Michael - The Great Album Debate

[kopwatcher]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Sony didn't realise and have run with it.

I think they realised. We're talking about a multinational music company here, they're not stupid. They had the opportunity to change things when BN streamed. They didn't. I blame them for this.

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I think they realised. We're talking about a multinational music company here, they're not stupid. They had the opportunity to change things when BN streamed. They didn't. I blame them for this.

Along with the fact that they had the opportunity to show this 'proof' on Oprah, a perfect public platform...They didn't...

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Well, not quite literally the same. But I guess you exaggerate to make the point.

Of course, sorry. But that's how bad it is to me.

No one would do that to Elvis' legacy. And Michael was Elvis' better in EVERY SINGLE way possible.

No one would do that to The Beatles legacy. And Michael OWNED The Beatles.

There's been a distinct lack of respect. That's all. And he deserves more. He's the greatest, most consummate artist that has ever lived. He deserves for his name to be up in lights. Not dragged through the dirt.

I get the feeling that there are some fans who think that I get some sort of enjoyment out of this. I don't. I love 'Best of Joy'. But it's tainted FOREVER MORE for me by being sandwiched between Monster and Breaking News. That didn't have to happen. But it did. And the album goes down onto his discography forever and ever along with Off The Wall, Thriller, Bad, Dangerous, etc.

He deserved more.

 

[Tony R]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Of course, sorry. But that's how bad it is to me.

No one would do that to Elvis' legacy. And Michael was Elvis' better in EVERY SINGLE way possible.

No one would do that to The Beatles legacy. And Michael OWNED The Beatles.

There's been a distinct lack of respect. That's all. And he deserves more. He's the greatest, most consummate artist that has ever lived. He deserves for his name to be up in lights. Not dragged through the dirt.

I get the feeling that there are some fans who think that I get some sort of enjoyment out of this. I don't. I love 'Best of Joy'. But it's tainted FOREVER MORE for me by being sandwiched between Monster and Breaking News. That didn't have to happen. But it did. And the album goes down onto his discography forever and ever along with Off The Wall, Thriller, Bad, Dangerous, etc.

He deserved more.

Agreed. I never expected the good tracks on Michael to be as good as they are, and it's such a shame that this 30% overshadows the great 70%.

But I don't think that people have purposely tried to smear his name again. I think if anything all this has happened because people (Cascios) were desperate to be associated with him.

Also, I guess that to a lesser extent Elvis & Beatles forums have had similar instances where, for example, the JXL remix of 'A Little Less Conversation' will have annoyed purists and releasing The Beatles' Free As A Bird when it's obviously way inferior to all their other work will have pissed Beatles fans off.

Before you say it, I know it's not fully comparable with other people singing his songs but what I'm trying to make a point of is that you can never posthumously treat material the way that will please all fans.

I'm arguing with myself really because I'd have loved for Michael to have had the 3 unreleased but great tracks (Children, Gangsta & Slave) on and not the 3 we're all arguing about, but I don't think it's the conspiracy it's being made out to be. It's bad judgement & desperation gone badly wrong.

 

[kreen]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Of course, sorry. But that's how bad it is to me.

No one would do that to Elvis' legacy. And Michael was Elvis' better in EVERY SINGLE way possible.

No one would do that to The Beatles legacy. And Michael OWNED The Beatles.

There's been a distinct lack of respect. That's all. And he deserves more. He's the greatest, most consummate artist that has ever lived. He deserves for his name to be up in lights. Not dragged through the dirt.

I get the feeling that there are some fans who think that I get some sort of enjoyment out of this. I don't. I love 'Best of Joy'. But it's tainted FOREVER MORE for me by being sandwiched between Monster and Breaking News. That didn't have to happen. But it did. And the album goes down onto his discography forever and ever along with Off The Wall, Thriller, Bad, Dangerous, etc.

He deserved more.

If the Cascio songs turn out to be fake, you're absolutely right.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

If the Cascio songs turn out to be fake, you're absolutely right.

They don't need to be proved to be fake. Sony had 3 STELLAR Michael Jackson tracks that they could have included. With no doubts. No whispers. No controversy.

They chose not to include them. Had they done, there wouldn't even be a debate. And fans AROUND THE WORLD would have bought the album. And Sony's public image wouldn't have taken the hammering it has.

But hey...

 

[MJJuniorSinceMW]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

^
I understand You. (Yes, i'll go that far.)
And i understand your pain & fury, from your point of view.

But You Can Not Know.

