Michael's Career After Thriller

[Michaels Lover]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary - Estate Announcement Page 66

I don't know about all that. I have relatives who don't listen to secular music at all, only gospel. I've known heavy metal fans who say any non-metal music is not real music. I've also known people who talk trash about any mainstream popular act and feels anyone that sells a lot is a "commercial sellout". They talk about these obscure underground goth & punk bands. They brag about some of these acts selling a few hundred copies, as this makes them real instead of popular. If an act they like happens to get mainstream popular, they stop listening to them and say they sold out.

well, people on here take posts way too literally. it's obvious those kind of people you talk about are very close minded when it comes to music. if that's their attitude, and they are so uptight, how can they even have an opinion, or even know about other music? do they even know who Michael Jackson is? no, I'm not joking. it is possible. I have met people who don't know who he is. but I don't know what their musical preferences were though, didn't ask

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary - Estate Announcement Page 66

if we are always gonna talk about what the american media did, we need to talk about media from all across the globe, because after Thriller, as a whole, his sales declined internationally too

Thriller sales 47 million copies worldwide during its initial run from 1982-1984, selling 25 million copies in America and 22 million copies internationally

Bad sold 25 million copies worldwide during its initial run from 1987-1989, selling 6-8 million copies in America and 17-19 million copies internationally

Dangerous sold 20 million copies during its initial run from 1991-1993, selling 4-6 million copies in America, and 14-16 million copies internationally

HIstory sold 15 million copies worldwide (when counting the dual discs as a single copy), selling 3-5 million copies in America, and 10-12 million copies internationally

From Thriller to Bad, by 1989, before the 90s arrived, he already lost half his fanbase, it doesn't take media outlets to point that out, the actual record sales tell the story itself

the reason why he did the Oprah interview was to boost sales of Dangerous, there was no other reason than that, by the summer of 92, the album had already fallen out of the Billboard top 100 spot, leading him to do that interview and schedule a number of public appearances to boost sales, performing at the 93 Superbowl, attending the 93 Grammys and the 93 NAACP Awards, agreeing for the Jackson's American Dream TV movie special to air at the end of 92

the media can not be blamed for everything

As someone who lives in europe im talking about all media. There is probably no more brutal media than euro and the uk prob heads that list. Yes albums sales dropped. You really expect the levels of thriller bad and dangerous (even though as mentioned by others dangerous is one of the downplayed albums) to be continued that would be ridiculous for even the biggest fan to want.but Look at the success of history after 93 had happened and considering it was a double album priced at an expensive amount compaired to other albums and considering the general amount of sales of albums at the time. To say that album was not a success because it didnt sell as much as thriller is ludicrous and the same stick the media use to belittle mjs overall success. And has been said before mjs "failures" are bigger than other artists sucesses. And thats why many would like to see docus on dangerous onwards inorder not to perpretrate the myth that mj was not successful after bad. A myth that some seem to like to push

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary - Estate Announcement Page 66

What do Thriller's sales and how they compare to the rest of MJ's albums have to do with the topic of this this thread? And what does it have to do with the topic what other documentaries of MJ's albums should be done?

After reading through the last few pages of this thread im wonderng the same. Compairing any future sales of an album to the "freak" in a good way of the success of thriller is ridiculous.that was a one off a moment in time where you could say the stars were all aligned. The fact no one has come close. No other artist has had such success confirms that. But i like the sneaky move of then saying mj lost half his fan base and no one liked him after that cause every album didnt sell like thriller. the ppl that bought thriller as a one off who probably wouldnt have classed themself as a fan didnt buy any mj album before or after thriller but were caught up in the craziness of that time suddenly became the lost half a fan base .the same ppl who might have bought mariah carey music box or celine dions big seller. Never bought a realese of those artists before or after.wouldnt really call themself a fan. I guess they deserted them and there goes half their fanbase aswell. Sounds so much better when its used as yet another stick to downplay mjs sucess or to some,lack of.. thanks for proving my point. Anyway back on topic. What was it again?

Oh and yeah paul gambacini (sp) great clip .maybe next time we can have jack perritti and his nambla friends?

