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Is "Invincible" as good as previous MJ's Albums ?

Is Invincible as Good as previous MJ's Albums...

  • YES

    Votes: 188 64.6%

  • NO

    Votes: 103 35.4%
  • Total voters
    291
loka said:
promotion not only makes you know that a new album is out !

it helps you to notice how good it is...

That's why MJ made so great videos...

Some songs would no be appreciated here so much if they didn't have the videos we know...

Bad, Jam, Smooth Criminal were helped by their videos...

it we are in love with these titles it's also because we have the videos in Mind...

some other titles like Tabloid Junkie, I can't let her get away, she drives me wild, are underrated by fans because they don't have Videos...

It's as simple as that...
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How does a video make a song better? I've seen bad songs with good videos and good songs with bad videos. I like music because I like the song, not because of a music video. I guess "video killed the radio star". :p Promotion doesn't have anything to do with quality either. Lil' Wayne is majorly promoted, but I still don't like his stuff, lol. Many of the acts I like are little known by most people.
 
so you think that the video of Thriller/smooth Criminal/Jam/Scream/ has nothing to do with how we love the title ?

you think that if MJ never did the moonwalk on Billie Jean, we would love the title as we do now ?

So why did MJ put all his heart and all his mind in the Video and Live performance ?

MJ Knew before everybody (and you still don't know it seems) that Image change our perception of the sound...It enhances it !

It's the same in Movies...The Soundtrack (the score) of a Movie is very important...A bad score can almost generate a bad Movie.

In Music, a good video can make you appreciate more a title...Michael knew it since 1980.

you should know it...
 
when we compare Invincible to previous albums...It's unfair...simply unfair because the work is not finished as it was with previous works : no videos, no live performances.
 
loka said:
so you think that the video of Thriller/smooth Criminal/Jam/Scream/ has nothing to do with how we love the title ?

you think that if MJ never did the moonwalk on Billie Jean, we would love the title as we do now ?

So why did MJ put all his heart and all his mind in the Video and Live performance ?

MJ Knew before everybody (and you still don't know it seems) that Image change our perception of the sound...It enhances it !

It's the same in Movies...The Soundtrack (the score) of a Movie is very important...A bad score can almost generate a bad Movie.

In Music, a good video can make you appreciate more a title...Michael knew it since 1980.

you should know it...
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^^^^The Girl Is Mine was released before the Thriller album came out, didn't have a video, or any TV performances (American Bandstand, Soul Train, Solid Gold, etc.) but still was a hit. I'm a fan of music, I don't really care about the videos. It's a nice bonus, but not really important. Basically you're saying that Mike couldn't sell without the videos, which is what critics tend to say about 80s acts. If a music video is needed, how did anyone sell records before MTV?
 
Is "Invincible" as good as previous MJ albums? No. Not by a long stretch. Less Michael Jackson songwriting equals less quality songwriting.
 
DuranDuran said:
Basically you're saying that Mike couldn't sell without the videos, which is what critics tend to say about 80s acts. If a music video is needed, how did anyone sell records before MTV?
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I say : without videos, MJ wouldn't have sell 68 M of Thriller ! He wouldn't have sell 34 M of BAD etc etc...

With the videos, you can be touch by music that wouldn't touch you without videos...

If you're a fan of MJ...it's not only because he's a great singer...it's because he's a great performer and his videos were great...

ps :sorry for my english.
 
loka said:
when we compare Invincible to previous albums...It's unfair...simply unfair because the work is not finished as it was with previous works : no videos, no live performances.
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You started the thread.. ;) How can we answer your question without comparison?
Well anyway, you and some others are trying really hard to make people change their opinions on this based on there being no music videos for most of the titles on Invincible. I still disagree and forever will :D Sometimes you find a great song even more amazing if there's a cool video to it, but I've never experienced anything like "well, that song wasn't really my cup of tea, but since the video is so great now it's my favourite song.."
Most of MJ's songs I've really started to love without seeing any videos, because when I became a fan we didn't have MTV, we only had one TV show that showed music videos and most of the time I missed it because of other hobbies. Also in the beginning I rather put my money on his albums because I couldn't afford both the albums and the video compilations...
However, sometimes a really amazing live performance can make me appreciate a song more, but usually there's then more to it than just the great amount of live energy. For example Heartbreak Hotel I thought was a good song, then I saw videos from Bad Tour and it became one of my favourites. :punk: The live version is quite different from the album version though.
 
you're right...i started the thread...so let's compare...

If we make a Triumph vs Off the Wall Poll...

Off The Wall will win easily for the same reasons : lack of videos and live performances for Triumph.

Did you know that Bad was elected by 3 M of readers of Rolling Stone the worst album of 1987 ?

Do you think it could have been the same after the promotion of BAD ?
 
