Could the charges have been greater if the property was locked down immediately?

So it looks increasingly likely that Murray will charged with Involuntary Manslaughter. It is not set in stone yet, and I am still hoping and praying the DA/LAPD will surprise everyone and charge him with Murder 2.

If the house and property were immediately closed off as a crime scene, then there could have been enough evidence for a Murder 2 charge. As we know anything and everything could have been removed and tampered with.

My question is, is it police incompetence that has hindered the charge from being Murder 2? If so, is there a basis for the LAPD to be sued by the estate for not sealing off the crime scene and thus missing the crucial time window for collecting evidence. Has Michael's chance of justice been let down, again by the LAPD?

Even if the house was closed off as a crime scene from the beginning, there was still a big gap in the time frame which gave anybody who had access to the house time to get rid of evidence before the ambulance and police arrived.
 
Witness statements are also PROOF. I'm sure there were many, many witnesses to what went on in the household, and what kind of shape Michael was or was not in. It is NOT over.

Parts of the autopsy that has been released said Michael was in good health, This we know. I'm Just worried about what Kind of evidence the defense team has.
 
Witness statements are also PROOF. I'm sure there were many, many witnesses to what went on in the household, and what kind of shape Michael was or was not in. It is NOT over.

Witness statements are not the same kind of proof you have when you have concrete evidence of what is physically present at the time.

For example, if I say I saw you with a lollipop in your mouth and someone else said they weren't sure, and someone else said it was a twizzle stick, that is a matter for the jury to decide who is credible. Thats all I meant by that.

When evidence is presented and then testimony starts coming forth to back it up, credibility of the witness comes into play.

This is why I say that some of the Jacksons no longer have any credibility.
 
well hes either gonna get found guilty or not. or a plea and interms of the actual case theres not much we can do about that.
 
OK, thanks Elusive. Can I ask how do you know it was locked down? The only thing I heard was that Murray's car was seized but nothing about the house.

the LAPD got a call around 1 pm that day informing them their was something wrong , at the time MJ was still at the house where murray forced the paramedics to work on him for 43 minutes there and did not allow them to transpose him to UCLA which was 3 minutes away .

We know everyone was asked to leave the house and they left at the same time MJ was being transposed to the hospital , his bodyguards went with him , someone obviously stayed at the house until the police arrived or they may have arrived even before everyone left , we don't know .

Alvarez was called so he would testify to what he saw exactly in that room , the paramedics also were there so they would testify to what they saw , where were the drugs , where were everything , the police officers did secure the house and they took pics of the scene , the paramedics would have been asked and will be asked during the trial whether everything in those pics the police took matches what they saw at the scene .


the Police were very suspicious because Murray left without talking to them , and sure the doctors at UCLA would have told them immediately that they did ask him to sign the death certificate and he declined , also the paramedics would have told them immediately there was something very wrong with Murray .

the house was secured , the evidence listed in the search warrants were all seized on 25th of June , and Murray's bag which was seized on 29th of june .

the evidence you talked about was not mentioned in any of the search warrant to raid Murray's clinic , houses or storage . I think the LAPD did not have much trust in Jeffer Phillips and his 'harmless evidence' the 'coke' , the 'bleaching cream' and 'glaucoma= Halperin' that were given to the coroner so later Mr.Phillips and his girlfriend latoya could confirm or deny that story to one of the tabloids and as a result pay off their mounting debt . :smilerolleyes:


the police officers stayed there for hours on the 25th of june , left the house late that night for MJ's family , they came and ofcourse Latoya& Randy started looking for cash and jewellery :smilerolleyes:and if you want to believe Grace , she got a call from the family and they wanted to know where the cash was :smilerolleyes: typical jacksons .

the family moved his things the very next day , according to Latoya the staff got a call at 11:00 pm that day from Tohme releasing everyone from their jobs . Very understandable since the boss passed away , his kids moved to live with his family and there was no one to serve anymore .


whatever , even if murray's defence questioned the chain of custody , there are witnesses like Alvarez and the paramedics , who were there and saw everything first hand , non of those have a motive to lie . All the drugs would have been traced and Murray's name was on them .