 

[HIStory]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary - Estate Announcement Page 66

After reading through the last few pages of this thread im wonderng the same. Compairing any future sales of an album to the "freak" in a good way of the success of thriller is ridiculous.that was a one off a moment in time where you could say the stars were all aligned. The fact no one has come close. No other artist has had such success confirms that. But i like the sneaky move of then saying mj lost half his fan base and no one liked him after that cause every album didnt sell like thriller. the ppl that bought thriller as a one off who probably wouldnt have classed themself as a fan didnt buy any mj album before or after thriller but were caught up in the craziness of that time suddenly became the lost half a fan base .the same ppl who might have bought mariah carey music box or celine dions big seller. Never bought a realese of those artists before or after.wouldnt really call themself a fan. I guess they deserted them and there goes half their fanbase aswell. Sounds so much better when its used as yet another stick to downplay mjs sucess or to some,lack of.. thanks for proving my point. Anyway back on topic. What was it again?

OK, I just realized that the reason you brought up BBD's three day old comment again because you might not have been here while it was discussed in length two-three days ago. I am actually with you on this, but this thread has nothing to do with sales discussions of MJ's other albums, even though I too fell for BBD's derailment. I think he will continue to bring this up in various threads, because these are really his pet topics, but I think for any further discussion of it a new, seperate thread needs to be created to avoid derailments.

 

[HIStory]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary - Estate Announcement Page 66

This stuff gets blown out of proportion. There were and are SO many grammy categories. They can't broadcast everything on TV.

They only broadcast the main general ones and select ones from each genre.

It's never been a conspiracy to hide artists winning or anything.

Michaels winning category just happened to not air. They don't even air best R&B album today. Just single tracks.

Well, it is not a conspiracy against MJ personally, but it very well might have been a "conspiracy" against black music. At the time certainly black music has been unfavourably treated both on mainstream radio and at award shows.

IMO R&B is a main genre, similar to rock but it has not always got the same respect and treatment.

 

[AtlasAir]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary - Estate Announcement Page 66

Well, it is not a conspiracy against MJ personally, but it very well might have been a "conspiracy" against black music. At the time certainly black music has been unfavourably treated both on mainstream radio and at award shows.

IMO R&B is a main genre, similar to rock but it has not always got the same respect and treatment.

No no, when I say main ones I mean "record of the year", "album of the year", "song of the year", etc.

And also, they do broadcast a bit from each genre (pop, r&b, rap, rock, etc).

They can't focus on one single genre. R&B alone has several categories. I think they usually show 2 or 3 from that alone.

Also, in the case of MJ, he wasn't MICHAEL JACKSON SUPER DUPER STAR during Off The Wall, so they weren't capitalizing really on him showing up on stage I guess.

Just sayin'. They do a diverse mix for the broadcast.

Though, I do wish they would show certain categories on TV that they don't. Best comedy album, best music video, and one of the electronic/dance categories should be shown on tv. You'd think they would jump on the EDM craze and showcase one of the dance categories, but whatever.

 

[HIStory]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary - Estate Announcement Page 66

No no, when I say main ones I mean "record of the year", "album of the year", "song of the year", etc.

And also, they do broadcast a bit from each genre (pop, r&b, rap, rock, etc).

They can't focus on one single genre. R&B alone has several categories. I think they usually show 2 or 3 from that alone.

Also, in the case of MJ, he wasn't MICHAEL JACKSON SUPER DUPER STAR during Off The Wall, so they weren't capitalizing really on him showing up on stage I guess.

Just sayin'. They do a diverse mix for the broadcast.

Though, I do wish they would show certain categories on TV that they don't. Best comedy album, best music video, and one of the electronic/dance categories should be shown on tv. You'd think they would jump on the EDM craze and showcase one of the dance categories, but whatever.

I don't necessarily think the injustice in 1979 was in the Grammys not showing on TV the best R&B performance on a song category. The injustice was more in not even nominating OTW in any of the main categories. He might not have been the super duper star at the time but he DID have one of the best and most successful albums of the year. And today that album has a lot more lasting relevance and impact than any of the albums or artists awarded big time during that award show.

Of course, Grammy history is full of screw-ups like that, so it's not specifically againts Michael Jackson, but I do think he had it more difficult to get himself acknowledged than if he was white. Let's not forget this either:

He literally had to produce the biggest selling album of all times to finally get his due credit by the industry...

