[Discussion] Sexual Abuse Claims Against MJ Estate - Robson/ Safechuck/ Doe

[Soundmind]

Re: Wade Robson files claim of childhood sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Isn't the burden of proof on the acuser's side?

the burden of proof in a civil trial is very low , that's why more than 90% of cases are setteled out of court.

 

[GreenEyes]

Re: Wade Robson files claim of childhood sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

This whole thing and running to the media now to tell his story to begin his healing proceess is total B.S.!!!

My prediction.... this will conveniently find a way into this trial as a way to reduce the damages award. Just like Tom M. Said could happen last night on his interview. The jury could also lose any sympathy for Michael.

 

[That Other Fan]

Re: Wade Robson files claim of childhood sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

we don't know what he claimed in his credit claim, it's sealed. We are quoting TMZ when it comes to repressed memory claims .

Frankly repressed memory would have been much easier to refute and defend , now it's a different story . It's up to the judge if he wants to give an adult who admitted lying under oath twice a free pass to lay his claims in front of a jury . If he has the chance to continue , it's not gonna be that easy for the estate believe me . They better have strong evidence of his financial status in the last two years. Nevertheless, he already covered that by claiming his understanding of the seriousness of what MJ did to him led to a breakdown which caused him his career. He's already admitted in his filings he has no source of income for the last two years.However, he's blaming MJ for that.

Repressed memory is pretty much what the lawyer claimed in the statement. The wording of it has changed now.

He just admitted to perjury!

If his memory wasn't repressed, if he known all along what happened to him... why wouldn't he crack on the stand? Especially under INTENSE cross-examination from Zonen?

Michael was on trial. If he wanted the moment to "reveal" the truth... THAT was it.

What could Michael have done? He was about to be put away for 20 years if convicted.

Not to mention the footage of him praising Michael even after his death.

No person with a functional brain is going to believe him without some serious questions.

The burden of proof lies with him...and he shot himself in the foot (thankfully) by abandoning the "repressed memory" claim.

 

[earthlyme]

Re: Wade Robson files claim of childhood sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

My feelings/ reactions towards WR when watching the interview was Shock, To Pissed, to sad(feeling like i did in 2003), to laughter(Cuz this thing is Ludacris), to tears(cuz it hurts so much to see Michael go through this again), to anger(@WR for this amazingly sad and disgusting road hes chosen to take), and at the end, i only had pity for him... I dont feel anything on this "story" right now... I am however Still, and will be outraged until the end...

But when i think about it some more, he said he lied in 1993&2005, and everyone knew that he was so convincing that he was the strongest witness for the defence...now hes a puppet to AEG. I feel like its either $$$ or they got something on him that he rather lie on Michael and throw him under the bus than let whatever it is come out.

I also think, no matter how many times they want to deny it, AEG is behind this whole shitty, ugly, uncalled for Mess. They said this would get ugly when the trial Jacksons vs. AEG started and they're indeed ruthless.

I know its a lot of speculation but thats all i can do right now, not to feel hurt.

i have a headache now and cant think about this without wanting to pull my hair so ama go to work...

L.o.v.e.
Romi

 

[Billie Jean 78]

Re: Wade Robson files claim of childhood sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

the burden of proof in a civil trial is very low , that's why more than 90% of cases are setteled out of court.

What do you mean by that? Surely the acuser must prove something has happened?

 

[mybluesaway]

Re: Wade Robson files claim of childhood sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I really feel that somehow AEG has a part in this.
The timing is just so convenient for them.

 

[bouee]

Re: Wade Robson files claim of childhood sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

we don't know what he claimed in his credit claim, it's sealed. We are quoting TMZ when it comes to repressed memory claims .

Frankly repressed memory would have been much easier to refute and defend , now it's a different story . It's up to the judge if he wants to give an adult who admitted lying under oath twice a free pass to lay his claims in front of a jury . If he has the chance to continue , it's not gonna be that easy for the estate believe me . They better have strong evidence of his financial status in the last two years. Nevertheless, he already covered that by claiming his understanding of the seriousness of what MJ did to him led to a breakdown which caused him his career. He's already admitted in his filings he has no source of income for the last two years.However, he's blaming MJ for that.

if it goes that far, the estate will dig the police interviews, his testimony, MJ's schedule back then (on tour, on rehab) = MJ was not able to make the calls . His mother ans sister's interviwes and testimonies.. possibly arviso's testimonies (he self destroyed on the stand) , and possibly the chandler file- that led to no charge. Maybe phone records too.
So , I would say , yes, difficult times ahead, but not that easy for Robson either. He claims he remebers but did not understand at the time, so that won't explain it all, far from it. he had a lot of opportunities to understand.