The most important thing is all the drugs he gave with the exception of lorazepam were found in his bag , his bag he told them where exactly to find .
He will have to explain when he did find the time to hide it , when he did find the time to collect the bottles and who was doing CPR to MJ while he was busy cleaning the scene .

the bag , its content which killed mj and the fact that it was very well hidden that neither the police nor MJ's family could locate it is the most damaging evidence against him .

and please please keep in mind he did not allow the paramedics to transpose MJ to UCLA which was only 3 minutes away and delayed them for 43 minutes , I can't figure out how is he gonna explain that ?
 
"Witness" statements certainly ARE good evidence in court. Especially if there are many, and they corroborate. Not going down that "no evidence" road. There IS plenty of evidence, I'm sure. If this goes to court, it ultimately is about what 12 people think. A lot of technical, jargony medical "evidence" will be secondary to what people heard and saw, and what those twelve people would believe to be true. No amount of PR is going to change what they hear in testimony, just as the negative PR didn't ultimately alter the CORRECT verdict in his trial. I hope "the people" win this one.
 
^^Soundmind, so it's true that the used propofol bottle, lines and administering devices were found in Murray's doc bag in the closet?
 
they found 8 bottles of propofol, midazolam,lorazepam , lidocaine and flumazenil in his bag . That's what they mentioned in the search warrant .
 
by the way there is something very important we did not notice in the search warrants :

A search of the residence, specifically JACKSON's bedside, revealed numerousbottles of medications prescribed by DR. MURRAY to JACKSON, including DIAZEPAM (VALIUM),TAMSULOSIN (FLOMAX), LORAZEPAM (ATIVAN) and TEMAZEP AM (RESTORIL). Prescriptionpill bottles of CLONAZEPAM (KLONOPIN) and TRAZODONE (DESYRL), prescribed to JACKSONby DR. METZGER and a prescription pill bottle of TIZANIDINE (ZANAFLEX), prescribed toJACKSON by DR. KLEIN were also found at JACKSON's bedside. According to the Physician's DeskReference (PDR), most of these drugs have an indicated or off label use in the treatment of insomnia.

these were PILLS , now read how they refered to what they found in his bag :


Investigators served the warrant and recovered multiple bottles/vials of LIDOCAINE(XYLOCAINE), several bottles/vials of PROPOFOL (DIPRIVAN), bottles/vials of LORAZEPAM(ATIVAN), bottles/vials of MIDAZOLAM (VERSED), and bottles/vials of FLUMAZENIL(ANÉXATE). None of these items were labeled as prescribed to any patient

He left the PILLS there to be seen and hid the liquid , so I doubt they found anything associated with IV where MJ was that night .
 
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by the way there is something very important we did not notice in the search warrants :

these were PILLS , now read how they refered to what they found in his bag :

He left the PILLS there to be seen and hid the liquid , so I doubt they found anything associated with IV where MJ was that night .

Which to me means a few things. He had an IV line in him. Where did it go? Where did the used syringes for the Propofol and other narcotics used go? He said he 'pushed' them so he had to have this line. Perhaps they found them and just didn't feel it necessary to put on the search warrants.

We have limited information for that reason. They surely held back what they didn't want the defense to know.
 
Which to me means a few things. He had an IV line in him. Where did it go? Where did the used syringes for the Propofol and other narcotics used go? He said he 'pushed' them so he had to have this line. Perhaps they found them and just didn't feel it necessary to put on the search warrants.

We have limited information for that reason. They surely held back what they didn't want the defense to know.


I'm sure they found them , but they did not find them with the PILL bottles .That's the point , he did not hide the VIALS and left the PILLS for nothing . And he certainly did not hide the VIALS and left the IV so detectives could test the traces of drugs that went throught it .The one who hid the VIAL and left the PILLS was with a motive to hide everything associated with it . Yes he later admitted he gave it and he told them where to find it , but WHY did he hide it in the first place and WHO WAS PERFOMING CPR at the time ?
 
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As of now we don't even know for sure what they are going to charge him with, according to TMZ and the other ''copy&paste'' news outlets it's going to be involuntary manslaughter, I just hope they will drop additional charges as well.
As for your question this is the LAPD we are dealing with, even if they had locked down the property immediately, they wouldn't come up with higher charges. Authorities are known for their strong dislike toward Michael Jackson IMO.

