23 August 2010 Hearing-All discussion here

[CherubimII]

Re: Prelim tomorrow-All discussion here

I do wonder who is paying for Murray's defense.

 

[honeysucklejasmine]

Re: Prelim tomorrow-All discussion here

well don't they insist that Murray didn't give more than 25 milligrams and nothing that he gave should kill Michael? Also add that Michael self injected?

That quote by Chernoff is ridiculous in itself because no physician can accurately predict that the combination of benzos plus propofol given to michael would not have caused a respiratory arrest - in fact it would be the FIRST adverse effect that any doctor with a brain in their head would be worried about, and therefore appropriately plan for, if they were reckless enough to administer it all - which of course Murray was. You wouldn't even think of giving all that in a hospital setting without full airway/ventilatory back up so to do it in a home setting without the right equipment is pure Russian roulette and incomprehensible and I fully expect their claim of "not giving anything that should have killed him" to be strongly challenged by prosecution medics if/when the trial gets underway.

hard to say how (as I have little to none medical info) but perhaps they can argue this somehow based on the numbers? or nothing will come out of it.

There is NO 'normal' amount of this drug outside a hospital setting particularly if resus equipment is absent because you can't predict how your patient is going to respond to it. And they can point the finger at AEG and anyone else as much as they want - it was Murray's responsibility alone to make sure he was adequately prepared to administer those drugs.

 

[Dangerous Incorporated]

Re: Prelim tomorrow-All discussion here

Why does Murray need fluids from MJs body, there were 2 autopsies done that state how much Propofol was in MJs body.

So Murray's lawyers asking for MJ's body fluid suggests they don't believe the autopsy report. Neither do a lot of fans.

 

[Desired.]

Re: Prelim tomorrow-All discussion here

the level of propofol does matter IMO. because it's not a controlled drug and it's not illegal to use it out of hospital setting (of course not recommended for outside use or it's not intended for insomnia but not illegal as well).

so whether he was given a normal amount or an overdose changes a lot of things.

No, but it should be.

That quote by Chernoff is ridiculous in itself because no physician can accurately predict that the combination of benzos plus propofol given to michael would not have caused a respiratory arrest - in fact it would be the FIRST adverse effect that any doctor with a brain in their head would be worried about, and therefore appropriately plan for, if they were reckless enough to administer it all - which of course Murray was. You wouldn't even think of giving all that in a hospital setting without full airway/ventilatory back up so to do it in a home setting without the right equipment is pure Russian roulette and incomprehensible and I fully expect their claim of "not giving anything that should have killed him" to be strongly challenged by prosecution medics if/when the trial gets underway.



There is NO 'normal' amount of this drug outside a hospital setting particularly if resus equipment is absent because you can't predict how your patient is going to respond to it. And they can point the finger at AEG and anyone else as much as they want - it was Murray's responsibility alone to make sure he was adequately prepared to administer those drugs.

I completely agree. I really don't care if Murray says that the amount of Propofol he gave Michael 'shouldn't' have killed him. The fact is that it did kill him, and he needs to be held accountable. There is no way that Murray is so stupid, that he would think that giving Propofol to Michael, without having some sort of hospital equipment for him would have been safe.

 

[ivy]

Re: Prelim tomorrow-All discussion here

Why does Murray need fluids from MJs body, there were 2 autopsies done that state how much Propofol was in MJs body.

I don't believe they are asking fluids from his body

"three fluids collected by the coroner's office, including ones taken from syringes and an IV tube to re-examine test results"

2 out of 3 fluids come from syringe and the IV tube.

Therefore I think their argument is not about the autopsy results but about what was given to MJ.

Someone with medical understanding could explain further I hope.

 

[Justthefacts]

Re: Prelim tomorrow-All discussion here

I know now when they tested the things found in Murray's bag. The IV tubing the broken needle things like that

 

[Annie123]

Re: Prelim tomorrow-All discussion here

I don't believe they are asking fluids from his body

"three fluids collected by the coroner's office, including ones taken from syringes and an IV tube to re-examine test results"

2 out of 3 fluids come from syringe and the IV tube.

Therefore I think their argument is not about the autopsy results but about what was given to MJ.

Someone with medical understanding could explain further I hope.

And in this ( http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/08/23/arts/AP-US-Michael-Jackson-Doctor.html?ref=entertainment ) AP story it is stated even more specifically:

Attorney J. Michael Flanagan said the samples were obtained from two syringes and an IV, but he did not elaborate.

 

[yaazgurl]

Re: Prelim tomorrow-All discussion here

That makes no sense to me. Why test the fluids that were left over in the IV. How about the amount that was in MJ's body. Hopefully his defense is as ridiculous as he is. Because this seems like a non issue.