 

[bouee]

Re: Wade Robson files claim of childhood sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

What do you mean by that? Surely the acuser must prove something has happened?

chandler & francia got a settlement....and we are in the middle of the AEG trial. Though I hope the Estate will not setlle if it goes that far.

 

[Pimboli]

Re: Wade Robson files claim of childhood sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

but... if he knew all along, what about his mom and sister defending Michael? You mean to tell me his mother got on that stand and defended someone she knew had molested her son? What mother would do such a thing?!

 

[HIStory]

Re: Wade Robson files claim of childhood sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Mez to TMZ:

MJ's Lawyer
Wade Robson is a
Money-Grubbing Liar

​

The lawyer who repped Michael Jackson in the 2005 molestation case is scoffing at Wade Robson's interview on "Today," telling TMZ, "This is a pathetic and an obvious grab for publicity and an attempt to put pressure on the [Michael Jackson] Estate to pay him money."

Tom Mesereau tells us Robson is flat-out lying when he says this is not about money, saying, "Why call yourself a creditor if it's not about money." TMZ broke the story ... Robson has filed a belated creditor's claim with the MJ Estate.

Mesereau says Robson was grilled by the prosecutor in the 2005 criminal case and was unwavering. He says it's simply unbelievable that the truth didn't surface when Robson was on the stand. Mesereau says Robson is an intelligent guy who has volunteered statements in and out of court, defending Michael.

As for the money ... Mesereau tells us, "Everyone knows this Estate is well over a billion dollars and growing."

For the record, it's not at a billion bucks yet, but the Estate has made hundreds of millions of dollars and it will probably hit the billion dollar mark.

​

 

[GreenEyes]

Re: Wade Robson files claim of childhood sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

This civil suit will go nowhere and they know it. It's all smear campaign against Michael.

There is an ABSOLUTE one year statate of limitations in the State of California against suing the deceased. Robson missed the boat years ago and he knows it.

Read this: http://www.albertsondavidsonpost.co...ions-in-trust-probate-estate-and-civil-cases/

 

[bouee]

Re: Wade Robson files claim of childhood sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Repressed memory is pretty much what the lawyer claimed in the statement. The wording of it has changed now.

no, his lawyer did not say that, i remeber posting about that. The lawyer did not explain. What has changed is that they filed a civil lawsuit on may 10th. the creditor's claim was on may 1st.

 

[ivy]

Re: Wade Robson files claim of childhood sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

the burden of proof in a civil trial is very low , that's why more than 90% of cases are setteled out of court.

What do you mean by that? Surely the acuser must prove something has happened?

In a criminal trial the person is assumed innocent and the guilt has to be proven by prosecution without any reasonable doubt. so the jury should say "I'm absolutely sure this person is guilty, there's no question in my mind.".

in a civil trial burden of proof is on the plaintiff but they only need to prove it is more likely to be true than not true. So if we are putting numbers on it, if a jury thinks a claim is 51% true and 49% lie, then the person who made the claim should win the lawsuit. (51 > 49 means it's more likely to be true than not true).

So in other words a criminal trial requires the jury to be 100% certain while the civil trial only needs 51% certainty. that's why burden of proof is much lower on a civil trial.


edited to add: some claims such as fraud requires a lot more clear & convincing evidence but still do not require 100% beyond reasonable doubt.

 

[Pimboli]

Re: Wade Robson files claim of childhood sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

@ivy, now that Michael is dead and thus unable to defend himself, can he be found guilty should it come to that? What is the "worst case scenario" (except the damage to his legacy, obviously).

 

[PrincessLNJ]

Re: Wade Robson files claim of childhood sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I hope he goes to jail. He's a lying piece of scum. I won't even watch the interview.

 

[ivy]

Re: Wade Robson files claim of childhood sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

@ivy, now that Michael is dead and thus unable to defend himself, can he be found guilty should it come to that? What is the "worst case scenario" (except the damage to his legacy, obviously).

both of these are civil complaints. the worse case scenario Estate is ordered to pay Wade money.

 

[innuendo141]

Re: Wade Robson files claim of childhood sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

God bless Tom Mesereau. Nothing to gain from this except more respect from us.