^^
I wouldn't compare a Jacksons' album to MJ's solo album, but I actually prefer Off The Wall as an album to Thriller though Thriller has songs with more amazing vids... ;) (Maybe I'm just weird)
I did know that Rolling Stone's readers poll has had interesting opinions on Michael's work even though I'm not sure about the year. I don't know when they had their 1987 election, but Bad was definitely promoted already in 1987, there were single releases, videos and stuff, so it seems to me that those Rolling Stone readers had their negative opinion on the album despite the promotion.
I believe I've seen some other magazine (or maybe it was Rolling Stone again, I'm not sure) having similar poll results even after 1988, the year you couldn't possibly claim there was no promotion for Michael or his album or his book or his film. Wasn't Bad among the biggest selling albums (in US) both in 1987 and 1988? So I don't consider such poll results very significant and don't think they occured due to not enough promotion even in 1987. :)
 
loka said:
when we compare Invincible to previous albums...It's unfair...simply unfair because the work is not finished as it was with previous works : no videos, no live performances.
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So True
 
Nah, but it was sure as hell better than what other singers were putting out at the time. It had a handful of awesome songs I still listen to today, but nothing that made it "as good" as his previous albums from the standpoint of being classics. And no, it's not a promotion thing for me, because I've listened to all the songs numerous times and consider myself intelligent enough to conclude how good it is without needing a record label to beat me over the head with it. I think it's funny that there are people here literally telling those of us who have a similar opinion as mine that we don't "get it" because we didn't get to see it in full promotion. You could try that on the average person on the street and you'd probably be right, but you're talking to Michael Jackson fans who crave for his work. I don't even need to see a video. There's no official Human Nature music video and I love that song just as much as any of his singles. There are tracks on Invincible that are just as good as tracks from his bigger albums, but as an overall album it definitely doesn't hold up.

Really, even though it's good music, most of the songs on there could have been sung by JT or Usher and I would have no problem believing it. Just think, if 'Vince was one of their albums and there was a poll here asking if it was as good as Michael Jackson's albums, everyone would look at the original poster like he was fucking crazy, lol.

Pretty sure it's(generally) only the diehards who would vote yes here. I consider myself a diehard too, but damn... 'Vince just as good as OTW, Thriller, Bad, Dangerous? Nah.

I think most of us agree that Invincible should have been bigger than it was, though. I still think it MORE than held up to the standard of pop music at that time. Although the extent of how successful the album actually was is underrated. Ten mil (probably noticeably higher now after his death, but I think it was around 10 mil before that) is nothing to scoff at.
 
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januska said:
^^
I wouldn't compare a Jacksons' album to MJ's solo album, but I actually prefer Off The Wall as an album to Thriller though Thriller has songs with more amazing vids... ;) (Maybe I'm just weird)
I did know that Rolling Stone's readers poll has had interesting opinions on Michael's work even though I'm not sure about the year. I don't know when they had their 1987 election, but Bad was definitely promoted already in 1987, there were single releases, videos and stuff, so it seems to me that those Rolling Stone readers had their negative opinion on the album despite the promotion.
I believe I've seen some other magazine (or maybe it was Rolling Stone again, I'm not sure) having similar poll results even after 1988, the year you couldn't possibly claim there was no promotion for Michael or his album or his book or his film. Wasn't Bad among the biggest selling albums (in US) both in 1987 and 1988? So I don't consider such poll results very significant and don't think they occured due to not enough promotion even in 1987. :)
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in fact, the Poll was made during september/october 87.

Only the video of "Bad" was released and the single (without video) of I "just can't stop"..."
 
loka said:
I say : without videos, MJ wouldn't have sell 68 M of Thriller ! He wouldn't have sell 34 M of BAD etc etc...

With the videos, you can be touch by music that wouldn't touch you without videos...

If you're a fan of MJ...it's not only because he's a great singer...it's because he's a great performer and his videos were great...

ps :sorry for my english.
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I was a fan of The Jacksons/J5 before Mike went solo. I don't listen to people because of a video. I'm a fan of Johnnie Taylor and he never made any music videos. Thriller had 9 songs, 7 were released as singles and only 3 had videos. Apparently somebody bought the 4 non-video singles for them to become hits.
 
loka said:
I think it's better than History...
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You're perfectly entitled to have that opinion, but I think I'm equally entitled to have mine too.. :)
It's funny that it seems that people who are not so thrilled of Invincible always kind of have to defend themselves and their opinions. Because we are fans we shouldn't "undervalue" it? Well, I don't know. But it's okay to discuss it. Not everybody has to agree in the end though.. ;D
 
That's something I really loved about Invincible. It had so many songs. The more songs, the better IMO. That rule is only for MJ though.
 
Two ways to answer this, those that love and know music know that it isn't.

Those that just love Michael will say that it is.

But it isn't.
 
Tony R said:
Two ways to answer this, those that love and know music know that it isn't.

Those that just love Michael will say that it is.

But it isn't.
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Do you mean i (and the 55 other percent of this Poll) have no taste ?
 
In a way, when it comes to Michael Jackson, promotion really does change the face of the album. Thriller is a prime example of that. The song itself is not that great, but if you take a look at the music video.. You'll see the entire picture of the song, and greatness could not be denied. Smooth Criminal is another example. That video is probably what made me an MJ fan in the first place.