TBH in Gaga's defence, after Artpop (2013) didn't do so as well, she's been much more low-key in the music industry. She revealed that in 2013 she had actually been quite depressed for sometime and I remember reading around the time that she wanted to shift her focus on what she wanted to do, not what critics or even fans wanted her to do (essentially meaning she didn't want to really focus on modern pop).

...

Gaga IMO has been focusing on such side-projects lately because her lost commercially aimed album flopped. I think she probably realized what she's been doing does not work for her any more and now is trying to reinvent herself, her music and her image now as a "serious artist" instead of just some pop fad, and I think she does have the talent to do that. I also remember when Adele's 21 was released and blew up big many people pointed out how that means people are fed up with "gimmick artists such as Gaga" (Gaga was often used as kind of the negative antidote to Adele). I guess Gaga realizes that now and is trying reinvent herself. I think the Bowie tribute is probably one step on that way. I guess her new album will be pretty different to her past commercial albums too.

But this is not really about that. I simply object to the claim that out of the five tributing MJ only Usher was a big star. Well, Celine Dion has two diamond albums, how is she not a big name artist? 2010 might not have been her prime, but 2016 isn't Gaga's either. Although of course Gaga is younger than Celine, so she will probably do more to turn that decline around - and she may even succeed. I also don't think Smokey Robinson is someone to piss on either. He's not a huge selling artist but that's because of the genre he's been in. He has been a pretty influential artist, actually. And let's not forget you do not have to be a big seller to be a significant or great artist. Bowie himself has never been a big seller. There are many ways to be huge (not just sales and whether someone is the hype of the moment) and any tribute by any artist (big or small, hip or not) can be nice, especially when it's an unexpected tribute as this one is now.

Many Bowie fans are not all that happy about Gaga tributing him. Many would prefer some rock artist or something because they do not think Gaga is a credible artist to tribute Bowie. So there will always be people in each fandom who are unsatisfied with such things.

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary - Estate Announcement Page 66

I don't necessarily think the injustice in 1979 was in the Grammys not showing on TV the best R&B performance on a song category. The injustice was more in not even nominating OTW in any of the main categories. He might not have been the super duper star at the time but he DID have one of the best and most successful albums of the year. And today that album has a lot more lasting relevance and impact than any of the albums or artists awarded big time during that award show.

Of course, Grammy history is full of screw-ups like that, so it's not specifically againts Michael Jackson, but I do think he had it more difficult to get himself acknowledged than if he was white. Let's not forget this either:

He literally had to produce the biggest selling album of all times to finally get his due credit by the industry...

Michael Jackson was already a showbiz legend before OTW and Thriller

he was already the leading recording artist/entertainer by black america during OTW's run

 

[HIStory]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary - Estate Announcement Page 66

Michael Jackson was already a showbiz legend before OTW and Thriller

he was already the leading recording artist/entertainer by black america during OTW's run

MJ's goal wasn't just to be the leading artist for black America.

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

Was Michael pulled away from his black audience?

MJ's goal wasn't just to be the leading artist for black America.

Thats not what Im saying, the problem of this whole story, is that when he did reach what turned out to be his career pinnacle with Thriller, the problem was he was pulled away from black america and this is why his black audience who supported him during those formative years did not and does not hold his latter work in the same esteem as OTW and Thriller

If the balance had remained, that would not be the case today

 

[barbee0715]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary - Estate Announcement Page 66

Yep. That's the one.
I understand that he apologized afterwards.
Good.

Ha! I saw that and didnt remember it was Miguel. That WAS ugly. He looked like he broke that girls neck.

 

[HIStory]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary - Estate Announcement Page 66

Thats not what Im saying, the problem of this whole story, is that when he did reach what turned out to be his career pinnacle with Thriller, the problem was he was pulled away from black america and this is why his black audience who supported him during those formative years did not and does not hold his latter work in the same esteem as OTW and Thriller

If the balance had remained, that would not be the case today

Can you even talk about anything else than MJ betraying his black audience? :smilerolleyes: It's boooooring that you go on and on and on about this one point all the time no matter what the actual topic is. It's like a broken record at this point.

 

[innuendo141]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary - Estate Announcement Page 66

Can you even talk about anything else than MJ betraying his black audience? :smilerolleyes: It's boooooring that you go on and on and on about this one point all the time no matter what the actual topic is. It's like a broken record at this point.

I'm sorry but I must say this is quite tiresome.