 

[bouee]

Re: Wade Robson files claim of childhood sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I hope he goes to jail. He's a lying piece of scum. I won't even watch the interview.

Maybe Wade was messed up by shrink. I'm sure these things happen. I hope the estate fights it , and that things are left clear. And after that, Robson will have to get a new shrink.

 

[Pimboli]

Re: Wade Robson files claim of childhood sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

both of these are civil complaints. the worse case scenario Estate is ordered to pay Wade money.

and what about Michael? Will such an order mean = guilty? I know the media will claim so, but legally speaking...?

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

Re: Wade Robson files claim of childhood sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I burst into tears while watching this f*ckery! :mat: :boohoo: How the hell had the guts to say he knew it all this time but he praised Michael before the trial, during, after, when he passed, even last year? Does he think we're idiots? This was just a sick attempt to get more coverage and attention because he knew media in majority were making fun of him! He said he's not doing this for money but filed a creditor's claim. BULLSHIT! I just hope the truth prevails on Michael's side and The Estate not settling... *crossed finger*

That bastard, traitor can go f*ck himself! :flip:

sorry, I curse the most when I'm angry and outraged!

 

[ivy]

Re: Wade Robson files claim of childhood sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

and what about Michael? Will such an order mean = guilty? I know the media will claim so, but legally speaking...?

well technically in a criminal case you are trying to determine if a person is guilty of the crime and in a civil lawsuit you are trying to determine if they are responsible for the physical or emotional injuries suffered. so technically it doesn't mean guilty of the crime but media / public will not make that difference.

for example : AEG civil trial. Murray has been found guilty of Michael's homicide. AEG is being sued in a civil trial. That lawsuit does not mean AEG murdered Michael, it just claims as Murray's alleged employer they are responsible for the injuries - meaning loss of income. However to many fans that civil trial means holding AEG responsible for Michael's death. So technical differences between a criminal and civil trial is lost on public in most of the cases.

 

[Billie Jean 78]

Re: Wade Robson files claim of childhood sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

In a criminal trial the person is assumed innocent and the guilt has to be proven by prosecution without any reasonable doubt. so the jury should say "I'm absolutely sure this person is guilty, there's no question in my mind.".

in a civil trial burden of proof is on the plaintiff but they only need to prove it is more likely to be true than not true. So if we are putting numbers on it, if a jury thinks a claim is 51% true and 49% lie, then the person who made the claim should win the lawsuit. (51 > 49 means it's more likely to be true than not true).

So in other words a criminal trial requires the jury to be 100% certain while the civil trial only needs 51% certainty. that's why burden of proof is much lower on a civil trial.


edited to add: some claims such as fraud requires a lot more clear & convincing evidence but still do not require 100% beyond reasonable doubt.

Thank you for the clarification! Now how does a jury decide what 50% certainty is? And what kind of evidence can there be in a case of sexual molestation that allegedly happened so many years ago? Besides Wade's word that is!

 

[bouee]

Re: Wade Robson files claim of childhood sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

both of these are civil complaints. the worse case scenario Estate is ordered to pay Wade money.

IF it goes to trial, will it be public ? What do you think could be the reasons to file everything under seal ?

 

[seany]

Re: Wade Robson files claim of childhood sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Does anyone know if the international media/press are running the story? All I have seen on here is two reports from TMZ and another story from the Today show...

 

[PaceMioDolceCuore]

Re: Wade Robson files claim of childhood sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

If I were an outsider/non-fan with no knowledge of this, I would find it strange that he didn't say any encouraging words to REAL victims of child sexual abuse. Real sexually abused kids always talk about "awareness" and speak out FOR the other victims. Robson said nothing of the sort in support of real victims of sexual abuse. It really wasn't even about his own alleged abuse. It was all about damaging Michael Jackson.

Yes, this.
He's talking in total generalities and even repeated word for word for Lauer asked of him. Word for word. While I understand that a cheesy morning show isn't the place to delve minute details of personal things - you don't speak in generalities. I understand not going into very specific details of sexual abuse (I have related specifics in an affidavit and usually those that had access to it don't even know what to say).
The thing is though that those who lived through go through great lengths describing the mental shackles around your brain - and especially how that made you feel. You can't help it, I think I even did that in my last postings. You spill the beans and usually can't help but mentioned specific situations and you also have more than one of these situations ready to pop from your mouth - the the point that others might even think you're a bit freaky because they're so specific.

