawn it up and left it somewhere in the room.. I was so hoping walgren would pursue that avenue more in depth with things like 'well, wasn't that dangerous or irresponsible or unprofessional to do? Or something like that. Or do you believe that in that 2 minutes Michael woke completely up, located the syringe, obtained it, laid back down, inserted it into the Iv port, injected it and fell into the same position as when cm left the room? So that when cm returned after 2 minutes he found him dead? but with a pulse? And he was correct to not call 911 immediately.
I know he touched on these things and I admit I was not able to hear all of the morning testimony and I don't want to be hypercritical of DW but I feel there were missed opportunities. I hope he can get to them tomorrow...I wish he would recall dr schafer. Who I didn't notice sitting in court listening to white's expert testimony
Lastly, since the defense got another expert involved through a back door, whose data their own witness confessed ignorance of , couldn't she be called to testify? To, you know, clear up some of those mysterious sourceless numbers?
Ashtanga
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I hope he goes. That would be interesting. :fear:
Someone else mentioned this on another board, did you all notice how White just pulled out an IV line out of his pockets, just like that, but earlier claimed it wouldn't fit and if did fit into a pocket it would be bulgy etc? Hope the jury noticed this.
Anyway that's it for me, will be having dinner and then logging off.
Anyway that's it for me, will be having dinner and then logging off.
missred07
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I started laughing when he did that. It's obvious that they plan that long time ago.
This might not make sense and I know this was a total lie. But when he said that Michael had his own supply of propofol it felt like a slap to Michael. Something like that. The way that Michael continually gets thrown under the bus these kinds of people it just increases my anger. I find it hard to describe how I feel anymore. The defense are the ones that are scumbags.
Ramona122003
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Well, White considers it possible and very likely that Michael ate 8 Lopz through the night and absolutely no signs of being out of it and walked around the room wheeling an IV like a man in a nursing home. So, why would he believe Michael had his on stash.
cinzia
Proud Member
Just read this on pos mic
posmike Positively Michael
Pastor told him he has until tomorrow morning to decide. Seems like murray might want to testify but lawyers don't want him to.
1 minute ago
Positively Michael
posmike Positively Michael
Pastor asked Murray if he planned on testifying. Chernoff had previously said he wouldn't. Murray said he hadn't decided
2 minutes ago
Positively Michael
posmike Positively Michael
Dr. Ornelis is called to testify tomorrow.
posmike Positively Michael
Pastor told him he has until tomorrow morning to decide. Seems like murray might want to testify but lawyers don't want him to.
1 minute ago
Positively Michael
posmike Positively Michael
Pastor asked Murray if he planned on testifying. Chernoff had previously said he wouldn't. Murray said he hadn't decided
2 minutes ago
Positively Michael
posmike Positively Michael
Dr. Ornelis is called to testify tomorrow.
Resa
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According to this article the defense has another witness that will testify after White.
Jackson doc: No decision on whether he'll testify
By LINDA DEUTSCH
AP Special Correspondent
LOS ANGELES (AP) -- With his trial nearing completion, the doctor charged in Michael Jackson's death told a judge on Monday he had not yet decided about whether he will testify in his own defense.
"I will still need more time to talk to my counsel about it," Dr. Conrad Murray told Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor when asked whether the doctor understood his options to testify or remain silent.
Murray said he would let the judge know his decision Tuesday.
His comments outside the jury's presence came at the end of a day when he heard his own expert witness say that he wouldn't have accepted payment to do what Murray did for Michael Jackson - administering a hospital anesthetic in the star's bedroom.
"I wouldn't even consider it," Dr. Paul White said. "It's something no amount of money could convince me to take on."
The use of the drug propofol to treat Jackson's insomnia was "a complete off-label use of the drug," he said. White also acknowledged that the drug should never be given outside a medical facility because of the need for proper lifesaving equipment.