 

[yaazgurl]

Re: Prelim tomorrow-All discussion here

Sadly true - And they will have to explain why he didn't use medical equipment usefull for this kind of treatment.-

And they are so far just focusing on the propofol however it was also the benzodiapene that caused his death.

 

[yaazgurl]

Re: Prelim tomorrow-All discussion here

I agree with the lot of you here..it doesn't matter what the results are in the retesting of those levels...Michael was overdosed with propofol...it doesn't matter the numbers...Michael is still gone....unless Murray has something else to add to his story that will point the finger at a particluar person...then the defense is full of shit...and they are just buying time.

I agree. They are just buying time because they know they can't get out of this one. MJ was not an addict. He was not doctor shopping and Murray gave an incredible amount of medication one after the other anyone would know it would kill someone.

 

[PrincessMichaela]

Re: Prelim tomorrow-All discussion here

btw as I was reading the news it seems like there's inconsistency what the media reports.

TMZ says that the judge granted the request for the fluid samples.

Dr. Conrad Murray's legal team was just granted a request to get fluid samples of Michael Jackson as part of their defense in his involuntary manslaughter trial.

however this is from MTV

Murray's defense team reportedly asked for access to three fluids collected by the coroner's office, including ones taken from syringes and an IV tube to re-examine test results. Pastor ruled that the coroner's office must preserve the samples, and if defense attorneys and prosecutors cannot agree on the request, he will schedule a hearing on the matter.

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1646329/20100823/jackson_michael.jhtml

and this is from radar online

Judge Pastor granted a protective order regarding all discovery in the criminal case. The material cannot be released to anyone other than the lawyers, paralegals and investigators. "I expect this case is going to go to prelim on January 4th, 2011," Judge Pastor said.

Dr. Murray's legal team also wants access to three fluids that the coroner's office has for Michael Jackson. The lawyers want to re-examine some test results, including those from syringes and an IV Tube. The D.A. has issues with the request because of chain of custody issues and preserving the integrity of the samples.

Judge Pastor wants the two sides to come to an agreement about the request, and if they can't, there will be a hearing. Judge Pastor ruled that the coroner's office must preserve the samples.

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusiv...eliminary-hearing-set-discovery-given-defense

according to these 2 reports it doesn't seem definitive that they'll get the samples.

Okay, One - I hope TMZ is wrong. (And if they are, they need to watch themselves.) Two - I thought that by asking for 'access' to the fluids, they meant access for a third party to come in and examine. But the following statement clearly shows that they meant not just access, but permission to obtain "The D.A. has issues with the request because of chain of custody issues and preserving the integrity of the samples." Is this normal?! Why in the world would a lawyer be allowed this?

Dear God I hope we're not dealing with another '05 "fingerprint" issue here...

I don't believe they are asking fluids from his body

"three fluids collected by the coroner's office, including ones taken from syringes and an IV tube to re-examine test results"

2 out of 3 fluids come from syringe and the IV tube.

Therefore I think their argument is not about the autopsy results but about what was given to MJ.

Someone with medical understanding could explain further I hope.

Correct. Because - not to be too gruesome, but - ...it's no longer possible to obtain fluids from his body... there aren't any in him anymore... or, well, they've been replaced.

 

[prettygirlmj]

Re: Prelim tomorrow-All discussion here

Let me ask a question. The deffense won't have to go to FL and disturb Michael's body to get fluids right? All that is saved somewhere? Honest to god this is getting ridiculous and I want Michael to be left alone.

By the way one of my friends was there today, and she said the fights ALMOST got physical. It was very nasty and the cops were dumbfounded about it. You can thank Karen for turning fans against one another. In 2005, this wasn't happening. Now it is. Sad. People need to support Michael and leave their online fights ONLINE. What a mess and embarassment.

 

[ivy]

Re: Prelim tomorrow-All discussion here

Let me ask a question. The deffense won't have to go to FL and disturb Michael's body to get fluids right? All that is saved somewhere? Honest to god this is getting ridiculous and I want Michael to be left alone.

no and it's not even possible to do so.

they are not even asking fluids from his body plus they are asking access to the samples hold by the coroners office.

 

[8701girl]

Re: Prelim tomorrow-All discussion here

By the way one of my friends was there today, and she said the fights ALMOST got physical. It was very nasty and the cops were dumbfounded about it. You can thank Karen for turning fans against one another. In 2005, this wasn't happening. Now it is. Sad. People need to support Michael and leave their online fights ONLINE. What a mess and embarassment.

Oh god ....