I've no idea what race you are BBD but your posts seem to suggest that when he "turned his back on black America" the white people ruined his career influencing what went on.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary - Estate Announcement Page 66

The ignore button comes in handy folks. It then gets boring inciting yourself after a while cause no one else is listening

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary - Estate Announcement Page 66

Can you even talk about anything else than MJ betraying his black audience? :smilerolleyes: It's boooooring that you go on and on and on about this one point all the time no matter what the actual topic is. It's like a broken record at this point.

If u read what I just said, I said he was pulled away from his black audience, it is what it is but it never had to be

I can talk on any subject, all his albums, performances alike from 1979-2009, but this is the one topic almost every does not want to talk about because its too uncomfortable, because we know from Bad on, the majority if his support was non black, when there could have been a perfect balance

 

[OnirMJ]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary - Estate Announcement Page 66

lolz. Nobody's estate hired anyone to sing a tribute to anyone at an awards show.

lolz. Yes it was his idea. And he told the Grammys I'm performing Michael Jackson's song from the album his Estate is re-issuing this month and I'm doing it for free. lolz. That's not how things work out. He was hired by the Estate and Grammys or just Grammys but with the approval of the Estate. It's actually promo for album re-release and Spike Lee's doc and usually promotion is being paid by record company so it is possible that Epic Records/Sony Music hired him.

 

[HIStory]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary - Estate Announcement Page 66

If u read what I just said, I said he was pulled away from his black audience, it is what it is but it never had to be

I can talk on any subject, all his albums, performances alike from 1979-2009, but this is the one topic almost every does not want to talk about because its too uncomfortable, because we know from Bad on, the majority if his support was non black, when there could have been a perfect balance

No. People do not want to talk about this because you derail each and every thread with this. It's been discussed to death anyway and people may just not agree with you. That's life. But if you want to keep discussing this - and only this - then please create a seperate thread for it instead of trying to hijack every thread with it.

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary - Estate Announcement Page 66

No. People do not want to talk about this because you derail each and every thread with this. It's been discussed to death anyway and people may just not agree with you. That's life. But if you want to keep discussing this - and only this - then please create a seperate thread for it instead of trying to hijack every thread with it.

That is true

That is life and why everything ended prematurely

I really did not know starting a thread about this subject was allowed

As I responded earlier, this is not the only subject I talk about

 

[HIStory]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary - Estate Announcement Page 66

I really did not know starting a thread about this subject was allowed

And what makes you think derailing every thread with this same subject is allowed then?

 

[innuendo141]

Re: Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary - Estate Announcement Page 66

That is true

That is life and why everything ended prematurely

I really did not know starting a thread about this subject was allowed

As I responded earlier, this is not the only subject I talk about

Well you certainly do enjoy talking about how Michael being "pulled away" from his black roots to the evil white side which killed him.

Absolute nonsense and I'll be taking the above advice of our fellow boarder and put you on ignore if I see you try and derail another topic with how Michael should have stuck to Making Thriller sequels so "black america" would continue to embrace him and he would never die and each album would outsell the previous Thriller sequel.

 

[KOPV]

Re: Was Michael pulled away from his black audience?

Michael never tried to be a 'black' artist... Why would any true artist want to be put in a box like that?? He wanted to reach everyone and sell as much as possible.. And he did that!

he made music for mankind... not for any group of people.. He was too great for 1 group to claim as there own.. He was everyones

 

[analogue]

Re: Was Michael pulled away from his black audience?

''Music is colorblind'' - Michael Jackson

 

[barbee0715]

Re: Was Michael pulled away from his black audience?

I'm interested in this because I see these fights all the time on YouTube comments. I'm ashamed to say that I've even been in a few when the comments get crazy racist.
But speaking of his music, there's an interview with him in the new OTW doc in the mid 70s where he's saying he wants his music to reach all over the world. "All the way to Australia."

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

Re: Was Michael pulled away from his black audience?