White, a highly regarded and now-retired anesthesiologist, is sometimes referred to as "the father of propofol" for his early research on the drug. But on Monday he was a less-than-respected figure, drawing criticism from the prosecutor and censure from the judge who threatened to fine him $1,000 for contempt of court.
White came under a bruising cross-examination by prosecutor David Walgren, who attacked the expert's recent claim that Jackson caused his own death. Walgren questioned White's scientific calculations and noted he once led the defense to think Jackson drank an extra dose of propofol.
White acknowledged he had done no research on that theory when he posed it. A study later showed the theory to be unsupportable, he said.
While stopping short of blaming Murray for the singer's death, White blurted out during cross-examination that he believed Murray had loaded a syringe with the drug propofol and left it where Jackson could have gained access to it.
That scenario had not been offered before and it could explain how a groggy Jackson could have awakened from sedation, grabbed the syringe and injected the drug into his IV line.
Defense attorney J. Michael Flanagan tried to repair some of the damage by having White justify Murray's delay in calling 911 for help when he found Jackson not breathing. White suggested by that time, Jackson was probably dead and it would not have mattered if paramedics were called quickly.
Murray has said he delayed calling 9-1-1 while trying to give Jackson CPR.
White also said it would not have helped if Murray had disclosed to paramedics or hospital workers that he had given Jackson propofol. Murray didn't mention the drug until two days after Jackson's death, when he was interviewed by police.
Pastor had told White outside the jury's presence to stop trying to sneak in references to private conversations he had with Murray. The witness had suggested his opinions were partially based on what Murray told him, but those talks were not submitted as evidence.
At one point, White said he had been told by Murray that Jackson had his own stash of propofol beyond the hundreds of bottles of the drug that Murray had purchased and shipped to his girlfriend's apartment. Pastor warned White not to try to bring up the conversations or other excluded information again.
"It's deliberate and I don't like it," Pastor said. "It's not going to happen again."
But by the end of the morning, the judge said White had violated his order. He chastised White for telling the jurors at one point: "I'd like to talk to you about this, but the judge told me I couldn't."
He said he considered that remark direct contempt of court but would allow White to explain at a contempt hearing on Nov. 16 before he imposes the $1,000 fine.
White was repeatedly questioned about the ways in which Murray had broken guidelines and rules governing propofol use. Walgren confronted him with excerpts from his own writings in textbooks that set down rules broken by Murray when he administered the drug in Jackson's bedroom.
He also challenged a series of charts presented to the jury by White, who said he had not prepared them and had another expert do the work. The defense said that expert would testify Tuesday before the defense rests its case.
Murray, who has pleaded not guilty to involuntary manslaughter, has acknowledged he was giving Jackson doses of the propofol in the singer's bedroom as a sleep aid. He told police that he left Jackson's room for two minutes on June 25, 2009, and returned to find the pop superstar unresponsive.
White said in forming his opinions, he assumed Murray was out of the room much longer, making phone calls. The retired anesthesiologist said he would not leave the room if he were treating a patient who had indicated he liked to inject propofol into himself, as Murray claims that Jackson had told him.
White said he has been paid $11,000 for his work for the defense so far.
White's testimony put him at odds with his colleague and longtime friend, Dr. Steven Shafer, who testified for the prosecution. Shafer said White's self-administration theory is not supported by the evidence in the case, in his view, and he called the theory "crazy" during his testimony earlier this month.
White and Shafer were colleagues at Stanford University and conducted research on propofol before it was approved for use in U.S. operating rooms in 1989. Both help edit a leading anesthesia journal, and until White's retirement last year, both were practicing anesthesiologists.
Walgren said Shafer will return as a prosecution rebuttal witness Tuesday.
---
AP Entertainment Writer Anthony McCartney contributed to this report.
?
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...MPLATE=DEFAULT
Jackson doc: No decision on whether he'll testify
By LINDA DEUTSCH
AP Special Correspondent
LOS ANGELES (AP) -- With his trial nearing completion, the doctor charged in Michael Jackson's death told a judge on Monday he had not yet decided about whether he will testify in his own defense.