And please. Think just one moment:
If the impossible (from your point of view) happens & at some point it is proven that it is MJ for 100 percent, won't you feel bad for the things you said about the last songs from our beloved human being & artist, Mr. Michael Jackson. What you said about his vocal abilities and writing skills?

If i may, I would suggest:
-take one step back
-be not so hard and aggressive anymore (against the voice on these tracks)
-wait till something (some proof in either direction) comes up

Again i understand You. As i love MJ as much as You do & i will forever do so!

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

If the impossible (from your point of view) happens & at some point it is proven that it is MJ for 100 percent, won't you feel bad for the things you said about the last songs from our beloved human being & artist, Mr. Michael Jackson. What you said about his vocal abilities and writing skills?

A terrible song is a terrible song. I think Privacy is a terrible song. I know, 100%, that Michael Jackson wrote and recorded it. The fact that it's his song doesn't alter my opinion.

As for the likelihood of the song's being Michael what you're basically asking me is 'if the world was proved to be flat would you stop believing it's round?'. That's what you're asking me. How do you want me to answer that?

-be not so hard and aggressive anymore (against the voice on these tracks)

It's like this... Michael Jackson has been a part of my life for almost 30 years. He's been in my life longer than any girl that I've ever dated or married. He's been in my life longer than any child I've had or any nephew or niece I have. I've been a fan from the highest point in his career through to the lowest nadir. It takes INCREDIBLE levels of faith to remain a fan for that amount of time and through those periods. The upshot of that is that I take it personally when his legacy is threatened.

 

[Tony R]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

A terrible song is a terrible song. I think Privacy is a terrible song. I know, 100%, that Michael Jackson wrote and recorded it. The fact that it's his song doesn't alter my opinion.

It's like this... Michael Jackson has been a part of my life for almost 30 years. He's been in my life longer than any girl that I've ever dated or married. He's been in my life longer than any child I've had or any nephew or niece I have. I've been a fan from the highest point in his career through to the lowest nadir. It takes INCREDIBLE levels of faith to remain a fan for that amount of time and through those periods.

For those two points alone, we're incredibly similar.

 

[kreen]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Why can't we just get in contact with Eddie Cascio? The man's not a superstar, and in today's world of social media, surely it wouldn't take too much detective work to find his email address? If we asked him politely and explained our reasons, wouldn't he agree to a Q&A session with us?

His place of residence is well-known : it's Franklin Lakes, in New Jersey. Somebody who would call him up, not as a weirdo fan but as the respected leader of a fan community, such as Gaz here, would surely get a response from him.

 

[smooth_criminal05]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

^ Good idea. I'll ask Gaz about it

 

[Jesta]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

^ The thing is, would Eddie provide Gaz with stuff like warm-up tapes of MJ's voice to distribute?

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Why can't we just get in contact with Eddie Cascio? The man's not a superstar, and in today's world of social media, surely it wouldn't take too much detective work to find his email address? If we asked him politely and explained our reasons, wouldn't he agree to a Q&A session with us?

His place of residence is well-known : it's Franklin Lakes, in New Jersey. Somebody who would call him up, not as a weirdo fan but as the respected leader of a fan community, such as Gaz here, would surely get a response from him.

But what you're saying is 'let's speak to someone who financially benefits from claiming it's definitely the work of Michael Jackson.' What do you expect him to say? 'Actually it's really dubious the way the tracks were created, we took an adlib from One More Chance, another from Xscape and another from Unbreakable...'? That's not going to happen anytime soon.

 

[Arklove]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

^^ I have a feeling all we'd get is a reiteration of the issued statement back from November...

 

[loka]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Why can't we just get in contact with Eddie Cascio? The man's not a superstar, and in today's world of social media, surely it wouldn't take too much detective work to find his email address? If we asked him politely and explained our reasons, wouldn't he agree to a Q&A session with us?

His place of residence is well-known : it's Franklin Lakes, in New Jersey. Somebody who would call him up, not as a weirdo fan but as the respected leader of a fan community, such as Gaz here, would surely get a response from him.

Sony or the EState probably asked him to not communicate for some reasons.

But it's true that Fans need desperatly to have a real interview with him. No Doubt.

Fans need some proof also...like footages of MJ in this Studio.

 

[Jesta]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

^ We'd never get footage of MJ. It's too personal. He could be in pajamas for all we know, the Estate definitely wouldn't allow that. We the fanbase needs is a tape showing him warm up, or talking to Eddie in the studio.