Michael never tried to be a 'black' artist... Why would any true artist want to be put in a box like that?? He wanted to reach everyone and sell as much as possible.. And he did that!

he made music for mankind... not for any group of people.. He was too great for 1 group to claim as there own.. He was everyones

The issue is not about a figure being an artist of one race, that dont just apply to Michael Jackson but all artists, if ones talent can receive the support of multiple cultures, thats a great achievement, thats not the issue.....that's never been the issue

Even the black fans who supported Michael and the Jackson five from day one did not try to inhibit that

The issue is that with Thriller, he had the perfect balance of his black support along with the support of other cultures nationally and around the globe

That all changed when Bad was released because thats when the problems started because while he garned a new body of fans, his black audience was no longer acknowledged and was no longer a focus

And to maintain the support of the audience who made his global success possible should not be viewed as being put in a box because without that support, there never would have been a Bad, Dangerous, or History albums

There has been a plethora of artists who made music for mankind but did not lose their foundational support

And the question is now asked why doesnt his later albums like Dangerous and Invincible hasn't received the same level of acclaim as OTW and Thriller, thats why

The message in of itself was consistent and should always be appreciated, its the way the message was presented after those formative years thats the issue.

I realize its a very uncomfortable issue but unfortunately, it exists

 

[Tony R]

Re: Was Michael pulled away from his black audience?

There's an obvious answer to this, but it makes the thread more uncomfortable.

He didn't explain the reason for his changing skin colour until 1993 and until then many believed he didn't want to be black hence he lost a lot of black fans.

Also, he became a massive mainstream artist and that inevitably meant more white fans.

In any way, it matters not if he had a black, white, female, male, gay or straight audience.

As someone once said, who's name I can't remember, "it don't matter if you're black or white".

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

Re: Was Michael pulled away from his black audience?

There's an obvious answer to this, but it makes the thread more uncomfortable.

He didn't explain the reason for his changing skin colour until 1993 and until then many believed he didn't want to be black hence he lost a lot of black fans.

Also, he became a massive mainstream artist and that inevitably meant more white fans.

In any way, it matters not if he had a black, white, female, male, gay or straight audience.

As someone once said, who's name I can't remember, "it don't matter if you're black or white".

It should not matter if one is black or white un the context relating to the history of race, but it does matter how you try and act on that


So by saying becoming massive mainstream resulted in more white fans, why is it set up that way, why cant going massive mainstream mean more of all cultures including those of his own culture

 

[Tony R]

Re: Was Michael pulled away from his black audience?

It should not matter if one is black or white un the context relating to the history of race, but it does matter how you try and act on that


So by saying becoming massive mainstream resulted in more white fans, why is it set up that way, why cant going massive mainstream mean more of all cultures including those of his own culture

I mean that if the majority of the public is white then by going mainstream you're going to attract a lot more white fans. Same with artists such as Shakira or even J-Lo, as they broke through their cultural boundaries from a Hispanic fanbase they inevitably had a noticeably more white audience.

 

[Tony R]

“The white masses picked up on Motown generally, but more on him because he was a kid, he was sparky, he was amazing for his age and that took him across to the pop market. By the time he was the ‘King of Pop,’ nobody thought of Michael Jackson as either a black artist or a white artist. He could get played on pop radio and on MTV in the States.
“He could break through those kind of barriers, whereas people like Luther Vandross they wouldn’t play him on pop radio. Luther Vandross never had a pop number one, as gentle as he was, and his music wasn’t scary or anything. It was just decent quality soul music with a commercial edge.

http://www.mjvibe.com/michael-jackson-on-the-cover-of-echoes/

New article to coincide with OTW re-release.
.

 

[Bringing Brighter Days]

“The white masses picked up on Motown generally, but more on him because he was a kid, he was sparky, he was amazing for his age and that took him across to the pop market. By the time he was the ‘King of Pop,’ nobody thought of Michael Jackson as either a black artist or a white artist. He could get played on pop radio and on MTV in the States.
“He could break through those kind of barriers, whereas people like Luther Vandross they wouldn’t play him on pop radio. Luther Vandross never had a pop number one, as gentle as he was, and his music wasn’t scary or anything. It was just decent quality soul music with a commercial edge.

http://www.mjvibe.com/michael-jackson-on-the-cover-of-echoes/

New article to coincide with OTW re-release.
.

Thats the issue, pop radio has the platform to dictate who they feel can go mainstream, and when they incorporate you into its realm it does not acknowledge your original audience or your true identity, and that person gets pulled away

 

[barbee0715]

What happened here? Did the thread opened and closed down yesterday just get renamed with a new title? Was this done by a moderator? Is it OK to post here?