Well, I called again. This time the DA's office didn't answer, I then called the LAPD's # which they had an answer machine on. I left a message asking them if CMURRAY was his birth name. How does anyone charged for a ML or murder2 if they are using an alias? No one picked up. I guess they are on to us fans calling in.
Now I will send and email which they will most likely delete before even reading it.
 
Well, I called again. This time the DA's office didn't answer, I then called the LAPD's # which they had an answer machine on. I left a message asking them if CMURRAY was his birth name. How does anyone charged for a ML or murder2 if they are using an alias? No one picked up. I guess they are on to us fans calling in.
Now I will send and email which they will most likely delete before even reading it.

An alias? Oh my.
 
"Witness" statements certainly ARE good evidence in court. Especially if there are many, and they corroborate. Not going down that "no evidence" road. There IS plenty of evidence, I'm sure. If this goes to court, it ultimately is about what 12 people think. A lot of technical, jargony medical "evidence" will be secondary to what people heard and saw, and what those twelve people would believe to be true. No amount of PR is going to change what they hear in testimony, just as the negative PR didn't ultimately alter the CORRECT verdict in his trial. I hope "the people" win this one.

Victoria, exactly. I have faith we will be able to prove murder. To be honest, there is SO much evidence, and even more HIDDEN evidence still to be uncovered. Stories from others we have not even heard (Prince, Paris..and I believe others are just still keeping quiet)
 
He left the PILLS there to be seen and hid the liquid , so I doubt they found anything associated with IV where MJ was that night .

Which to me means a few things. He had an IV line in him. Where did it go? Where did the used syringes for the Propofol and other narcotics used go? He said he 'pushed' them so he had to have this line. Perhaps they found them and just didn't feel it necessary to put on the search warrants.

We have limited information for that reason. They surely held back what they didn't want the defense to know.

This is exactly what prompted me to start this thread. Physically what happened to all the equipment Murray used that morning?

Murray has admitted injecting numerous drugs into Michael in the interview on the 27th June. The search warrant was issued and multiple prescription pills were found on the nightstand by the police on 26th June. The warrant stated that any drug be seized but there has been no mention of any IVs being found. Also, the paramedics did not know Murray had used propofol, suggesting that there was no obvious sign of it at the scene when they arrived.

It would really have helped the case if the scene was locked down at the time. The police could have said with certainty if these IV things were or were not obviously present. If they were present, were they on the floor, were they in the trash? Their whereabouts, or lack there of, could have been key in decifering the intentions of Murray. I suppose if the police have never found them, then this still could be used against Murray, but because it was not sealed then Murray could say someone else got rid of them not him.

Also, the IV equipment could hold clues about if it was set up correctly and if a pump was used, then it was working etc

We need to make sure these questions will be or have been addressed by the police / DA as they are vital in piecing together what actually happened.
 
Which to me means a few things. He had an IV line in him. Where did it go? Where did the used syringes for the Propofol and other narcotics used go? He said he 'pushed' them so he had to have this line. Perhaps they found them and just didn't feel it necessary to put on the search warrants.

We have limited information for that reason. They surely held back what they didn't want the defense to know.

I thought you said you were a "medical professional?" if so then you surely know there were NO narcotics found in Michael's system?

Certain things were "not found" because the LAPD did not secure the house as a crime-scene. That does NOT mean that those in the house were clueless. I'm sure the truth will come out.
 
This is exactly what prompted me to start this thread. Physically what happened to all the equipment Murray used that morning?

Murray has admitted injecting numerous drugs into Michael in the interview on the 27th June. The search warrant was issued and multiple prescription pills were found on the nightstand by the police on 26th June. The warrant stated that any drug be seized but there has been no mention of any IVs being found. Also, the paramedics did not know Murray had used propofol, suggesting that there was no obvious sign of it at the scene when they arrived.

It would really have helped the case if the scene was locked down at the time. The police could have said with certainty if these IV things were or were not obviously present. If they were present, were they on the floor, were they in the trash? Their whereabouts, or lack there of, could have been key in decifering the intentions of Murray. I suppose if the police have never found them, then this still could be used against Murray, but because it was not sealed then Murray could say someone else got rid of them not him.