"I will still need more time to talk to my counsel about it," Dr. Conrad Murray told Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor when asked whether the doctor understood his options to testify or remain silent.
Murray said he would let the judge know his decision Tuesday.
His comments outside the jury's presence came at the end of a day when he heard his own expert witness say that he wouldn't have accepted payment to do what Murray did for Michael Jackson - administering a hospital anesthetic in the star's bedroom.
"I wouldn't even consider it," Dr. Paul White said. "It's something no amount of money could convince me to take on."
The use of the drug propofol to treat Jackson's insomnia was "a complete off-label use of the drug," he said. White also acknowledged that the drug should never be given outside a medical facility because of the need for proper lifesaving equipment.
White, a highly regarded and now-retired anesthesiologist, is sometimes referred to as "the father of propofol" for his early research on the drug. But on Monday he was a less-than-respected figure, drawing criticism from the prosecutor and censure from the judge who threatened to fine him $1,000 for contempt of court.
White came under a bruising cross-examination by prosecutor David Walgren, who attacked the expert's recent claim that Jackson caused his own death. Walgren questioned White's scientific calculations and noted he once led the defense to think Jackson drank an extra dose of propofol.
White acknowledged he had done no research on that theory when he posed it. A study later showed the theory to be unsupportable, he said.
While stopping short of blaming Murray for the singer's death, White blurted out during cross-examination that he believed Murray had loaded a syringe with the drug propofol and left it where Jackson could have gained access to it.
That scenario had not been offered before and it could explain how a groggy Jackson could have awakened from sedation, grabbed the syringe and injected the drug into his IV line.
Defense attorney J. Michael Flanagan tried to repair some of the damage by having White justify Murray's delay in calling 911 for help when he found Jackson not breathing. White suggested by that time, Jackson was probably dead and it would not have mattered if paramedics were called quickly.
Murray has said he delayed calling 9-1-1 while trying to give Jackson CPR.
White also said it would not have helped if Murray had disclosed to paramedics or hospital workers that he had given Jackson propofol. Murray didn't mention the drug until two days after Jackson's death, when he was interviewed by police.
Pastor had told White outside the jury's presence to stop trying to sneak in references to private conversations he had with Murray. The witness had suggested his opinions were partially based on what Murray told him, but those talks were not submitted as evidence.
At one point, White said he had been told by Murray that Jackson had his own stash of propofol beyond the hundreds of bottles of the drug that Murray had purchased and shipped to his girlfriend's apartment. Pastor warned White not to try to bring up the conversations or other excluded information again.
"It's deliberate and I don't like it," Pastor said. "It's not going to happen again."
But by the end of the morning, the judge said White had violated his order. He chastised White for telling the jurors at one point: "I'd like to talk to you about this, but the judge told me I couldn't."
He said he considered that remark direct contempt of court but would allow White to explain at a contempt hearing on Nov. 16 before he imposes the $1,000 fine.
White was repeatedly questioned about the ways in which Murray had broken guidelines and rules governing propofol use. Walgren confronted him with excerpts from his own writings in textbooks that set down rules broken by Murray when he administered the drug in Jackson's bedroom.
He also challenged a series of charts presented to the jury by White, who said he had not prepared them and had another expert do the work. The defense said that expert would testify Tuesday before the defense rests its case.
Murray, who has pleaded not guilty to involuntary manslaughter, has acknowledged he was giving Jackson doses of the propofol in the singer's bedroom as a sleep aid. He told police that he left Jackson's room for two minutes on June 25, 2009, and returned to find the pop superstar unresponsive.
White said in forming his opinions, he assumed Murray was out of the room much longer, making phone calls. The retired anesthesiologist said he would not leave the room if he were treating a patient who had indicated he liked to inject propofol into himself, as Murray claims that Jackson had told him.
White said he has been paid $11,000 for his work for the defense so far.