 

[Annie123]

Re: Prelim tomorrow-All discussion here

By the way one of my friends was there today, and she said the fights ALMOST got physical. It was very nasty and the cops were dumbfounded about it. You can thank Karen for turning fans against one another. In 2005, this wasn't happening. Now it is. Sad. People need to support Michael and leave their online fights ONLINE. What a mess and embarassment.

That's so sad. I can't really understand why Karen is so influential with the fans but I haven't been following her tweets/comments - luckily, I guess, if fan fights are the result.

 

[Moulin Rouge]

Re: Prelim tomorrow-All discussion here

Let me ask a question. The deffense won't have to go to FL and disturb Michael's body to get fluids right? All that is saved somewhere? Honest to god this is getting ridiculous and I want Michael to be left alone.

By the way one of my friends was there today, and she said the fights ALMOST got physical. It was very nasty and the cops were dumbfounded about it. You can thank Karen for turning fans against one another. In 2005, this wasn't happening. Now it is. Sad. People need to support Michael and leave their online fights ONLINE. What a mess and embarassment.

I don't think Michael's body will be disturbed, the Coroner should have all the samples needed.

It's a shame that some fans forget Michael's message, the last thing we need is to be a divided community but there is ust so much frustration, chaos and confusion. When certain groups act follishishly people think that represents all MJ fans.

 

[kasume]

Re: court hearing august 23rd-Updates Only

Prosecutor David Walgren sought more information about the tests and whether the samples might be destroyed.

That is exactly what I thought also.

Murray KNOWS what he did. He doesn't need to test s***.

I advise the prosecutors to watch Murray do this test, along with one or two medical experts. And don't give him the fluids until he does the test.

 

[xo_lola_xo]

Re: court hearing august 23rd-Updates Only

4th Jan?

That's fucking ridiculous.

 

[Loralee]

Re: court hearing august 23rd-Updates Only

Janruary 4 2011???????????????????????!!!

OMFG. Seriously. Seriously!!!!!

F***.

 

[Loralee]

Re: Prelim tomorrow-All discussion here

Does anyone else feel like they are bashing their heads against a brick wall??

The judge apparently said that the prelim hearing would be pushed to Jan 4, 2011 because of the availability of witnesses.
http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory?id=11463412
WTF?!

Are the witnesses booked out for 4 months straight???? Are they sooooo busy that they cant turn up to court for some weeks out of a whole 4 months????

I assume that Murrays girlfriend is a witness. Is she sooo busy stripping that she cant come to court until next year???!!

If the witnesses are avoiding turning up, then why don’t they get subpoenaed!!????
This is a criminal case and witnesses are having trouble turning up!???

This is B.S.

 

[StacyJ]

Re: court hearing august 23rd-Updates Only

what exactly do they need to test? Murray knows what he gave MJ and he knows he left MJ alone, so what is this about?

 

[JMie]

Re: Prelim tomorrow-All discussion here

yeah, I don't understand this witnesses problem either.

 

[Maria MJ]

Re: Prelim tomorrow-All discussion here

Does anyone else feel like they are bashing their heads against a brick wall??

The judge apparently said that the prelim hearing would be pushed to Jan 4, 2011 because of the availability of witnesses.
http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory?id=11463412
WTF?!

Are the witnesses booked out for 4 months straight???? Are they sooooo busy that they cant turn up to court for some weeks out of a whole 4 months????

I assume that Murrays girlfriend is a witness. Is she sooo busy stripping that she cant come to court until next year???!!

If the witnesses are avoiding turning up, then why don’t they get subpoenaed!!????
This is a criminal case and witnesses are having trouble turning up!???

This is B.S.

That's exactly my concern. Never heard of a court in the entire world being dragged from delay to delay according to the witnesse's schedules.

It's extremely sad that fans turn against each other, especially when they're out in the public eye. It discredits the entire fanbase. To my understanding, this is being manipulated by those who actually divide and conquer to keep fans controlled.

It's the best way to control a huge crowd that would otherwise be powerful.

Sadly, we have come down to:
-your either pro-estate or pro-family
-you are either boycotting Sony or you're a selfish "I want more from MJ and I don't care about the label" fan
-if you're a believer, Murray is innocent, nobody is to blame. Too painful for other fans to handle.
-if you're a conspiracy theorist, you're a crazed lunatic to those who believe Michael's death was an accident with only Murray to blame. Or even Michael himself for being an addict.

Somebody is actually feeding all these arguments for a good reason and makes sure they are kept alive and going. If fans could put these aside and focus on what's uniting them, they would form a considerable, "dangerous" force of justice that certainly could not be ignored.