 

[loka]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

^ The thing is, would Eddie provide Gaz with stuff like warm-up tapes of MJ's voice to distribute?

good idea...Eddie Cascio, The Estate and Sony have to admit that what the fans want is legit.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

^ We'd never get footage of MJ. It's too personal. He could be in pajamas for all we know, the Estate definitely wouldn't allow that. We the fanbase needs is a tape showing him warm up, or talking to Eddie in the studio.

And that would prove, to you, that the vocalist on the Cascio tracks is Michael Jackson?

 

[Jesta]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I'd imagine the voices would be the same if they were from the same session, so yes, that would eliminate any doubt for me that I may have.

 

[MJJuniorSinceMW]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

A terrible song is a terrible song. I think Privacy is a terrible song. I know, 100%, that Michael Jackson wrote and recorded it. The fact that it's his song doesn't alter my opinion.

As for the likelihood of the song's being Michael what you're basically asking me is 'if the world was proved to be flat would you stop believing it's round?'. That's what you're asking me. How do you want me to answer that?

I think you are over exaggerating. The world is round, that is proven already. As much as i love the idea of phoebe (of Friends TV show).
It sounds as if you won't believe it's MJ, even if serious proof will be shown. And because of that i can't take your statement seriously.

Doesn't really matter, BUT:
There is not one song of Michael Jackson, i (imo) would call terrible. There are some few weaker ones, but no song of Michael is terrible (imo).

It's like this... Michael Jackson has been a part of my life for almost 30 years. He's been in my life longer than any girl that I've ever dated or married. He's been in my life longer than any child I've had or any nephew or niece I have. I've been a fan from the highest point in his career through to the lowest nadir. It takes INCREDIBLE levels of faith to remain a fan for that amount of time and through those periods. The upshot of that is that I take it personally when his legacy is threatened.

I don't know how old are you, but maybe when i reach your age, i'm also 30 years a fan.
I myself am a hardcore fan since '89/'90. I was eight or nine years at that time. So i'm already a fan over 20 years too. I'm sad for the fact i couldn't experience the thriller era & was still very young during bad (David Hasselhoff & Knight Rider were my thing around this time )
So i wasn't around at the point what you maybe call his highpoint. But for me the greatest piece of art he ever created is Dangerous. And some of his greatest Songs came even after that.. And i know & experienced the periods you mentioned: And i never wavered and i always supported Michael to the fullest. I was harassed at school and looked at with raised eyebrows when i went through the city with an MJ-shirt on, after 2003. So i know what you are talking about.
And as long as the songs are not proven fake, i don't see Michaels legacy being threatened.
In fact (IMO) Michael Jackson's Legacy can't be threatened. Hell, he stood through 2 serious allegation scandals & sold one million tickets in hours after that. Nobody can bring this Man down, NOBODY & NOTHING!
And for sure, 3 questionable tracks (or 5, or 12) can not do this either.

 

[Pamonha]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Of course, sorry. But that's how bad it is to me.

No one would do that to Elvis' legacy. And Michael was Elvis' better in EVERY SINGLE way possible.

No one would do that to The Beatles legacy. And Michael OWNED The Beatles.

There's been a distinct lack of respect. That's all. And he deserves more. He's the greatest, most consummate artist that has ever lived. He deserves for his name to be up in lights. Not dragged through the dirt.

I get the feeling that there are some fans who think that I get some sort of enjoyment out of this. I don't. I love 'Best of Joy'. But it's tainted FOREVER MORE for me by being sandwiched between Monster and Breaking News. That didn't have to happen. But it did. And the album goes down onto his discography forever and ever along with Off The Wall, Thriller, Bad, Dangerous, etc.

He deserved more.

Exactly! 'Michael' will stand side by side to the rest of his almost immaculate discography, and it could have been a good thing, if they hadn't done so many faults: the songs itself (the ones sung by Michael) are good, but things like the overproduction on Hollywood Tonight, Hold My Hand being actually an Akon song featuring MJ, the poor remix they've done on The Way You Love Me (the version o TUC is far better!) are examples of things that took off some of the brightness of the album, but they're ALL passable faults!

What's not passable is the fact that 3 songs are so much questionable and possiby FAKE (besides the fact that 'Breaking News' and 'Monster' are musically a piece of crap IMO)! That's what really taints Michael Jackson's legacy, the fact that there may be an impersonator pretending to be MJ on a song (three, actually) on a MICHAEL JACKSON album, that's what has really tainted a part of his legacy (at least for me) and isn't in ANY WAY acceptable!

 

[Jesta]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

A. While I can't really suggest anything apart from Gaz requesting the raw, untampered vocals for the three tracks, it would still put my mind at rest.

B. That it typically a whole other level of debate, a morality one at that. I'm personally hoping for an "Ultimate Collection" of sorts with the demos and original versions of all the songs on "Michael", along with some other demo gems.