I heard this whole 'he role played and trained me' - about what situations, what did he say, how did you feel etc. Specifics, not these generic talking points. Abusers also have more than one or two lines - talk to a couple of those who lived it and they will be able to spontaneously write down entire novels of specifics.
Seen countless counseling sessions and so many abused start out rattling off situation after situation, just because they can finally get it out.

Something is totally off, have yet to see someone sitting so calm and raising a single outbrow at himself when saying 'my truth'.
Especially the beginning of the interview sounded beyond scripted, bad acting.

I'm sure the next few interviews will be adjusted.

To me . It is clear You have some BIG issues robson . You are quite scary .I am psychologically and emotionally completely unable and unwilling to understand what you have claimed.
You make no sense whatsoever.

A relative of mine suddenly started out accusing a spouse of rather odd things, infidelity etc. Family was beyond rattled. It then escalated to accusations of "there are plans to murder me" etc. Mental illness is one of the worst things to witness - what I have noticed was that total stoic attitude and the hanging on to specific phrases etc - as if the mind is jumping to phrases just to find a literal grip.
Family was beyond rattled, horrified etc. Later on came a break when it became obvious that there was mental illness involved, but the damage was sure done.

I don't want to speculate too much but something is totally off and accusations of that kind after 'peaceful' years happen often on the roadway of mental illness, too.
Browse some mental health boards and you'll be pretty saddened to read with what kind of accusations family members sometimes have to deal with - only to discover later on that a loved one had slipped into mental illness.
Usually that dredges up all sorts of actual issues that had been gone unspoken. Conflict, unprocessed anger, love, expectations etc.

Who knows what other issues are boiling below the surface, the whole 'I was brought to the US". If he knew all along that his was experiencing sexual abuse - well, I'm not sure that someone over the age of 20 does not realize that sexual relations with a 7 year old are not an expression of love. Mental retardation is something else altogether, but I don't buy that a male of his age in 2005 would not have realized that he too was abused - when your abuser is on trial.

And hell would freeze over before I would have a BBQ with my abuser, numb feelings or not.

There was no regret about supposedly having aided an alleged pedophile. The guilt of that would be horrifying, you'd be explaining that at every opportunity, explain the dynamics etc. Nada in that interview. Nothing.

I'd be inventing new words to explain it to Lauer - not copy his words. I'm sure that'll be 'corrected' in the next interview.

I would for the next interviewer to point out that a claim for money for being filed. "No amound of money is going to make me go away"- cognitive dissonance, Wade? You filed a monetary claim. He didn't even flinch when saying that. If he doesn't understand how he contradicts himself on that - what else isn't adding up?

 

[innuendo141]

Re: Wade Robson files claim of childhood sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Does anyone know if the international media/press are running the story? All I have seen on here is two reports from TMZ and another story from the Today show...

Haven't seen anything Seany, it took sky news days before they did a little piece. I think wolf has been cried too many times

 

[PaceMioDolceCuore]

Re: Wade Robson files claim of childhood sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Ugh - "The View" started their program with the story, too.

I sure hope Whoopi Goldberg speaks up.

 

[seany]

Re: Wade Robson files claim of childhood sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I see nothing reported in any news websites... thank fcuk!

 

[ivy]

Re: Wade Robson files claim of childhood sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Thank you for the clarification! Now how does a jury decide what 50% certainty is? And what kind of evidence can there be in a case of sexual molestation that allegedly happened so many years ago? Besides Wade's word that is!

there are a lot of cases based on a person's word only. not every case needs hard proof. it's still a question to the jury if they believe it and find it credible.

the 50% certainty is in the minds of the jury like I said. The numbers was to make it easy to understand, it's not like in real life they sit down and calculate percentages.

Think like this - Wade says "Michael molested me. I could not even admit it to myself", Estate says "this is all lies,it is all about money." The jury sits there listens to it and says "Hmm what Estate says makes sense but I believe Wade is telling the truth" - that's the %50.1 threshold in a civil lawsuit. In this scenario they could have questions in their minds but if they believe Wade more than they believe Estate, Wade would win the civil lawsuit.

IF it goes to trial, will it be public ? What do you think could be the reasons to file everything under seal ?

yeah if it goes to trial 99% it would become public. It would eventually all become public.

 

[seany]

Re: Wade Robson files claim of childhood sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

WR is going on Access Hollywood tonight to tell his 'story'.... it seems he is about to do all the news rounds...