I'm not talking about "advertising" per se. But MJ truly shines when he completely re-imagines the audio piece to a visual one, and I also think Vince would have benefited from that. I still don't think it would have been as good as his previous work but it would have helped.. that I can't deny.
 
Arklove said:
:bugeyed WTF were they listening to????
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During that period, most of the people who bought Rolling Stone were white male guitar rock fans, and Mike was considered R&B or pop so is not real music to them. Pop was always considered teenybopper music or music for girls by the male rock fans and magazines.
 
ASIS said:
In a way, when it comes to Michael Jackson, promotion really does change the face of the album. Thriller is a prime example of that. The song itself is not that great, but if you take a look at the music video.. You'll see the entire picture of the song, and greatness could not be denied. Smooth Criminal is another example. That video is probably what made me an MJ fan in the first place.

I'm not talking about "advertising" per se. But MJ truly shines when he completely re-imagines the audio piece to a visual one, and I also think Vince would have benefited from that. I still don't think it would have been as good as his previous work but it would have helped.. that I can't deny.
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I completely agree !

The song BAD was also clearly helped.

The Brazilian version of They don't care about us helped too...

MJ wanted something big on Unbreakable and on Threatened !
 
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loka said:
The Brazilian version of They don't care about us helped too...
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This song wasn't a hit in the USA. It probably didn't get any airplay because Jewish groups complained about the lyrics.
 
Tony R said:
Two ways to answer this, those that love and know music know that it isn't.

Those that just love Michael will say that it is.

But it isn't.
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Well, that's quite harsh. I truly love the guy to pieces- but yet I DO LOVE Invincible. It took me a while to really get into, to really warm up to it- but you know what? The same thing happened to me with certain parts on Dangerous as well.

In fact, I even prefer Invincible to Thriller and Off The Wall- I'm not kidding and I dare say that I have a huge spectrum of music that I listen to, from Pop to Jazz to mostly Classical music, lots of Indie too. And for some reason Invincible really, really sticks with me- although it took me the longest to warm up to. I don't know why that is- Dangerous and Invincible are somewhat demanding the listener to come along, they are both very layered albums and long for their time.

I appreciate it. I don't generally don't like Pop and as a rule cannot stand R&B of today for some strange reason- but I love Invincible.

Taste differs in people and I know I am in a tiny minority but if I were to chose between owning Off The Wall, Thriller and Invincible- I would chose Invincible hands down. I do mean that.
 
ASIS said:
In a way, when it comes to Michael Jackson, promotion really does change the face of the album. Thriller is a prime example of that. The song itself is not that great, but if you take a look at the music video.. You'll see the entire picture of the song, and greatness could not be denied. Smooth Criminal is another example. That video is probably what made me an MJ fan in the first place.

I'm not talking about "advertising" per se. But MJ truly shines when he completely re-imagines the audio piece to a visual one, and I also think Vince would have benefited from that. I still don't think it would have been as good as his previous work but it would have helped.. that I can't deny.
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If there would have been a video to "Threatened" you BET that that song would have gotten the mainstream recognition it truly deserved.

I completely get how a song can become "something else" in connection with a video.

But then there are exceptions... Let's take Billie Jean. I might be the only one saying that but I am for one glad that I can listen to it without those boardwalk stones lighting up. :bugeyed I never saw the Motown 25 and his original Moonwalk when it happened- yet for some reason the song to me lives by itself. This Is It somehow managed to combine Billie Jean with something visual for me for the first time (no HIStory tour footage did that for me!)- and that was just rehearsal. I'm extremely audio oriented, I can't be swayed by pictures so to speak.

I confess that the song Thriller mostly leaves me cold, I know that others love that song and I love what they re-did in TII, there was some humor in those zombies touching the camera. But aside from that all the Thriller glory never got to me, the song isn't speaking to me.

But there are others that never had a video- and to me they are a part of my own being- We've had enough, Little Susie, Can't let her get away etc.
I listen to 2Bad, Is It Scary and Ghosts with the utmost pleasure really, it's almost something physical- they are some of my favorite songs yet in my mind I NEVER see the imagery of "Ghosts" the movie playing- yet I love the movie.

Some people are greatly affected by visuals and they way something is being presented when performed- other can be completely untouched by visual and are very strictly audio oriented for some reason.
 
DuranDuran said:
This song wasn't a hit in the USA. It probably didn't get any airplay because Jewish groups complained about the lyrics.
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I'm not talking about hits at all. I'm just saying from my own perspective. I think live performances and videos would have made me appreciate this album far more than I do now.
 
DuranDuran said:
This song wasn't a hit in the USA. It probably didn't get any airplay because Jewish groups complained about the lyrics.
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I'm not talking about becoming a HIT. I'm talking about being loved by people and by fans.

I really believe that the songs : BAD, THRILLER, In The closet, They don't care, Smooth Criminal, were helped by their videos.

I'm not saying they were bad music...They were great since the beginning. But their videos are so good that people and Fans really went into it.

Invincible didn't have this Chance.
 
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