Also, the IV equipment could hold clues about if it was set up correctly and if a pump was used, then it was working etc

We need to make sure these questions will be or have been addressed by the police / DA as they are vital in piecing together what actually happened.


I'm sure other things were found & taken on June 25 without a search warrant. If police are invited in, it is my understanding they can confiscate evidence without a warrant. LAPD said on June 25th, they were investigaing routinely. TMZ, not a great source, said MJ had an open IV line in him. On June 26, after MJ died they needed a search warrant - so things there are listed.

link:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2009/06/michael_jackson_rushed_to_hosp.html
Update 8:53 PM Greg Strank, a detective with Los Angeles Police Department's robbery and homicide unit, told journalists gathered outside Michael Jackson's house that the media shouldn't read anything significant into officers from his unit being on the scene. "We investigate deaths every day," he said, adding that the high profile nature of the case led the the LAPD chief to have his unit secure the scene and conduct an investigation. He wouldn't answer questions beyond the time the police were notified, at about 1:00 PM Los Angeles time, and the time the cultural icon was pronounced dead, 2:30 PM Los Angeles time.

I think there is a youtube clip of the police officer talking about this, but not sure.
 
I thought you said you were a "medical professional?" if so then you surely know there were NO narcotics found in Michael's system?

Certain things were "not found" because the LAPD did not secure the house as a crime-scene. That does NOT mean that those in the house were clueless. I'm sure the truth will come out.

What are you talking about? Midazolam, Lorazepam, Diazepam, etc., these are narcotics. How can you not know this at this late stage of things? Didn't you look up the drugs that were found in his system? These were all administered by Murray that night, the first 2 done via Intravenous route.
 
What are you talking about? Midazolam, Lorazepam, Diazepam, etc., these are narcotics. How can you not know this at this late stage of things? Didn't you look up the drugs that were found in his system? These were all administered by Murray that night, the first 2 done via Intravenous route.

The drugs you are mentioning are the benzodiazepines, not the narcotics. Narcotics are the analgesics medications derived from opium. The propofol and the benzo's, all administered by Murray, led to Michael's untimely death.

See the text below copied from
http://www.answers.com/topic/narcotic and this text is from the Britannica Concise Encyclopedia.


narcotic

Drug that produces analgesia (see analgesic), narcosis (stupor or sleep), and drug addiction. In most people narcotics also produce euphoria. Those that occur naturally in the opium poppy, notably morphine, have been used since ancient Greek times. The main therapeutic use of narcotics is for pain relief. Most countries limit the production, sale, and use of narcotics because of their addictive properties and detrimental effects and the incidence of drug abuse. With the development in the 19th century of the hypodermic needle and of heroin, five to 10 times as potent as morphine, the use and abuse of narcotics increased dramatically. A narcotic overdose can cause central nervous system depression, respiratory failure, and death.
 
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What are you talking about? Midazolam, Lorazepam, Diazepam, etc., these are narcotics. How can you not know this at this late stage of things? Didn't you look up the drugs that were found in his system? These were all administered by Murray that night, the first 2 done via Intravenous route.
These are sedatives not narcotics.I suggest you look it up again, as you are confusing sedatives with narcotics.
 
I don't know why I even bother posting or replying .
What happened Soundmind? Please keep on posting on this board, you are one of the few factual posters on here, all we have on here are the conspiracy theorists which wouldn't even be a problem if they'd stick to their fanfiction forum the Investigative Unit.
 
Look what else I found out about Midazolam.........


Midazolam is used to produce sleepiness or drowsiness and to relieve anxiety before surgery or certain procedures. Midazolam is also given to produce amnesia (loss of memory) so that the patient will not remember any discomfort or undesirable effects that may occur after a surgery or procedure . It is also used to produce loss of consciousness before and during surgery. Midazolam is sometimes used in patients in hospital intensive care units to cause unconsciousness. This may allow the patient to withstand the stress of being in the intensive care unit and help the patient cooperate when a machine must be used to assist with breathing.

Midazolam is given only by or under the immediate supervision of a doctor trained to use this medicine. If you will be receiving midazolam during surgery, your doctor or anesthesiologist will give you the medicine and closely follow your progress.



http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/drug-information/DR600929


May also cause loss of memory...hmmmm.....I wonder if this was used on Michael for reasons other than sedation for anxiety.
 
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