Just to remind us of what we share, no matter where we stand:

Michael was ruthlessly exploited by the entertainment industry.
Michael was relentlessly tortured by the media.
Michael was innocent, yet he went through a humiliating trial based on false allegations.
Michael had financial woes that need to be permanently resolved at the exclusive and primary benefit of his beneficiaries.
Michael left us a colossal legacy that needs to be preserved and promoted for the generations to come.

 

[8701girl]

Re: Prelim tomorrow-All discussion here

Just to remind us of what we share, no matter where we stand:

Michael was ruthlessly exploited by the entertainment industry.
Michael was relentlessly tortured by the media.
Michael was innocent, yet he went through a humiliating trial based on false allegations.
Michael had financial woes that need to be permanently resolved at the exclusive and primary benefit of his beneficiaries.
Michael left us a colossal legacy that needs to be preserved and promoted for the generations to come.

:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[helena22]

Re: Prelim tomorrow

At this rate, Murray will be 90 years old before a trial begins. They already set a date in June, to set a date in August, to set a date in October. WTF?

It's crazy isn't it?

If there was some guarantee that Murray will be thrown into jail, all this waiting would be very easy. In reality, we're forced to wait and wait and wait and we can't be sure if justice will be served. That really sucks. The reality sucks yall. That's why I find myself shouting things like, "Karma is a b**** " or "Murray will get his, if not in this life, then in the afterlife." I've been holding on to the belief.

 

[yaazgurl]

Re: Prelim tomorrow-All discussion here

I don't believe that Michael was ruthlessly exploited by the industry or the rumor that he was financially devastated. His estate is healthy and he did well in the industry. If it was the other way around, he and his estate would have been destitute.

As far as the witnesses, I think the prosecution has to interview them(?) and they are not being cooperative(?) I can't believe it would be that they can't testify because of their schedules. That would be ridiculous. At any rate, I am almost convinced we will see justice its just a matter of more waiting.

 

[ivy]

Re: Prelim tomorrow-All discussion here

If the witnesses are avoiding turning up, then why don’t they get subpoenaed!!????
This is a criminal case and witnesses are having trouble turning up!???

This is B.S.

subpoena's are sent by the court for the trial. generally they cannot be used for pre -trial interviews done by the prosecution.

 

[Naturelle]

Re: Prelim tomorrow-All discussion here

subpoena's are sent by the court for the trial. generally they cannot be used for pre -trial interviews done by the prosecution.

I wanted to know if these witness are for Michael or Murray?

 

[144000]

Re: Prelim tomorrow-All discussion here

de ja vu part 3

 

[144000]

Re: Prelim tomorrow-All discussion here

That's exactly my concern. Never heard of a court in the entire world being dragged from delay to delay according to the witnesse's schedules.

It's extremely sad that fans turn against each other, especially when they're out in the public eye. It discredits the entire fanbase. To my understanding, this is being manipulated by those who actually divide and conquer to keep fans controlled.

It's the best way to control a huge crowd that would otherwise be powerful.

Sadly, we have come down to:
-your either pro-estate or pro-family
-you are either boycotting Sony or you're a selfish "I want more from MJ and I don't care about the label" fan
-if you're a believer, Murray is innocent, nobody is to blame. Too painful for other fans to handle.
-if you're a conspiracy theorist, you're a crazed lunatic to those who believe Michael's death was an accident with only Murray to blame. Or even Michael himself for being an addict.

Somebody is actually feeding all these arguments for a good reason and makes sure they are kept alive and going. If fans could put these aside and focus on what's uniting them, they would form a considerable, "dangerous" force of justice that certainly could not be ignored.

Just to remind us of what we share, no matter where we stand:

Michael was ruthlessly exploited by the entertainment industry.
Michael was relentlessly tortured by the media.
Michael was innocent, yet he went through a humiliating trial based on false allegations.
Michael had financial woes that need to be permanently resolved at the exclusive and primary benefit of his beneficiaries.
Michael left us a colossal legacy that needs to be preserved and promoted for the generations to come.

i don't agree with the financial woes part..i believe that's part of the slander against him in the media, to make him look devalued in the eyes of the public, because the media didn't agree with his 'lifestyle'. as for the legacy, it's invincible. but everything else you wrote, i agree with.

howe er i must say that like Michael, the legacy, Michael's fanbase is invincible, as is the music. all three factions went through hell and back for the past thirty or more years, throughout his career and life, and media and haters trying to destroy it, or divide and conquer the fanbase have failed miserably. let us keep the faith, the factions cannot be destroyed. there's nothing more invincible than gold tried by fire. and that's what we are..what Michael is, as his legacy. oh, the unseen strength. it's awesome. the enemies cannot fight what they cannot see.