White's testimony put him at odds with his colleague and longtime friend, Dr. Steven Shafer, who testified for the prosecution. Shafer said White's self-administration theory is not supported by the evidence in the case, in his view, and he called the theory "crazy" during his testimony earlier this month.
White and Shafer were colleagues at Stanford University and conducted research on propofol before it was approved for use in U.S. operating rooms in 1989. Both help edit a leading anesthesia journal, and until White's retirement last year, both were practicing anesthesiologists.
Walgren said Shafer will return as a prosecution rebuttal witness Tuesday.
---
AP Entertainment Writer Anthony McCartney contributed to this report.
?
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...MPLATE=DEFAULT
Autumn II
Proud Member
I think that Walgren totally DESTROYED White today. It was clear that Walgren had read much more of the research, than White had. The only thing that White contributed, for his eleven thousand dollars, was ONE letter. He is clearly not skilled in even basic internet research, either. He palmed off that model to a STUDENT?
Are we DONE, yet?
Are we DONE, yet?
Justthefacts
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They have another witness coming tomorrow? Gee
Ramona122003
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Can they really just add another witness like that? Why they need another person to do charts when they could of ask Shaffer. To me it seemed they wanted to go behind Shaffar's back since they knew he wouldn't use questionable data to support a certain point of view.
cinzia
Proud Member
This is not your average grad student: Gabriela Mallén-Ornelas received her Bachelor’s degree in Astronomy from the California Institute of Technology in 1993. She went on to receive her M.Sc. and Ph.D. from the University of Toronto in 1994 and 2000. From 1999 to 2002 she was the first Princeton-Católica Prize Fellow in Observational Astronomy at Princeton University and the Pontificia Universidad Católica in Chile. From 2002 to 2006 she was a Clay Fellow at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics. While she was busy carrying out research in galaxy evolution and searching for extrasolar planets, Gabriela’s interests shifted to things closer-by and with a tangible application. In August 2007 Gabriela was delighted to begin her Ph.D. studies in Biomedical Engineering at the University of Southern California, where she holds a Provost’s Ph.D. Fellowship.
http://biomems.usc.edu/gabriela.htm
I bet she'll rue the day she got involved with this.
http://biomems.usc.edu/gabriela.htm
I bet she'll rue the day she got involved with this.
MsCassieMollie
Proud Member
abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Do you think Dr. #Murray should testify on his behalf? It's his constitutional right to either testify or not. #conradmurraytrial
8 minutes ago
abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Dr. #Murray and attorneys are ordered back at 8:30 am tomorrow to discuss exhibits, schedule and whether Dr. #Murray will testify.
12 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Judge says he expects all the evidence in the case 2 be concluded tomorrow. Trial is set 2 resume at 9:30 am w/ end of re-direct of Dr White
13 minutes ago
abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
After Dr Ornellas, defense is prepared to rest their case. Walgren said he will call Dr. Shafer, briefly, as rebuttal witness. #MurrayTrial
15 minutes ago
abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
After defense concludes with Dr White, they plan on calling Dr Ornellas, the one who put together the models Dr White spoke about. #Murray
16 minutes ago
abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
When prosecutors David Walgren and Deborah Brazil passed by fans in the hallway, they erupted in cheers, clapping for Walgren's performance
17 minutes ago
abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Judge Pastor told Dr #Murray he will have until tomorrow morning to decide. Murray said: "it will all depend on how the case progresses"
19 minutes ago
abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Judge asked #Murray if he's going to testify. He said "I need more time to talk to my lawyers. I have not made my final decision"
20 minutes ago
abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Judge said he's prepared to give a full day off, which takes us to Thursday for jury instructions. He says he'll not deferred that. #Murray
22 minutes ago
abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
More tidbits: judge told attys he will give them 1 day off so they can prepare for closing arguments. If done by tomorrow, Wed could be dark
24 minutes ago
abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Exclusive tidbits: a source tells us the jury instructions are very lengthy, with 20-25 pages. But verdict form should be very simple.