 

[samhabib]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

It sounds as if you won't believe it's MJ, even if serious proof will be shown. And because of that i can't take your statement seriously.

As far as I'm concerned there is no proof. If there was, ANY company trying to make money would release it. It serves nobodies interests to withold 'proof'.

There is not one song of Michael Jackson, i (imo) would call terrible. There are some few weaker ones, but no song of Michael is terrible (imo).

We have a difference of opinion, then.

i don't see Michaels legacy being threatened.

Maybe you should speak to more non-fans. And see what they think of this fiasco. His legacy, in your eyes, won't be threatened. But there will be swathes of the general public who won't purchase another Michael Jackson product because of this. That's absolute fact. So, yes, the future of his legacy is being threatened.

There's a world of potential Michael Jackson fans being born who won't have been alive to see him. And will have to deal with this chaos day in, day out. Without his genius around to keep their spark of interest going. So, yes, his legacy is being threatened. Not for us, the fans who were lucky to be alive to experience his genius. But for future generations.

A good example being that I wouldn't buy 'Michael'. Hence my son won't hear 'Best of Joy'. Or 'Much Too Soon'. And that same pattern will be repeated around the world by different parents, uncles, auntys, etc.

 

[donalb]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I'd imagine the voices would be the same if they were from the same session, so yes, that would eliminate any doubt for me that I may have.

But this doesn't address the issue that:

A. the vocals have been admittedly treated by Teddy Riley to fit the music
B. the music has been added to the vocals and has never been approved or even heard by Michael Jackson

Regardless of where you stand on the authenticity of the vocals, there is still the issue with the above in terms of calling these "Michael Jackson" songs

 

[kreen]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

But what you're saying is 'let's speak to someone who financially benefits from claiming it's definitely the work of Michael Jackson.' What do you expect him to say? 'Actually it's really dubious the way the tracks were created, we took an adlib from One More Chance, another from Xscape and another from Unbreakable...'? That's not going to happen anytime soon.

I wouldn't expect any footage or tapes or anything like that from Cascio, but just a Q&A session with them, just like any serious producer would do : they could answer questions on the recording, such as who wrote what, and what MJ thought of the songs, etc. : just talk about those four months a bit!

 

[Jesta]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

As I earlier put:

"A. While I can't really suggest anything apart from Gaz requesting the raw, untampered vocals for the three tracks, it would still put my mind at rest.

B. That it typically a whole other level of debate, a morality one at that. I'm personally hoping for an "Ultimate Collection" of sorts with the demos and original versions of all the songs on "Michael", along with some other demo gems."

 

[MJJuniorSinceMW]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I think Michael stands and forever will stand in one line with Mozart, Beethoven, Tschaikowski & Lennon/Mc Cartney as the greatest creators in the world. Michael Jackson was & forever will be the greatest artist & the true King of Pop, Rock & Soul. In everything he did he is the greatest. Artistry, Music, Dance, Movie, Entertainment, Concert shows, TV performances, last not least Humanitarian.

And the World will come to that believe & understanding! Sooner, or later.

And even if not one more album of his catalogue will be sold, it won't change what i stated above.

I believe in that!

 

[kreen]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

You know who else could help us? Roger Friedman. Yes, I know he's the devil incarnate to some here (unjustly, I think), but the man knows the Cascios, has access to them, is obviously interested in MJ and the new album, and could maybe arrange a Q&A, if only to prove to us the tracks are real, which he thinks they are. How about we reach him in an official manner?

 

[Jesta]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

Annie has made a lot of sense in that last post, and they basically summed up how I feel. It seems that a lot of people use tiny details and twist them, like with people saying that "Slave to the Rhythm", "Blue Gangsta" and "12 O' Clock" not being on the album proves that the Estate don't care about giving the new album the respect it deserves and wants to put a lot of fake songs on future releases. The way I see it, they don't want to put all of their eggs in one basket, spread out the killer tracks rather than have all future releases be mediocre.

The fact that Malachi's account was hacked to put that message means that he didn't put that message on there and therefore doesn't confess anything. Ergo, that argument is null and void.

 

[Aniram]

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Cascio Controversy Thread)

I don't know how you can think Privacy is a terrible song. In fact, I'm singing it to myself right now because I love that song so much. In fact, Invincible is my second favorite Michael Jackson album, Dangerous being my first.

I believe more and more, every day, that it's Michael on these tracks and these conspiracies are getting crazier every day, and I'm not one who instantly thinks all conspiracies are nuts.