26 minutes ago
Do you think Dr. #Murray should testify on his behalf? It's his constitutional right to either testify or not. #conradmurraytrial
8 minutes ago
abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Dr. #Murray and attorneys are ordered back at 8:30 am tomorrow to discuss exhibits, schedule and whether Dr. #Murray will testify.
12 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Judge says he expects all the evidence in the case 2 be concluded tomorrow. Trial is set 2 resume at 9:30 am w/ end of re-direct of Dr White
13 minutes ago
abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
After Dr Ornellas, defense is prepared to rest their case. Walgren said he will call Dr. Shafer, briefly, as rebuttal witness. #MurrayTrial
15 minutes ago
abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
After defense concludes with Dr White, they plan on calling Dr Ornellas, the one who put together the models Dr White spoke about. #Murray
16 minutes ago
abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
When prosecutors David Walgren and Deborah Brazil passed by fans in the hallway, they erupted in cheers, clapping for Walgren's performance
17 minutes ago
abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Judge Pastor told Dr #Murray he will have until tomorrow morning to decide. Murray said: "it will all depend on how the case progresses"
19 minutes ago
abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Judge asked #Murray if he's going to testify. He said "I need more time to talk to my lawyers. I have not made my final decision"
20 minutes ago
abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Judge said he's prepared to give a full day off, which takes us to Thursday for jury instructions. He says he'll not deferred that. #Murray
22 minutes ago
abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
More tidbits: judge told attys he will give them 1 day off so they can prepare for closing arguments. If done by tomorrow, Wed could be dark
24 minutes ago
abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Exclusive tidbits: a source tells us the jury instructions are very lengthy, with 20-25 pages. But verdict form should be very simple.
26 minutes ago
xthunderx2
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my question exactly....by the looks of it ..she is more into astrology and the planet...than she is propofol. I am NOT to impressed with her credentials as they dont really pertain to this case. I am glad that she will be testify because walgren needs to clear up those grafts .
Naturelle
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I feel like all these witnesses for the defense all over the place.
xthunderx2
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I agree,,there really hasn't been one solid witness yet. Guess we will have to wait and see what this gal has to say. I have confidence that Walgren will set her straight,
edited to add. I am so thankful for David Walgren and crew,,they are really and truly taking up for Michael the way he deserves. The are doing a wonderful job....and WHEN justice is served,,it will be because of them...and for that I am so thankful. I wish Michael would of been able to experience this type of Justice when he was here because that poor man was put through hell by ALOT of people.
cinzia
Proud Member
No, no, no. Not Astrology; PhD Astronomy and astrophysics. Now she is going for a second Phd in BioMedical Engineering. I don't know but I believe she is more involved in developing computer programs and software than being an expert in drugs per se. I saw a pharmacokinetic pharmacodynamic computer software program she was involved with and I didn't understand a thing about it LOL except the title PK and PD systems analysis software and it seems to be geared toward clinical researchers...
So tomorrow should be an interesting day...
Goodbye Michael
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white said that the iv would still work with the valve/tab ripped/cut off. He said it is there to allow air flow, which makes it drip faster......Perhaps not having the tab on made the propofol drip faster than expected into michael causing the overdose. Also, the line of questioning about if murray put the iv or the tube in his pocket is bull. Perhaps there was no fluid to leak into murrays pockets because it had just been pumped into michael jackson, maybe it was bone dry because he walked away from his patient for so long and the iv was dripping at an increased rate because of the missing tab so he put a dry iv/tubing into his pocket.
Autumn II
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She may be a wonderful person, and intelligent, but the POINT is, that White could not be bothered to do his own research, or graphs, but palmed it off on a STUDENT.
smoothlugar
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I got the same impression as you. Walgren mentioned other studies where even no free propofol was detected in urine... that's why Shaffer when asked insisted on the importance of knowing the propofol metabollite to make proper calculations for an estimation of a probable total amount given.
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Justthefacts
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I read an AP story that says Dr Shaffer will be back tomorrow